Feedback wanted from PlayerAuctions

[Zetuka 118]

According to the mail, i already broke the rule:

 

This email is to inform you that your account has been identified for violation of PlayerAuctions policy for the first time. For any pending orders, PlayerAuctions will process the necessary refunds within 3 working days. 

To reactivate your account, please acknowledge your understanding and acceptance of our policy by replying this email. 

 

I just subscribed to the website yesterday, nothing else. I wanted to go buy a gnome today lol and i am suspended. I hope playeraution got a good reason...

[zarkadi 23]

I create an acount and bought 2 gnomes! all the proccess was ok, i entered my information, they send me a text message with a code to veriffy my phone number and that was it! now i have 2 gnomes! it's good to have a third option for buying stuff and i think it is usefull if you want to buy a character from someone you don't trust since you can get a refund if something goes wrong! just don't make it the only way to buy stuff!!!! 

[tgod 456]

Did you try to contact their live chat? Maybe they have an answer at least..

Finally got it to work, seems like an ok system for buying.  Waiting for delivery now.

Edited November 24, 2014 by tgod

[Rolf 3,563]

Thanks for all the feedback positive and negative everyone and also for letting PlayerAuctions (Jacob) answer some of your concerns.

 

We are offering PlayerAuctions as an option, not a replacement. We are not getting a kickback - I am interested in doing this for various other reasons such as:

 

Raising awareness about payment issues in order to create a brighter future for digital goods.

Offering existing players a safe marketplace without replacing the current ones which scale poorly if we grow.

Getting people using PlayerAuctions to try Wurm out.

We are not going to move our official sales there - we may use it for similar rare item sales since it's what it's designed for and it worked well. They do not have any exclusivity regarding those at all.

 

 

I don't agree with PlayerAuctions if they claim that you have the right to digital assets tied to your account if you are banned. I don't have to agree with them on everything right now. That may be a standpoint they have to take publically even if they understand that games must ban people and confiscate accounts but it's not something they can do anything about anyways.

 

 

The ToS discussion is weird in that you fervently defend them as if they were words from God. In Sweden we have a saying: "the opportunity makes the thief". Most people may encounter a situation where they do not consider an illegal or obligated action to be that bad and even defendable. Stealing disinfectants to save someones leg may be a crime which no courts in Western Europe would act upon.

 

Now, what most large MMO's have created is a situation where a lot of people think that the transgression they make (selling gold, accounts or items against ToS) is of limited moral liability and sometimes I'm sure even defendable. The risk versus reward becomes too low.

 

I can only agree that those games would work better if everyone followed ToS but fact remains that those games are or have usually been very easy to bot or macro, they don't do enough server side input verification or even trust the game clients, which causes a heaven for cheaters. So I feel screwed when I play those games because the cheaters win and they don't even have to feel bad morally. We too have failed in those respects at times but we have really tried hard all the way from the start. Our fatigue system is in place so that bots can't outplay humans and we have situations where you gain no skill if you act like a bot. Apart from our manual detection systems performed by the GM's we have a couple of others in place.

 

Basically the ToS you defend have often been on the cheaters side because it limits those who follow them but it was a paradise on the other side. This has caused too big a gap between cheating and staying clean for people with a bit of knowledge which I must say is expected although a bit sad. I dislike such systems because I hate cheating and when it's not acted upon. That said I can understand those who cheat. I blame the control mechanisms or a stupid ToS.

 

Now I'm not going to say "go break our Eula" because that would only get you banned. Our EULA is for the protection of Code Club and there to make sure any cheaters we catch don't have a case. We do our best to follow up on hacks and macros and we have removed the stress of disallowing your sales of virtual goods and accounts. My intention has always been that we should code how we think things should work instead of making you sign stuff that limits what we think is normal gameplay.

 

But yes, I do think breaking the ToS of other games is not nice. It's not like dealing drugs or shooting Rhinos though. It's just a bit too high risk versus reward for some people. If it's immoral is up to you. I think it's immoral to set up a system that limits the ordinary man on a large scale but doesn't attempt to catch the cheaters.

[Kegan 3,926]

Well it does upset me a little about the exclusive things being only sold there but i can see your reasoning for it too. You don't have to change the website/shop you can simply make a post about it and be done with it. I did like the gnome i hope we see even more of these in time they are fun and not game breaking items. 

 

I also hope this kind of showed you that we will buy vanity/decorative items and that it is something you could expand on to gain more development money over time.  (i would appreciate it more if it was offered in your own store though)

Edited November 24, 2014 by Kegan

[Rolf 3,563]

Btw it's not 50 new gnomes listed now - a player wanted to buy those remaining ones but for some reason the order was cancelled.

[Pashka 707]

I will not sign up for the site but would love another option to purchase items.  Perhaps token? Perhaps trader? Perhaps just from your shop.  I wanted a gnome but I refuse to give a site with as many troubles as they have any of my information.

[Audrel 2,223]

Thank you for your honest reply, Rolf. Since we both dislike cheaters, we have a common ground. :-) I'm glad we do. Wurm is a love-hate relationship for me. I love it. I hate it. I love to hate it. I hate to love it. That's why I want it to not be harmed. I hope you see my negative comments as just this.

 

EDIT: I think I left one out. I hate to hate it too. That's why I defend it.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Audrel

[Lithien 268]

Thank you for your detailed explanation Rolf. I don't have to agree with you on all things, but it eliminates all the "WTF is he thinking!"

 

And I will admit, that I never considered how inadequate the forums would be for selling/buying if the player base was much larger, and I am sure everyone wants it to grow

 

Now, that is as much as I can handle admitting today (and I still don't like PA)

[tgod 456]

 

 

Received my first order fine.  Went to order a decent amount of gnomes and got the email below with the attached form below that.  Why should I have to do all this verification past the phone verification if im using paypal to pay?  Playerauctions took the money but still wanted all this info.  -1 Pass

 

 

 

 

Hello,
 
Greetings from PlayerAuctions!
 
Before we can process your order, please print and fill-up (handwritten) the attached IDENTITY VERIFICATION FORM and send it tocompliance2@playerauctions.com, if you do not have access to a printer you can fill-up the form using ADOBE XI(download herehttp://get.adobe.com/reader/) or visit this website https://www.pdfescape.com/, it is an online tool to fill up a PDF form. 
This verification process is in-line with the government’s effort in fighting Money Laundering Activities and funding of terrorism. We assure you that in accordance with our privacy policy and existing laws your information will not be shared or sold to any third parties with the exception of official government legal entities if necessary.
 
Below are the valid IDs:
1.    Digital copy or photo of your government issued photo ID and with you holding the ID. (Drivers license or Passport that also states your postal address).
       - NO Military ID / school/university IDs or links from image hosting websites.
2.    Fixed Line Phone Number where we can reach you
3.    Entire copy or photo of your most recent billing or utility statement with your name and current address shown on it. (We will not accept photocopies or with any erasures or any object blocking information on the document.)  
4.    Most convenient time to call you
 
Please make sure that the documents are valid, colored and very clear for us to see.
 
If you are not comfortable in providing us the requirements, we recommend you cancel the order and reorder again using the payment method the payment methods below:
   
1.    Western Union- our pick up time is at 3PM, Monday to Friday +8 GMT or Midnight PST.
RECIPIENT INFORMATION
First name: Ka Nai
Last name: Tsang
Country: Hong Kong
City: Hong Kong

Please note paying via Western Union using your Debit card you will need to call your bank to authorize the transfer, if you paid Western Union via Bank Transfer there is a 3-5 business days before the transfer will go through.

 2. Skrill Bank Transfer -  it will take 3- 5 banking days for your payment to be received.

Should you have any general inquiries about our services or website or accounts, please don't hesitate to visit www.PlayerAuctions.com and login to our live chat support.
 
Regards,
Edwin
The PlayerAuctions Compliance Department

 

www.PlayerAuctions.com

 

[Farmerbob 369]

Rolf,

 

It seems as if you're in a mood to try to create a bit of change, stir some things up a bit, and I agree with most of what you're saying.

 

You're also right that Playerauctions isn't selling kids into slavery or other dark and atrocious things. 

 

The problem is that the only time when it makes any sense at all to try to use organizations with questionable morality to _improve_ the world is when you are dealing with things like selling kids into slavery.  If you associate with Playerauctions, you tarnish yourself, you don't make what they do more attractive.

 

If you really want to make a change, disassociate yourself from Playerauctions and create your own auction/sales site.  I would be surprised if you can't find a cheap, almost off-the-shelf solution being offered by a reputable business that you could put on it's own domain.

 

Then find a couple other indy developers that are thinking like you, invite them onboard, and start your revolution.

[RockyBalboa 565]

All i would says.... Make ingame auction houses at spawns and sell your gnomes.... That is what we need no 3th party help

[Alec 727]

All i would says.... Make ingame auction houses at spawns and sell your gnomes.... That is what we need no 3th party help

 

I don't know exactly how CC coders work, but with any single decent programmer can do that in "3 - 5 banking days".

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

I bought a gnome and had no problems with the transaction.  They asked a little more from me than usual, but no more than Paypal did when I verified my account with them.  Never thought I'd buy a useless item, but you found my weakness with gnomes.

 

To all those who are being negative, if you don't like it don't use it.  Rolf is giving a new business a chance and trying to ease himself of any 'legal entanglements' with player trading.  By the very nature of the business you have the right to be suspicious, but unless you have some real problems yourself anything you say is speculation.  And of course they are going to ask for more personal information for larger purchases.  They are trying to provide a guarantee that you will get what you pay for, and that means they protect themselves from losses too.  Get real people, how would you protect yourself financially if you tried to run a business of this nature?

[Wurmhole 3,650]

So I did it. Signed up. Wasn't going to, but the lure of a "Green Reaper" (Am I the first to give it the name?) Gnome was too much, lol. I gabbed some to decorate and also 1 gold.  Transactions were very smooth. Delivery in 1-2 minutes at most.  Left 5star feedback for seller.

 

Would I use this again? Yes, if I had to for another fun item, not available elsewhere. 

 

I would prefer on the Wurm shop, but had no troubles going to PA for this deal.

 

-Wurmhole

[Coastis 321]

Stuffs

 

Whilst i don't agree with it you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but perhaps if you had posted that in the first place you wouldn't have cause to forum ban me and others for asking questions in a feedback thread.

 

P.S. i would've doubled the size of my gnome army if i could buy them via the wurm shop.

[Atlas 363]

Whilst i don't agree with it you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but perhaps if you had posted that in the first place you wouldn't have cause to forum ban me and others for asking questions in a feedback thread.

 

P.S. i would've doubled the size of my gnome army if i could buy them via the wurm shop.

More 2-way communication is *always* better.

 

Can we do an AMA?

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/114262-rolf-and-code-club-ama-in-nov-or-dec/

[Kagrenac 812]

 

 

 

Received my first order fine.  Went to order a decent amount of gnomes and got the email below with the attached form below that.  Why should I have to do all this verification past the phone verification if im using paypal to pay?  Playerauctions took the money but still wanted all this info.  -1 Pass

See

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/114214-feedback-wanted-from-playerauctions/?p=1166838

[icbash 352]

I been watching and reading this post for days and tell the truth... it makes me sick...

mods deleting post that do mater and are on topic tell the truth if it dont become a open post like it should be.. and player-auction keeps geting pushed ill be leaving wurm .... its not worth me handing that much info out to play wurm i can go else where and hand out far less and have same amount of fun...  and wurm has such promise ...sigh

 

sad to see ya even starting to think of getting in bed with this vipers..

 

ps yes i did look into them... not just no but hell no... i want no part of them...

[Ayes 3,715]

Thanks for all the feedback positive and negative everyone and also for letting PlayerAuctions (Jacob) answer some of your concerns.

[content linked]

 

Well it was interesting to read your point of view on points brought up by others within this thread, as well as your reasoning behind linking up with PA. Still, on the whole I think it a bad idea since they support ToS violation of other games and provide a market for others who do the same. You can set the regulations pertaining to Wurm but should respect other gaming companies rules as well. Your endorsement and affiliation with PA is contrary to that.

 

Now on to what a few others have pointed out concerning additional identity documentation being required in certain cases. PA is simply processing credit/debit card transactions, not opening international banking accounts where this type of documentation is required in *most* countries under FINCEN regulations pressured upon them by the USA. Totally unnecessary and in no way required by PA to do these common type of credit/debit card transactions. Never would I provide this type of documentation to a credit/debit card processer.

 

Due to the insight of the Wurm player base as a whole, this reaction against a Wurm association with PA has been made understandable in some insightful posts by others. Lacking this naiveté acceptance of a positive relationship with PA, I think in the future not much good will come of it and hopefully players will continue on the most part to do their transactions here within the forum sections pertaining to them.

 

The new styled gnomes were a good lure simply because of their limited numbers which are not being offered elsewhere. I think if not for this restriction the PA website would have had very little interaction from the Wurm player base. I think a better approach would be to offer items like this within the Wurm Shop with the restriction of one per premium account to give everyone an option to purchase one without resellers buying up higher quantities. As usual a bit of forethought applied to these issues can yield more equitable results. 

 

=Ayes=

[Lostone 93]

I can See Rolf point , you get more people looking at you selling stuff on Ebay then your local paper only .

But i hate cheaters , scammers , bots and hacks , there is no faster way to destroy a game then that.

The site your dealing with actualy helps all the things i listed as hating , they are helping to destroy good mmos.

 

True i do not have to use  the site , but just please be carefull it dosent tarnish Wurm or you in the long run.

[RockyBalboa 565]

where are your gnomes and coins i cant see em'

[Wurmhole 3,650]

where are your gnomes and coins i cant see em'

Gnomes and coins are sold out.  Expect green gnomes to start showing up in Wurm forums for sale, now that they are gone here.

[Wurmhole 3,650]

I know I got the very last gnome and coin.  I checked after my purchase and they were gone.  I specifically want to get the last ones, so I can see if more magically appeared, which would have been a huge red flag, but all went as it should.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Wurmhole

[Stormblade 614]

Went to sign up, honestly was more info that I was comfortable in giving them. I understand the need for verification, processing and all of that to protect the buyer and seller, but again, just personally, was more info than I was willing to give.  ( I mean amazon doesn't even ask for a digital picture of you holding your ID )

 

I will never use any company that straight out says we don't believe in a companies right to protect themselves under the EULA or ToS agreement and then points to countries like Korea and say 'See they agree with us'  - To the PA, sorry, but that makes you look bad to say we operate in the US but will use whatever country and law that agrees with our business model. 

 

My opinion on PA bringing in new players?  I really don't see how using PlayerAuctions will bring in any new player base, and if it does, what kind of player will it be? One that just uses Wurm as a cash cow for personal gain or one that actually plays and not load up 10 alts to make bricks.