Feedback wanted from PlayerAuctions

[PlayerAuctions 14]

Exactly... I used paypal and the PA site never once asked for half that crap others have mentioned. I even tinkered around and had myself further setup as a seller.

 

Only things that needed to be verified were an email and a phone number, which was done in a minute.

 

Still its not like we HAVE to use PA, even if you dont want one of those... shiny new green gnomes... so green and shiny...

 

I suppose it would be helpful to comment for everyone's understanding why some have needed extra verification, while others have not.

The TLDR version: Our risk management system is very sophisticated and treats each individual buyer/seller differently depending on a huge number of factors.

 

For those of you interested in risk management here are some of the things our system checks person to person including but not limited to:

 

1.  Is the payment method you are using verified/secure? (Credit Cards - 3D enabled [yes/no], PayPal - Verified [yes/no], Credit Cards Vetted [yes/no], etc.
2.  What is the age of the payment method you want to use? (Was your PayPal created yesterday, or 10 years old with a large payment history)
3.  The Fraud profile of your country (New Zealand has far lower rates of payment fraud, whereas Brazil suffers from cyber crime)
4.  What is the user's global reputation score? (email reputation, phone reputation, address reputation, payment reputation, device ID reputation, etc.) 
5.  Is the user on any global or internal negative, warm, or black lists?
6.  Does the order match a user's typical online purchase behavior (for example, if you are a user that normally only spends $50 on online shopping, but you suddenly make an order for a $750 order, it will likely get flagged for manual verification)
7.  Is the user's e-Commerce profile established? (People who regularly purchase online will generally have greater ease, whereas an 18 year old with a brand new student American Express card, will likely need to submit verification materials). 
8. - Does your own Payment processor trust you as an online shopper [yes/no/suspicious]

 

To be honest, I would have suspected a lot more complaints about our site asking for "too much info", or being "too strict", since Wurm is a new market, our platform essentially is building it's own custom "Wurm Online" profile. Surprisingly however, most orders which have been placed so far have gone through with no issue. 

 

Out of the 40 orders we have processed since Friday, 3 were cancelled early by buyers (with one re-ordering with success), and only 1 order has gone through a Manual Review. It is a pretty solid start so far. 

Edited November 22, 2014 by PlayerAuctions

[PlayerAuctions 14]

If you are answering questions then can you tell us why this is all needed? 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/114214-feedback-wanted-from-playerauctions/page-4#entry1166557

 

Sure Kegan. I actually responded to Sometouw it here:  feedback-wanted-from-playerauctions/#entry1166817

 

But I'll post some quick feedback here:

 

Disposable cards (Visa, MasterCard, Amex Gift Cards) are riskier to process than traditional Debit ATM or Credit Card because they are completely anonymous. They also require the extra hassle which Sometouw went through because they do not support ease of use features like online banking.

 

Regardless however, if you pay directly with a credit card, we perform a "vetting" for all Credit Cards to ensure that the person using the card has actual control/access to the account (to prevent stolen credit cards from being used to make payments on PA). 

 

The vetting process is a one time occurrence, so once you have successfully completed Card Vetting for one card, you will not have to do it again (unless you use a different card in the future, in which case that one will need to be vetted also). 

Hope that helps... though... I will be going to sleep pretty soon

[JudusX 199]

thanks for the responses. I hope it clears up some peoples skepticism.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

for example, if you are a user that normally only spends $50 on online shopping, but you suddenly make an order for a $750 order, it will likely get flagged for manual verification

 

How do you know how much I normally spend on online shopping? 

[KryoKitten 71]

While the discount on gold is tempting, it's not tempting enough to sway me into buying from a shady site.  You should offer offer gold sales every few months and specialty items like gnomes as a limited time thing on the trusted Wurm Sales page. There is no need to use sub par places like PlayerAuctions. 
 

Edited November 22, 2014 by KryoKitten

[Klaa 4,872]

How do you know how much I normally spend on online shopping? 

 

Purchase history of the account.

 

All credit card companies and many grocery and retail stores do the same. The former do it anyways; though, they advertise it for fraud prevention. The later are a little more honest, using it to track trends in what their customers are buying. See what they should stock more of, better placement, etc

[Mahngiel 40]

Well there are players spending on this site now so where is the massive player base they have to bring to the game..when do they show up?  

They'll "show up" when they "realize" it's "lucrative" to pay for premium time, farm skills and sell their grinds to normal players... in theory, anyway.

[thorgot 465]

Got my two gnomes today, no hassle, paid with PayPal. That said, I probably wouldn't use the site for items offered by players instead of Rolf.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Purchase history of the account.

 

All credit card companies and many grocery and retail stores do the same. The former do it anyways; though, they advertise it for fraud prevention. The later are a little more honest, using it to track trends in what their customers are buying. See what they should stock more of, better placement, etc

 

So are you saying my credit card company tells playerauctions.com how much I normally spend on online shopping, as well as what types of items I usually buy, thus what types of items they should be trying to sell to me?  If my bank uses Mastercard as their official card, does that mean it is my bank sharing this information or Mastercard sharing it? I mean I knew they "shared" information about me, just didn't realize they were sharing it with shady business as well.

 

Or are you saying playerauctions keeps their own tally of what I normally purchase FROM THEM, so that if I normally buy $50 a month from them and suddenly buy $750 from them, I get flagged?

Edited November 22, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors

[Tuanta 484]

Got my two gnomes today, no hassle, paid with PayPal. That said, I probably wouldn't use the site for items offered by players instead of Rolf.

Same for me...

And with that said, Rolf could just make those items available on his site through PayPal or Xsolla.

[PlayerAuctions 14]

Well there are players spending on this site now so where is the massive player base they have to bring to the game..when do they show up?  

 

True about sales on the site. It appears that more than half of the Green Gnomes have been purchased already, so it looks like this rare item won't be available for much longer.

 

When we first approached Code Club AB, we were both very excited about working together, but both parties agreed it would be best to take things slowly. This is why PlayerAuctions is not required for trading, it is only an option.

 

When this was first announced, the feedback was very negative. What was most unfortunate however, was that nearly none of the feedback was based on people actually trying the site. No one was saying "I tried the site, this is how it worked. I liked this. I didn't like that. Etc. etc", instead a lot of the conversation began to veer towards flaming, and what I began seeing was a growing trend of people saying things like "PlayerAuctions is full of botters, macro-users, farmers, etc. etc". This in essence, is speaking negatively against our users. 

 

We didn't anticipate much success (for PA or Code Club AB), if we funneled our users/did Marketing for Wurm, if in the end, the people we brought would ultimately not be welcomed by the Wurm community.  The reality is that many of our gaming markets are truly "gamer to gamer" which you could see here:

 

 

Our community is just as prideful as any gaming community, except that these are users who believe in gaming secondary markets, and wouldn't take too kindly to prejudice that all "PA users are hackers and farmers" (especially when it is just not true). 

 

We came up with the idea, that to properly evaluate this opportunity, we should do a "proof of concept" test and get feedback from users who actually used the platform. 

 

Once people actually bought and used the platform, and were able to adequately speak from experience that PlayerAuctions does not steal people's identity, does not take people's money and run, and does not sell personally information, or send out tons of spam... that people would begin to change their mindset and would actually entertain the idea that welcoming PA and our community might actually improve things in Wurm far more than provide detriment. 

 

Right now, we're seeing how this is going

[gnomegates 1,429]

True about sales on the site. It appears that more than half of the Green Gnomes have been purchased already, so it looks like this rare item won't be available for much longer.

 

When we first approached Code Club AB, we were both very excited about working together, but both parties agreed it would be best to take things slowly. This is why PlayerAuctions is not required for trading, it is only an option.

 

When this was first announced, the feedback was very negative. What was most unfortunate however, was that nearly none of the feedback was based on people actually trying the site. No one was saying "I tried the site, this is how it worked. I liked this. I didn't like that. Etc. etc", instead a lot of the conversation began to veer towards flaming, and what I began seeing was a growing trend of people saying things like "PlayerAuctions is full of botters, macro-users, farmers, etc. etc". This in essence, is speaking negatively against our users. 

 

We didn't anticipate much success (for PA or Code Club AB), if we funneled our users/did Marketing for Wurm, if in the end, the people we brought would ultimately not be welcomed by the Wurm community.  The reality is that many of our gaming markets are truly "gamer to gamer" which you could see here:

 

 

Our community is just as prideful as any gaming community, except that these are users who believe in gaming secondary markets, and wouldn't take too kindly to prejudice that all "PA users are hackers and farmers" (especially when it is just not true). 

 

We came up with the idea, that to properly evaluate this opportunity, we should do a "proof of concept" test and get feedback from users who actually used the platform. 

 

Once people actually bought and used the platform, and were able to adequately speak from experience that PlayerAuctions does not steal people's identity, does not take people's money and run, and does not sell personally information, or send out tons of spam... that people would begin to change their mindset and would actually entertain the idea that welcoming PA and our community might actually improve things in Wurm far more than provide detriment. 

 

Right now, we're seeing how this is going

Majority of the concerns that people have had in the past with your site, and that many of us still have, is the fact that you facilitate the breaking of other games ToS for the sake of the almighty dollar, what makes us think you will do the same with Wurm Online. You promised to address this issue, instead you continue to ignore this concern. Everyone knows that for the majority of your transactions that they will go smooth, your a business, its in your best interest for that to happen. However that was never the major concern many of us have had with your site. Regardless of how safe or how much security your site can provide, you facilitate the breaking of other games ToS, and that speaks volumes to me about your integrity and ability to be trusted. These are my thoughts, I don't need to try out any site to know that I don't want to be associated with them if I do not agree with the very basics of their business. GL to you

Edited November 22, 2014 by gnomegates

[PlayerAuctions 14]

So are you saying my credit card company tells playerauctions.com how much I normally spend on online shopping, as well as what types of items I usually buy, thus what types of items they should be trying to sell to me?  If my bank uses Mastercard as their official card, does that mean it is my bank sharing this information or Mastercard sharing it? I mean I knew they "shared" information about me, just didn't realize they were sharing it with shady business as well.

 

Or are you saying playerauctions keeps their own tally of what I normally purchase FROM THEM, so that if I normally buy $50 a month from them and suddenly buy $750 from them, I get flagged?

 

The latter is true.

 

While your credit card company does maintain purchase behavior for their customers, they do not share it with merchants. 

 

After your purchase goes through our initial risk management filters, your payment will then get filtered through your own bank's/credit card company's risk management system, in which it is either passed, failed, or passed with caution (in which case, the order would end up going through a manual review on either their side, or our side depending on the rules triggered). 

Does that help?

[Audrel 2,223]

Ehm,

 

that was a scam intented to harm Wurm and you fell for it man. GJ bringing that up here

 

 

We can sell gnomes ingame sure. But I want some of you to try this out and see how it is for yourself instead of spreading rumours. If you're sceptical you're free to refrain from trying.

 

I want sincere feedback in this thread, not FUD which will yield warnings.

 

That site is full of scams and scammers, Rolf. My God, man. They encourage the breaking of TOS agreements with the players of those games listed there. I am not so sure about you but me, personally, I do not want to see gold sellers in chat or in the forums and I don't want to see resource devouring bots all over our servers churning out bulk sales lower than any player will want to match to get our silvers to sell back to us so they can get them again.

 

This feedback is as sincere as it can get. Since it is you who is handing out the FUD, so I guess I will just take my warning. Can I have a gnome with that?

[Alec 728]

True about sales on the site. It appears that more than half of the Green Gnomes have been purchased already, so it looks like this rare item won't be available for much longer.

 

When we first approached Code Club AB, we were both very excited about working together, but both parties agreed it would be best to take things slowly. This is why PlayerAuctions is not required for trading, it is only an option.

 

When this was first announced, the feedback was very negative. What was most unfortunate however, was that nearly none of the feedback was based on people actually trying the site. No one was saying "I tried the site, this is how it worked. I liked this. I didn't like that. Etc. etc", instead a lot of the conversation began to veer towards flaming, and what I began seeing was a growing trend of people saying things like "PlayerAuctions is full of botters, macro-users, farmers, etc. etc". This in essence, is speaking negatively against our users. 

 

We didn't anticipate much success (for PA or Code Club AB), if we funneled our users/did Marketing for Wurm, if in the end, the people we brought would ultimately not be welcomed by the Wurm community.  The reality is that many of our gaming markets are truly "gamer to gamer" which you could see here:

 

 

Our community is just as prideful as any gaming community, except that these are users who believe in gaming secondary markets, and wouldn't take too kindly to prejudice that all "PA users are hackers and farmers" (especially when it is just not true). 

 

We came up with the idea, that to properly evaluate this opportunity, we should do a "proof of concept" test and get feedback from users who actually used the platform. 

 

Once people actually bought and used the platform, and were able to adequately speak from experience that PlayerAuctions does not steal people's identity, does not take people's money and run, and does not sell personally information, or send out tons of spam... that people would begin to change their mindset and would actually entertain the idea that welcoming PA and our community might actually improve things in Wurm far more than provide detriment. 

 

Right now, we're seeing how this is going

 

 

So Rolf gets a cut of whatever Wurm transaction happens over there(including the transaction between players that right now Rolf can't get a profit from), and he forcefeed or "encourages" the Wurm community with PA?

Edited November 22, 2014 by Alec

[Kegan 3,926]

When we first approached Code Club AB, we were both very excited about working together, but both parties agreed it would be best to take things slowly. This is why PlayerAuctions is not required for trading, it is only an option.

So are you saying that you are working to make your company the only place to get game coins and items and Code Club AB will not handle this anymore?  Maybe i am reading more into the above "both parties agreed it would be best to take things slowly" but it seems like to me you are trying to take over the micropayments for them.

 

Also you talk about advertising/funneling your users what kind of advertising are you talking about and how is that going to help the game? 

Edited November 22, 2014 by Kegan

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

 both parties agreed it would be best to take things slowly. This is why PlayerAuctions is not required for trading, it is only an option.

 

This was exactly what I was going to ask. Start slow and make it only an "option" at first?

[Sanrina 29]

Just an update I did get my two gnomes from rolf today everything went through fine.  I went back to order 2 more gnomes today.  Im sorry that other people are having a difficult time on the auction site.  I did not have to give anything but my email and phone for verification.  

[Audrel 2,223]

We didn't anticipate much success (for PA or Code Club AB), if we funneled our users/did Marketing for Wurm, if in the end, the people we brought would ultimately not be welcomed by the Wurm community.  The reality is that many of our gaming markets are truly "gamer to gamer" which you could see here:

 

It's not those in RED I am concerned about. It's the botters and macrodogs that always run rampant on those sites. The gamers are more than welcome here by me and I am sure everyone else though I can't speak for them. But the rest are not. You (indirectly) endorse breaking of TOS agreements. Nothing you say here will make me believe you will enforce the integrity of Wurm Online's TOS agreements any more than you do all those others. What would you really care if botters descended upon Wurm with their macros and (too strong of a word here???) (the other word that goes with pillage) our markets? You wouldn't. You will get your cut of the plunder.

 

ADDITION: It's nice to see he comes flying back with a grinny smile the second a new deal is arranged with him so he can evade questions he doesn't like while handing out sugarcoated turds to those he can get by answering.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Audrel

[Alec 728]

It's not those in RED I am concerned about. It's the botters and macrodogs that always run rampant on those sites. The gamers are more than welcome here by me and I am sure everyone else though I can't speak for them. But the rest are not. You (indirectly) endorse breaking of TOS agreements. Nothing you say here will make me believe you will enforce the integrity of Wurm Online's TOS agreements any more than you do all those others. What would you really care if botters descended upon Wurm with their macros and (too strong of a word here???) (the other word that goes with pillage) our markets? You wouldn't. You will get your cut of the plunder.

 

ADDITION: It's nice to see he comes flying back with a grinny smile the second a new deal is arranged with him so he can evade questions he doesn't like while handing out sugarcoated turds to those he can get by answering.

 

 

 

PlayerAuctions, on 22 Nov 2014 - 9:24 PM, said:

We didn't anticipate much success (for PA or Code Club AB), if we funneled our users/did Marketing for Wurm, if in the end, the people we brought would ultimately not be welcomed by the Wurm community.  The reality is that many of our gaming markets are truly "gamer to gamer" which you could see here:

 

 

"Gamer to gamer" ie:

 

Gamer (→ PA gets its % of the transaction → PA gives Rolf his cut →) to gamer.

 

 

Seriously Rolf, there are other ways of getting more revenue than this one.

[PlayerAuctions 14]

Regarding Wurm's ToS:

 

If ever we got to the point where working together on an official capacity, PlayerAuctions and Code Club would get into the details of this (obviously), and Rolf would likely make it a condition of officially working together, that we did our due diligence to operate within accordance of his ToS. If that day comes, PA will be a party to a contract. 

Even though we are not obligated, we've already made specific changes to the Wurm Marketplace on PA based on Rolf's feedback.

Edited November 27, 2014 by PlayerAuctions

[Audrel 2,223]

However, I'll give a very basic position on a very complicated issue.

 

There are two underlying ideologies, neither of which are right/nor wrong in many western jurisdictions:

 

1. All digital items/assets/etc. inside of a game belong to the developer. You merely gain access to this content via a license agreement, but in reality, none of those assets are property which you have a right to own.

Items/Currency which you purchase from the game developer can be sold on secondary markets in accordance with the first sale doctrine. Items/currency which are  acquired through time and effort by the gamer are his by labor rights. They can be bought/sold on markets

 

Any contract between gamers and a game developer/publisher which has provisions that says a user can’t buy or sell goods outside of game developer/publisher’s domain is unfair and should be unenforceable as against public policy. This puts us squarely in position number 2. 

 

 

Read it here: http://www.wurmonline.com/wurm-online-game-agreement/

 

Here is a brief non exhaustive summary to help you. However, please ensure you read the full terms and conditions contained in the rest of this agreement as it is those that you are agreeing to.

• Wurm Online is Copyright Code Club AB

You agree to pay any charges associated with a premium account

You are solely responsible for the security of your password

You have no ownership in the account; this is a service provided by Code Club AB.

Purchase of silver coins is payment for a service provided by Code Club AB. Silver coins have no real world value.

You must abide by the Wurm Online game rules, forum and chat rules as published by Code Club now or in the future

You must follow the rules for choosing a player name

The Java Client is supplied as is and Code Club AB accepts no responsibility for any damage to your system

You may not use any third party software that adds functionality or mines data from the servers or client.

You must agree to all the terms stated below. These terms may be revised from time to time and applied retrospectively to all accounts.

 

Creation of this account allows you the exclusive use of this account for playing the Wurm Online game by accessing the service provided by Code Club AB pursuant to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in the Account and that the account is under the sole ownership of Code Club AB.

 

What you just said violates the terms we all agree to when we hit play.

 

EDIT: So tell me, is this account now my property and protected under my rights of ownership because of time invested or does Code Club AB own my invested time?

Edited November 22, 2014 by Audrel

[PlayerAuctions 14]

 

PlayerAuctions, on 22 Nov 2014 - 9:24 PM, said:

 

 

"Gamer to gamer" ie:

 

Gamer (→ PA gets its % of the transaction → PA gives Rolf his cut →) to gamer.

 

 

Seriously Rolf, there are other ways of getting more revenue than this one.

 

 

Exactly how did you come to the conclusion that Code Club is receiving a cut? 

I wouldn't recommend making statements based on assumption. The Wurm Community is better than this, yea?

[Alec 728]

Exactly how did you come to the conclusion that Code Club is receiving a cut?

 

 

When we first approached Code Club AB, we were both very excited about working together, but both parties agreed it would be best to take things slowly. This is why PlayerAuctions is not required for trading, it is only an option.

 

And the fact that Rolf himself send me an e-mail telling me how good PA is(with his sign as CEO of Code Club AB on the end of it), and all the threads and the incentives he is making to encourage using PA for Wurm transaction instead of doing it privately(in a way that no one but the two interested players gets money/coins/goods/services).

 

I still don't see a confirmation or denial of Rolf getting a cut out of PA deals.

 

 

I wouldn't recommend making statements based on assumption. The Wurm Community is better than this, yea?

I'm not the representative of all the Wurm Comunity, right? Just a paying customer that makes up statements based on what he sees, reads and hears.

 

But after reading those response, all of them ending with "?", I have some thoughts I have about PA confirmed.

 

 

 

 

 

Also I have to say that Audrel has brought up some very interesting topics.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Alec

[PlayerAuctions 14]

So are you saying that you are working to make your company the only place to get game coins and items and Code Club AB will not handle this anymore?  Maybe i am reading more into the above "both parties agreed it would be best to take things slowly" but it seems like to me you are trying to take over the micropayments for them.

 

Also you talk about advertising/funneling your users what kind of advertising are you talking about and how is that going to help the game? 

 

For your two questions:

 

1) For now, we're here to support the Wurm Community for those who want that extra layer of security, or want the additional payment options which PA can provide. 

 

2) Great question. I'm here because I am excited about Wurm and what it represents to the gaming industry as a whole. The importance of Wurm is not necessarily financial, but more in the way of being a place where our user base can find a "home" in a game that actually allows real money trading. It wouldn't be difficult to get people excited about Wurm, and to become fully active members in this community. Warm represents an ideal, they have all been waiting for.

How would this benefit the game? More players. If more players are active in Wurm, then Code Club receives more direct sales through the Wurm Store. With more sales through the Wurm Store, Rolf is able to expand the development team. With a larger development team, Code Club is then able to do even COOLER things for developing Wurm. 

 

The community grows. The game grows.