Permissions Menu only visible if Locked suggestion

[Ohgie 12]

After a very frustrating lesson in which I learned that carts, wagons, ship security is primarily based on the presence of a lock, I need to suggest a change to prevent others some frustration. Right now, If a vehicle is not locked, NO other settings (permissions, deed settings ...) will protect the vehicle. If this is the case, why does a cart even have the permissions menu visible if there is no lock. 

 

I propose a code change that ONLY makes permissions menu available if the vehicle is locked. 

 

This is a simple IF/THEN flag check and would not take any time to code, nor would it put any strain on the program in any way. 

 

What this change would do, is reduce the frustration from the inconsistency. EVERY other container item, if on deed with correct deed settings can not be opened or molested in any way. Yet, carts do not function this way. Worse the cart teases the ignorant into believing permissions matter (I know they do if a lock exists but they are useless without a lock). 

 

Finally, for a non pvp server, with a very strict non griefing policy, I fail to understand how allowing people to run around stealing vehicles from deeded property (vehicles that even state the owner right on them) is not considered griefing. I have heard the arguments of "just put a lock on it" but that does not provide any justification why this form of griefing is allowed on any non pvp server. 

[Omgderp 185]

Agreed.

[Nomadikhan 2,196]

+1

[Zahl 35]

+1 indeed

 

the Zahl agree

[Odynn 2,248]

+1 - always lock all your vehicles. An ingame reminder like that would be perfect.

[Ohgie 12]

I further question why the manage settings even has an option to set new owners name. This seems like an effort that is in opposition to the mandatory lock setting. If your vehicle is locked, by you, it should not matter at all who owns the vehicle as that has no bearing in the game. Only the ownership of a key matters. In fact I propose an experiment. Lock a vehicle, give ownership (but not the key) to a friend and see if they can open or drive it. Of course with a lock on it, the original owner can set permissions. What if they set permissions so no one can ride/mount/open but then they give the cart ownership to someone else without the key? 

 

I guess I really need clarification on how ownership, permissions, lock/key, deed settings are working together instead of being either redundant or one of these rendering the others useless. I know each of these things are on the wiki and I have read through them many times now. I question why so many different "security" options if the only thing that matters is if it is locked and if you have the key. All that other junk does not apply. Ownership especially seems to have no real purpose other than to change settings (which again have no effect unless the cart is locked). 

 

Can anyone share this set up in some logical way that justifies these inconsistencies? I know they are they way they are, I am just questioning why this needs to be so complicated.

 

Personally I would remove locks on carts, boats, and wagons as the ownership tag should suffice enough to determine who sets the permissions. Permissions, not locks, should determine who can access. Locks on vehicles have no functional use. Permissions should determine who can access the vehicle and only the owner should be able to set those. Poof, nice and simple and no obscure setup that needs pages of a wiki and much frustration for even a noob to figure out. 

[Onyr 185]

+1 and sorry for your loss of equippment today. 

 

Its a nice idea.  Even a bolded reminder on the Management window:

 

THIS CART HAS NO LOCK

PERMISSIONS INACTIVE

 

And anytime we can make the learning curve a little less painful for new players, Wurm wins in the end.

 

Theria.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Onyr

[Quistis 4]

Totally agree. +1

Sometimes I see carts and people asking if they seen 1 that's gone missing,

Pointless having a no theft rule system if people can abuse your carts etc.

[Jibberish 410]

+1

[Othob Rithol 700]

I've often thought that these items, on non-pvp servers, should just automatically have a lock or need a lock to be completed so that this scenario never arises.

[Lisabet 1,016]

I further question why the manage settings even has an option to set new owners name. This seems like an effort that is in opposition to the mandatory lock setting. If your vehicle is locked, by you, it should not matter at all who owns the vehicle as that has no bearing in the game. Only the ownership of a key matters. In fact I propose an experiment. Lock a vehicle, give ownership (but not the key) to a friend and see if they can open or drive it. Of course with a lock on it, the original owner can set permissions. What if they set permissions so no one can ride/mount/open but then they give the cart ownership to someone else without the key? 

 

I guess I really need clarification on how ownership, permissions, lock/key, deed settings are working together instead of being either redundant or one of these rendering the others useless. I know each of these things are on the wiki and I have read through them many times now. I question why so many different "security" options if the only thing that matters is if it is locked and if you have the key. All that other junk does not apply. Ownership especially seems to have no real purpose other than to change settings (which again have no effect unless the cart is locked). 

 

Can anyone share this set up in some logical way that justifies these inconsistencies? I know they are they way they are, I am just questioning why this needs to be so complicated.

 

Personally I would remove locks on carts, boats, and wagons as the ownership tag should suffice enough to determine who sets the permissions. Permissions, not locks, should determine who can access. Locks on vehicles have no functional use. Permissions should determine who can access the vehicle and only the owner should be able to set those. Poof, nice and simple and no obscure setup that needs pages of a wiki and much frustration for even a noob to figure out. 

 

If I transfer ownership of my locked cart to you, but not the key, you will have full access to the cart.  I have done this before, and had it done for me.

 

*edit* in fact I currently have a cart that was transferred to me without the key, and it works fine; the permissions I set on it are valid.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Lisabet

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

I further question why the manage settings even has an option to set new owners name. This seems like an effort that is in opposition to the mandatory lock setting. If your vehicle is locked, by you, it should not matter at all who owns the vehicle as that has no bearing in the game. Only the ownership of a key matters. In fact I propose an experiment. Lock a vehicle, give ownership (but not the key) to a friend and see if they can open or drive it. Of course with a lock on it, the original owner can set permissions. What if they set permissions so no one can ride/mount/open but then they give the cart ownership to someone else without the key?  

Edited December 5, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors

[Pashka 707]

Another thing to remember on the owner's name.  If I own a boat, I can get it off a deeded tile.  If I do not own it, I cannot drag/push/pull it if it is stuck. 

[Ohgie 12]

we need to keep the option to set a new owners name. It's actually far more important than the key itself. 

 

I always lose my cart/boat keys because they really are not very important. (Most people stick them in the bank k then forget them). If a cart or boat if locked, I can transfer the ownership to another player without giving them the key. They can then set whatever permissions they want -- everyone, nobody etc, or sell it to another person and transfer ownership again. they do not need a key to do this. The cart/boat can go through 20 different ownerrs, none of who own a key, all can set permissions then sell it again. . It's almost like a door lock, you don;t really EVER need a key at all. (Maybe a mine door is a better example.)

 

I usually hide my key only because if someone finds the key and finds the boat/cart, they can access the hold. But they still cannot drive it or sell it. I think all of my cart and boat keys are long ago lost, except I kept the knarr key in case I sold it and buyer insisted on a key. that one is in my bank. I have probably lost 20 boat and cart keys over the years. None of it seems to have any impact (except if someone found a kkey and happened to find the right vehicle and it happened to have something valuable inside. )

 

So many keys out there. I also have a bowl of about 100 mystery keys.

 

Brash Lisabet both pointed out that after the lock is on the vehicle, the ownership can transfer all over the place with the ability to set permissions being assigned to the new owner each time. I am assuming that the new owner does not need to put a new lock on and the new owner does not even need the key? If that is that case, I bring up my question again, what is the practical function on a non pvp server of having a lock on a vehicle? If the game simplified vehicles to "Only owners can set permissions on vehicles and no one can accesses the vehicle as driver, passenger or the hold unless the owner has correctly set permissions to do so." This one change eliminates much confusion and streamlines game play, especially for new users. I am not sure what is lost by removing the current requirement that a lock must be put on for any permissions to work. It is not apparent to me how the lock requirement increases the game play experience nor does the absence of a lock requirement seen to deter the game play in any way. The permissions mechanic should simply tied to ownership. 

[Othob Rithol 700]

Simple, the code is shared between PvP and non-PvP with the prior taking priority in a ll things. You found another reason why about 5% of suggestions threads end in exclamations of "separate the code!"

[Ayes 3,715]

Locks on large carts and the settings that they then enable work perfectly fine as is and serve useful purposes, which should not be changed just because someone fails to put a large padlock on their cart.

 

The problem is with the person not doing this. So to help them avoid this mistake perhaps the final step to complete a large cart should require a large padlock to be attached to it. Otherwise maybe just a warning pops up like when completing a boat about a lock and mooring anchor, only for a large cart just the large padlock.

 

Still, too much handholding within the game in an attempt to protect players from every negative consequence such as this, I do not see as a good thing. Wurm is a learning experience gained over time. Mistakes will be made and the wise person will learn to take more responsibility to protect themselves in the future because of them, or maybe not.

 

=Ayes=

[KunAlt 844]

If I transfer ownership of my locked cart to you, but not the key, you will have full access to the cart.  I have done this before, and had it done for me.

 

*edit* in fact I currently have a cart that was transferred to me without the key, and it works fine; the permissions I set on it are valid.

 

You know that the person holding the key can at any time remove the lock rendering the cart open for anyone right?

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

there are 4536253425364 mystery keys scattered about on freedom and a potential of about 75643 large carts they might (or might not) fit.

 

While there is a small chance the person who gave Lisabet her keyless cart, intended all along to sneak back later with the key and break into it, it's a pretty slim chance.

 

Personally I'd rather they all worked just like Mine Doors -- require the construction to include a door lock (NO key), once the lock is on then owner can set permissions, or transfer the ownership.

 

I like Mine Doors. Something in Wurm that works real nice  In fact just call all locks "a lock", whether they are for a boat or house or cart or mine of fence gate. No keys as the game seems to track ownership and be capable of setting permissions with a rightclick. I hate keys anyway. We can pretend they are ... i dunno, Magical Locks. 

 

I don't know the pvp angles but surely as long as they can still lockpick any lock, they are happy?

 

(Yes i know, It Dumbs Down The Game, which I am generally opposed to unless it includes getting rid of all the keys i own now, once owned, owned but lost, found and kept in case one day i found what it opened, etc.

 

I bet some dev could tell us exactly how many keys exist in Wurm, and I bet it is a shocking number.

 

And I bet plenty enough are ones I lost. Or found.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors

[Lisabet 1,016]

You know that the person holding the key can at any time remove the lock rendering the cart open for anyone right?

I am well aware of that; however that person is on my friends list, moved to xanadu, and apparently quit.  So...yeah.  I'm not saying it's an ideal situation, I'm pointing out that the lock on the cart does not affect the owners abilities.

[Ayes 3,715]

Personally I'd rather they all worked just like Mine Doors -- require the construction to include a door lock (NO key), once the lock is on then owner can set permissions, or transfer the ownership.