Feedback wanted from PlayerAuctions

[Audrel 2,223]

For your two questions:

 

1) For now, we're here to support the Wurm Community for those who want that extra layer of security, or want the additional payment options which PA can provide. 

 

2) Great question. I'm here because I am excited about Wurm and what it represents to the gaming industry as a whole. The importance of Wurm is not necessarily financial, but more in the way of being a place where our user base can find a "home" in a game that actually allows real money trading. It wouldn't be difficult to get people excited about Wurm, and to become fully active members in this community. Warm represents an ideal, they have all been waiting for.

How would this benefit the game? More players. If more players are active in Wurm, then Code Club receives more direct sales through the Wurm Store. With more sales through the Wurm Store, Rolf is able to expand the development team. With a larger development team, Code Club is then able to do even COOLER things for developing Wurm. 

 

The community grows. The game grows. 

 

Your showstopper is a couple posts back. You basically said right there in plain sight that Rolf's EULA/TOS is garbage and that the rules stating we have no ownership in the account (which includes the silvers, items, and skills on the account) are complete and utter nonsense and not to abide by them. The Wurm community is indeed better than that.

[Kegan 3,926]

Exactly how did you come to the conclusion that Code Club is receiving a cut? 

I wouldn't recommend making statements based on assumption. The Wurm Community is better than this, yea?

Well if he is not getting a cut then what is the point?

 

Rolf is fighting for a company that most of us do not want or care to use as an "option" and we have not seen any reason why you would add any value to the game other then the guarantee you offer.  A grantee that a member here has said is only a store credit...well at least this is what he got back.

 

We have gotten more players off of Bashur and his YouTube channel than this it just doesn't add up to me but i am done going round in circles with this Rolf has made his mind up it seems so lets just hope he knows what he is doing. 

 

Edit:

Well seems you posted while i was writing this but if you think Wurm is such a great game (and it is) then why do we have to be on board for you to do whatever it is you are trying to do and start the advertising or whatever? Surely the people you will bring will use your service since you brought them here. 

Edited November 22, 2014 by Kegan

[Mahngiel 40]

Your showstopper is a couple posts back. You basically said right there in plain sight that Rolf's EULA/TOS is garbage and that the rules stating we have no ownership in the account (which includes the silvers, items, and skills on the account) are complete and utter nonsense and not to abide by them. The Wurm community is indeed better than that.

Devil's advocate here... Rolf opened the PA Wurm Online Store and advocates game items selling for real world currency.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

 

Regarding Wurm's ToS:

 

If ever we got to the point where working together on an official capacity, PlayerAuctions and Code Club would get into the details of this (obviously), and Rolf would likely make it a condition of officially working together, that we did our due diligence to operate within accordance of his ToS. If that day comes, PA will be a party to a contract. 

Even though we are not obligated, we've already made specific changes to the Wurm Marketplace on PA based on Rolf's feedback.

 

What this suggests to me, is that you are willing to play by Rolf's rules JUST to get an initial foot in the door.

 

If it works out that you get to take over full operations of running the Wurm Shop for Rolf, handling ALL sales, that would be nice (for you).  However if that does not work out, at least you have gotten now the traffic. Once you have Wurm players "comfortable" with the idea of purchasing through your site, you will no longer "need Rolf's permission" (since you have no permission/relationship with any of those other games) and at that stage, you can say "well now that we have the business traffic, we no longer need to feel bound to Rolf's rules. His TOS does not apply to us any longer"

 

This is Stage One only because you know you cannot yet tip your hand to Stage Two and Stage Three. You either get all the official sales, or you get all the unofficial sales. And I would guess if you get official sales, it would not be long till using your site is no longer "optional" because "for players own security" all transactions would need to go through your hands.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors

[PlayerAuctions 14]

What this suggests to me, is that you are willing to play by Rolf's rules JUST to get an initial foot in the door.

 

Once you have Wurm players "comfortable" with the idea of purchasing through your site, you will no longer "need Rolf's permission" (since you have no permission/relationship with any of those other games) and at that stage, you can say "well now that we have the business traffic, we no longer need to feel bound to Rolf's rules. His TOS does not apply to us any longer"

 

For entertainment's sake, we could say yes, that's definitely possible. 

 

But realistically, there is greater benefit to working with Code Club.

 

I may not be clever enough to see it, but having Rolf's blessing seems far better than to ruin a working relationship with Code Club and have them subsequently say "trading on PA is forbidden". Seems like we would lose users that way. 

 

 

Edit:

Well seems you posted while i was writing this but if you think Wurm is such a great game (and it is) then why do we have to be on board for you to do whatever it is you are trying to do and start the advertising or whatever? Surely the people you will bring will use your service since you brought them here. 

 

A reasonable point. It would have been ideal for Wurm users to be excited about the possibilities this could bring by working together. 

 

However, even if this is not the case, Wurm is still a great game and and I'd love to see it grow. 

Goodnight for now

[gnomegates 1,429]

This is something we were planning to address in a streaming conference for users to tune in, and able to ask us questions live. I hope it is understandable, that this hasn't been at the top of our priority lists what with the holiday season coming, year end close outs, and budgeting for next year on the agenda.

 

However, I'll give a very basic position on a very complicated issue.

 

There are two underlying ideologies, neither of which are right/nor wrong in many western jurisdictions:

 

1. All digital items/assets/etc. inside of a game belong to the developer. You merely gain access to this content via a license agreement, but in reality, none of those assets are property which you have a right to own.
2. Items/Currency which you purchase from the game developer can be sold on secondary markets in accordance with the first sale doctrine. Items/currency which are  acquired through time and effort by the gamer are his by labor rights. They can be bought/sold on markets

 

Any contract between gamers and a game developer/publisher which has provisions that says a user can’t buy or sell goods outside of game developer/publisher’s domain is unfair and should be unenforceable as against public policy. This puts us squarely in position number 2. 

 

In general, it is important to remember exactly who enforces a ToS. Do governments enforce ToS? No, on the contrary they do not. Enforcement of Terms of Service comes entirely at the hands of a company (i.e. a game developer banning users). The government will only step in if a contract meets a number of criteria (reasonable notice, assent, fairness, etc. etc.). 

 

Since our position is that of being in favor of a gamer's right to property, many ToS, UA, EULA of games are considered "unfair" or "unconscionable" if you want to use legalese. Our position isn't totally unsupported by international law either (a year or two ago, EU Courts made a ruling, which considered a case involving theft of a digital item, therefore putting dominion and property characteristics onto the digital item, also a few years ago, the Korean Supreme court had ruled that Game Developer's EULA/ToS to be null and void, after game company was sued by players who had their accounts banned when selling in secondary markets). 

 

Therefore, in some major gaming regions, our platform is considered to be "white market". However, gaming regions like the US, have no direct ruling on who actually owns virtual assets (you, or the game developer). PlayerAuctions position is consistent with legally permissible policy at this point, because unlike "Silk Road" we are not a marketplace where cocaine (ILLEGAL) is traded amongst users, we deal in virtual and tangible gaming goods (NOT illegal to buy/sell).

 

TLDR: At the end of the day, the real question is: 

Do gaming companies have sole dominion over all assets produced/made/purchased by gamers? Is it fair for them to? 

 

If we go with public policy, the answer is no. We provide a platform, for users to engage in secondary markets, as is their protected right to do so, and as current legal trends are increasingly pointing towards. 

 

I know this is long overdue, however the reason why we wanted to set up a live stream conference for this topic is because; inevitably there are more questions about finer details, references, etc. etc. all which can be more easily converted via live dialogue. But I wanted to squelch the notion that we were "ignoring" this topic, or that this was something we had never considered. On the contrary, we have very specifically defined positions on all these items (and more), but for now, I leave you guys with this very very basic precís. 

 

Regarding Wurm's ToS:

 

If ever we got to the point where working together on an official capacity, PlayerAuctions and Code Club would get into the details of this (obviously), and Rolf would likely make it a condition of officially working together, that we did our due diligence to operate within accordance of his ToS. If that day comes, PA will be a party to a contract. 

Even though we are not obligated, we've already made specific changes to the Wurm Marketplace on PA based on Rolf's feedback.

The only thing your doing here is making the case for no one following anyone ones ToS. Never did I say anything about whats legal or not, it is indeed up to each game company to have to police its own ToS. One could make the case that people like you and your site actually cause the cost of many online games to increase, because those very games have to now employ more employees to work as GM's and supervisors in order to keep up with those that are breaking the ToS of their games. So you directly are at fault for causing us to have to pay more in monthly fees because we all know that the expense of such things will be passed on to the consumer.

 

This is something that I'm sure your very own site has some people on payroll just to keep up with people that "break the rules" If you had to hire more people cuz there were other sites that were making it easier for people to break your ToS, the cost of those people hired would be passed down. You can try to paint yourself the good guy all you want, you can try to hide behind what you think is "fair" or "unfair" as you say, When I talk about your integrity and trustworthiness I am talking about the fact that YOU agree to the ToS as stated when you play a game but with full intention of breaking those very ToS with no regard to anyone else but to what you think is fair. That sir is called a Lie, you agree to something then go back on it. Thus you are a Liar, and I do not trust liars and try my best to not do business with known liars. A lie is a lie regardless of what courts or people say you can do or who ever says that you do not have to abide by any ToS. When you play that game you agree to those ToS.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Have you and Rolf discussed/exploring having PlayerAuctions handle some or all of official Wurm Shop operations, including credit card/PayPal  purchases and sales of silver coins, Premium Time and sales of player accounts? 

Edited November 22, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors

[Kagrenac 812]

Well if he is not getting a cut then what is the point?

Rolf has always been a supporter of RMT, I don't see why he wouldn't support something that made it more secure for people to do.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Rolf has always been a supporter of RMT, I don't see why he wouldn't support something that made it more secure for people to do.

 

I think Rolf wants to be able to just code the game and not to have to worry about credit card frauds, paypal reversals, and the like. 

 

He also genuinely wants to get his GM staff out of the disputes involved in player to player trades.

 

And he wants player freedom to be able to sell their accounts, items, whatall.

 

I can get on board with all that.

 

I am not sure this is the company however he should be turning all that over to. Their Better Business Bureau rating was a D+ last time I looked, I went back today and it dropped to "F" and no longer accredited. So they apparently feel working with the BBB is really not profitable for them any more. Most of their customers are not following legal agreements anyway. The bottom line is all risk management -- where can they make the best profits and where is it less profitable for them to take chances. 

 

I suspect USA/UK/AUS/CAN players will fare fine, and players from eastern europe, africa, south america will fare .. well, less fine. 

Edited November 22, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors

[Kagrenac 812]

I am not sure this is the company however he should be turning all that over to. Their Better Business Bureau rating was a D+ last time I looked, I went back today and it dropped to "F" and no longer accredited. So they apparently feel working with the BBB is really not profitable for them any more. Most of their customers are not following legal agreements anyway. The bottom line is all risk management -- where can they make the best profits and where is it less profitable for them to take chances.

The BCA gives them an A, obviously they choose working with it over the BBB.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

The BCA gives them an A, obviously they choose working with it over the BBB.

 

Yeah I am still trying to figure this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Business_Bureau#Los_Angeles

 

Los Angeles 

On March 12, 2013, the Council of Better Business Bureaus expelled the Los Angeles-based Better Business Bureau of the Southland, the largest local BBB, claiming that the local group had not met the Council's "standards relating to accreditation, reporting on businesses, and handling complaints." The Los Angeles group changed its name to the Business Consumer Alliance and said that it had followed all the Council's policies  The Council of Better Business Bureaus launched a new local BBB for the Los Angeles area.

 

Does that mean the Better Business Bureau kicked out the LA Better Business Bureau so the expelled  LA BBB is now the BCA? Very confusing I guess. 

 

edit: According to the LA Times article linked below, BCA was kicked out of the offical BBB family because as long as you paid their fee, you automatically got an A grade. They even gave a fake business named after a terrorist group an A rating because it had paid its membership fee:

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/12/business/la-fi-0313-bbb-expelled-20130313

 

Anyway, it is too confusing to me. I can understand Rolf not wanting to be in the business of "secure internet sales". If I was a game developer, I would not want to deal with credit card fraud either.  I am not very happy about this PlayerAuctions stuff starting as "optional" while they explore a "deeper business relationship" that becomes non-optional for us.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors

[bwg 537]

Have you and Rolf discussed/exploring having PlayerAuctions handle some or all of official Wurm Shop operations, including credit card/PayPal  purchases and sales of silver coins, Premium Time and sales of player accounts? 

 

I hope not, since PA are charging a 53c fee for Paypal payments on the $6 gnome!!

[Radni 1,089]

Exactly what security is provided when the only insurance is player auctions website only credit?

[Kagrenac 812]

Exactly what security is provided when the only insurance is player auctions website only credit?

Except it isn't?

They only give credit if something occurs due to the previous buyer after the sale, ie they got the account banned/take it back, etc.

 

If the item is not delivered, you can get a refund.

[PlayerAuctions 14]

I hope not, since PA are charging a 53c fee for Paypal payments on the $6 gnome!!

 

This is the payment handling fee which is enacted from payment processors. On the payment page, there should be different fees depending on the payment processors. If I recall correctly, this is about 4% + $0.20 for PayPal. Which is fairly good, compared to the 15% PayPal was charging for Diablo 3 users (in addition to the 15% Blizzard charged its gamers). 

 

It insures that PA is 100% guaranteed to get and keep their cut of the booty. :-)

 

For the sake of transparency, yes that is correct. From here, there are two perspectives:

 

1) They are pirates, and just want to keep their commission fee!

2) This is a fairly standard business practice, not unlike if you return something to Circuit City or Best Buy and receive a "store credit" for a returned item. 

 

While in practice, there are times when we do issue refunds instead of Market Credit. However the norm is the latter. When PA states that it protects buyer and seller for 100% of the order, that means if payment fraud occurs on a $100 order, we would have to transact another $1,000 to break even. Market Credit helps to reduce that gap by 10%, which... still means we incur a huge loss. 

 

Therefore, instead of looking at it from the position that we "take the money and run", see it more of a system which helps make our guarantees to users, just a little more viable, while keeping in line with standard business practice. 

 

It is actually very expensive for us to provide such guarantees, but we do anyway to help alleviate concerns people may have when it comes to digital asset exchange.

 

Hope this sheds some light on the rational.

edit: According to the LA Times article linked below, BCA was kicked out of the offical BBB family because as long as you paid their fee, you automatically got an A grade. They even gave a fake business named after a terrorist group an A rating because it had paid its membership fee:

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/12/business/la-fi-0313-bbb-expelled-20130313

 

 

The truth actually is vice versa. We had been an accredited business with the BBB since 2010, however problems started to arise over time and we began to notice that each year when it came time to renew our accreditation, the cost would increase. Needless to say, we managed to reach an "A" rating with the BBB... that is, until the split.

 

When the split happened between the BBB and BCA, we began experiencing huge problem with the BBB. Namely that, for nearly all of 2012, we, as well as numerous other businesses within the BBB of Southern California, lost our ratings and accreditation due to the split. So, after having paid our dues, we like so many other businesses in So Cal had a rating of "NR" (not rated). They also began force tactics which we felt negatively impacted a user's experience.

 

We had tried for a very long time to re-establish our accreditation, but the BBB proved to be "anti-business" and a general mess of disorganization. In the end, we decided to sever ties with the BBB entirely. And the accusation, that the BBB is a system designed to extort businesses has proven to be true. They have our most recent business history/transaction number amounts, and from having gone to being a business with an "A" rating, to a business with an "F" rating based on 7 unanswered complaints goes to show that their system only works if you pay them. You can see the BCA's response here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/12/idUSnMKW95886a+1c0+MKW20130312 

 

The BCA on the other hand, is far more trustworthy of an institution, and base their ratings on business volume VS the size of the company VS the number of complaints. 

 

Consider this; for a business which handles hundreds of thousands of orders in a year, we have an "A" rating on BCA based on 40 odd complaints (which we address in good faith), compared to an "F" rating on the BBB based on 7 complaints (where both the BBB and BCA have our volume and business metrics). 

 

In the end, the BBB is bogus, and we don't condone their practices at all. If a users has a valid complaint, they can post on the BCA, and management will address that issue in good faith. A complaint posted on the BBB however will not receive a response from us, because in principle, we do not condone the practices of the BBB, nor do we believe it to be an entity of genuine objectivity between merchant & consumer. (google BBB scams, and you'll see a ton of businesses who all say the same thing about the BBB). 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2014 by PlayerAuctions

[PlayerAuctions 14]

Except it isn't?

They only give credit if something occurs due to the previous buyer after the sale, ie they got the account banned/take it back, etc.

 

If the item is not delivered, you can get a refund.

 

That's correct. If the item/gold/account/etc is not delivered, the buyer will receive a refund in all cases. If the item/gold/account is delivered, but does not match the item description, then a refund is also made (provided the buyer returns said item to seller). 

 

If an order fails due in any part because of PlayerAuctions ( a technical glitch, our human error, customer support miscommunication, etc), then the buyer is issued a full refund.

 

The only time "Market Credit" comes into play is for after sale support, when a buyer has claimed full, and complete delivery of the item purchased and we have disbursed payment to the seller. And as mentioned before, in some circumstances, buyers can still get a refund.

 

Some members even request Market credit instead of refunds, since a Market credit code allows a user to make an immediate purchase (no manual reviews, no payment verification, and no waiting for a refund to be processed). 

[Audrel 2,223]

 

In the end, the BBB is bogus, and we don't condone their practices at all. If a users has a valid complaint, they can post on the BCA, and management will address that issue in good faith. A complaint posted on the BBB however will not receive a response from us, because in principle, we do not condone the practices of the BBB, nor do we believe it to be an entity of genuine objectivity between merchant & consumer. (google BBB scams, and you'll see a ton of businesses who all say the same thing about the BBB). 

 

 

 

100% exactly how I feel about your business. Yet your complaint is valid and mine is not. I don't condone the practices of sites that promote TOS violations nor do I believe they are entities of genuine objectivity between players and developers. Google your type of site and scams and you will see just as much.

[Kadore 926]

Over the years we've had this ... http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/30858-october-raffle-win-a-new-ipod-nano/

 

and this ... http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/61424-bitcoin-mining-for-silvers/

 

And those were lets spam your email, voicemail, and load up your computer with viruses, spyware etc ... or run up your power bill and make your pc sound like a 747 taking off.

 

Let's be honest, to date Rolf has had bad luck with the people and sites he wants us to embrace, might do a little research before you boggle about how some take your offer Playerauctions.

[Ikeprof 182]

LOL in the end this is all so irrelevant.

 

People will vote with their wallets.  The only downside of that is that once a player has left, deeds, decayed, ships/buildings rotted and long gone etc, it's harder to resume Wurm Online than it is most traditional MMO's

 

Once you invest months surface mining the terrain to match your vision, digging 1000's of dirt to suit your needs, grinding skills to create what you want, it scares the living heck out of a player to read things like this and wonder what the underlying motivations are and what the future holds for the investment of not the dollars, but the sheer almost embarrassing amount of hours that they have invested.

 

My current monthly outgoing supports 5 active accounts and a 141 x 56 deed.  The average player here does not seem to be stupid.  They read into every little nuanced decision (which from a game design/focus/polish perspective itself is somewhat disconcerting), analyze every word choice in the weekly wurm update, attempt to decipher where the game will be in the future and how it will impact them and their playstyle

 

Promotions like this and the raw insistence behind its acceptance is unnerving.

[Syls 11]

Alright, so I went ahead and purchased 1 "silver deal" from the player auctions website to see how it worked. My method of payment was through a visa card which had an extra $5 fee with it as a service charge or something, not a huge deal. I did have to type in my personal info a few times throughout the process, once to verify the payment source, and once to actually make the payment, but its not more information than amazon asks for so okay. The part that was a bit odd was that I received an email from them saying they had to call me and confirm the order details to verify the payment. The first time they called me I had gone to bed, so earlier I sent them an email back saying I was at home and they called within minutes of me sending it. I asked if that was something they did every time and was told no just for that purchase. Not sure why, perhaps because the purchase exceeded a certain amount or perhaps because it was my first purchase with that payment method through them. All in all the site is a bit clunky, but it works. I get that most of it is for protecting peoples accounts, but paypal is much faster and more user friendly. I was planning on buying a gold from the shop after I got my winter bonus anyway so I figured I'd give it a shot. Seems that the gold was deposited into my bank instantly after I got the payment verified but thats seller end, so good work there . In my opinion unless you don't trust the person you are buying from its significantly faster to use paypal or just trade silvers in game if purchasing an item. I don't think its a bad thing to have as an option, you have three options now; paypal, silvers in game or player auctions. the bad part is people seem to act like Rolf is trying to make it their only option when its simply an additional one.

[Lithien 268]

This is something we were planning to address in a streaming conference for users to tune in, and able to ask us questions live. I hope it is understandable, that this hasn't been at the top of our priority lists what with the holiday season coming, year end close outs, and budgeting for next year on the agenda.

 

However, I'll give a very basic position on a very complicated issue.

 

There are two underlying ideologies, neither of which are right/nor wrong in many western jurisdictions:

 

1. All digital items/assets/etc. inside of a game belong to the developer. You merely gain access to this content via a license agreement, but in reality, none of those assets are property which you have a right to own.
2. Items/Currency which you purchase from the game developer can be sold on secondary markets in accordance with the first sale doctrine. Items/currency which are  acquired through time and effort by the gamer are his by labor rights. They can be bought/sold on markets

 

Any contract between gamers and a game developer/publisher which has provisions that says a user can’t buy or sell goods outside of game developer/publisher’s domain is unfair and should be unenforceable as against public policy. This puts us squarely in position number 2. 

 

In general, it is important to remember exactly who enforces a ToS. Do governments enforce ToS? No, on the contrary they do not. Enforcement of Terms of Service comes entirely at the hands of a company (i.e. a game developer banning users). The government will only step in if a contract meets a number of criteria (reasonable notice, assent, fairness, etc. etc.). 

 

Since our position is that of being in favor of a gamer's right to property, many ToS, UA, EULA of games are considered "unfair" or "unconscionable" if you want to use legalese. Our position isn't totally unsupported by international law either (a year or two ago, EU Courts made a ruling, which considered a case involving theft of a digital item, therefore putting dominion and property characteristics onto the digital item, also a few years ago, the Korean Supreme court had ruled that Game Developer's EULA/ToS to be null and void, after game company was sued by players who had their accounts banned when selling in secondary markets). 

 

Therefore, in some major gaming regions, our platform is considered to be "white market". However, gaming regions like the US, have no direct ruling on who actually owns virtual assets (you, or the game developer). PlayerAuctions position is consistent with legally permissible policy at this point, because unlike "Silk Road" we are not a marketplace where cocaine (ILLEGAL) is traded amongst users, we deal in virtual and tangible gaming goods (NOT illegal to buy/sell).

 

TLDR: At the end of the day, the real question is: 

Do gaming companies have sole dominion over all assets produced/made/purchased by gamers? Is it fair for them to? 

 

If we go with public policy, the answer is no. We provide a platform, for users to engage in secondary markets, as is their protected right to do so, and as current legal trends are increasingly pointing towards. 

 

I know this is long overdue, however the reason why we wanted to set up a live stream conference for this topic is because; inevitably there are more questions about finer details, references, etc. etc. all which can be more easily converted via live dialogue. But I wanted to squelch the notion that we were "ignoring" this topic, or that this was something we had never considered. On the contrary, we have very specifically defined positions on all these items (and more), but for now, I leave you guys with this very very basic precís. 

 

Regarding Wurm's ToS:

 

If ever we got to the point where working together on an official capacity, PlayerAuctions and Code Club would get into the details of this (obviously), and Rolf would likely make it a condition of officially working together, that we did our due diligence to operate within accordance of his ToS. If that day comes, PA will be a party to a contract. 

Even though we are not obligated, we've already made specific changes to the Wurm Marketplace on PA based on Rolf's feedback.

 

I am not going to say anything, but let your double standards speak for itself.

 

The following quotes are from your User Agreement (the last one gets an a instead of an i in front when copy/pasting. And the a I see when editing this, shows as a 1 when posting. That is not an edit by me. In case there are other weird inconsistencies, I recommend people actually read PAs user agreement themselves):

 

4.4 Prohibition on transferability of Account, User Name, and Password. A Registered User may not sell, attempt to sell, offer to sell, give, assign or otherwise transfer an Account, User Name or Password to a third party without the prior written consent of PlayerAuctions. PlayerAuctions may suspend or terminate the Account of a Registered User or the transferee of a Registered User in the event of a sale, offer to sell, gift, assignment or transfer in violation of this Section.

 

Prohibited behavior. Each User hereby represents, warrants and agrees that information submitted to PlayerAuctions for display on the Site shall not:

 

1. Solicit business from any Users in connection with a commercial activity that competes with PlayerAuctions. Furthermore, in the event that PlayerAuctions determines that User has violated this Section 5.4(i), User authorizes PlayerAuctions to levy afine of up to $150.00 against the User’s registered payment method on file with PlayerAuctions, and/or require a deposit of up to $300.00 to reactive the User’s Account;

Edited November 23, 2014 by Lithien

[Farmerbob 369]

People are bringing up old arguments. I have considered the things you say and it's the same as the previous thread. FUD and illogical arguments about how other MMO games should affect our business model because of their restrictive Terms of Service. Extend that logic and we should avoid PayPal and Visa as well.

 

I've hidden those posts. Take it somewhere else than this thread.

 

This thread is for feedback from people actually trying the service.

Rolf,

 

I will never use any website specifically designed for the illicit traffic of goods.

 

That's what Playerauctions is, a website specifically designed for disallowed trading outside of the control of other game owners.

 

By encouraging your player base to use a site like this, you weaken the intellectual property rights of all game owners.

 

If I know a guy sitting at the corner in a van is selling stolen DVD players, I'm not going to go up to them and buy a used cellphone.

 

Think it through.  It's harmful to the entire MMO industry if you help legitimize scumbags like this.  It's bigger than just buying characters or currency.

[Audrel 2,223]

 

I am not going to say anything, but let your double standards speak for itself.

 

The following quotes are from your User Agreement (the last one gets an a instead of an i in front when copy/pasting. And the a I see when editing this, shows as a 1 when posting. That is not an edit by me. In case there are other weird inconsistencies, I recommend people actually read PAs user agreement themselves):

 

4.4 Prohibition on transferability of Account, User Name, and Password. A Registered User may not sell, attempt to sell, offer to sell, give, assign or otherwise transfer an Account, User Name or Password to a third party without the prior written consent of PlayerAuctions. PlayerAuctions may suspend or terminate the Account of a Registered User or the transferee of a Registered User in the event of a sale, offer to sell, gift, assignment or transfer in violation of this Section.

 

Prohibited behavior. Each User hereby represents, warrants and agrees that information submitted to PlayerAuctions for display on the Site shall not:

 

1. Solicit business from any Users in connection with a commercial activity that competes with PlayerAuctions. Furthermore, in the event that PlayerAuctions determines that User has violated this Section 5.4(i), User authorizes PlayerAuctions to levy afine of up to $150.00 against the User’s registered payment method on file with PlayerAuctions, and/or require a deposit of up to $300.00 to reactive the User’s Account;

 

 

Let me reword it... you may violate any TOS/EULA you wish except ours.

[Farmerbob 369]

Now that I've poked you with a stick, Rolf, I'll turn right around and offer a solution.

 

As the owner of a company that operates an open-trade game, if YOU, and perhaps other game owners with similar policies, were to create a new website, completely unrelated to historicly illicit sites, where players could safely trade currency and goods ONLY for games without restrictions, I would strongly consider using the site.

 

Find a couple other games with policies like yours and put together an auction/sale website.  Require that the developers of the games clearly indicate that use of the site is acceptable before anything from those games can be sold on the site.  Show the world how you think it should be done, without kicking the rest of the MMO industry in the face.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Farmerbob

[bwg 537]

This is the payment handling fee which is enacted from payment processors. On the payment page, there should be different fees depending on the payment processors. If I recall correctly, this is about 4% + $0.20 for PayPal. Which is fairly good, compared to the 15% PayPal was charging for Diablo 3 users (in addition to the 15% Blizzard charged its gamers). 

My point was that CC doesn't charge us for PayPal transactions so I hoped that Rolf didn't move payment for premium and silver to your company for processing otherwise we would be paying more if you passed the charge on to the customer.

You know what, I don't remember paying a fee for using PayPal anytime recently and I use PayPal almost daily.