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Argustin

Buyer beware and warnings are derailing/trolling?

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Hello,


 


Just a question. If i post under WTS or market section some info about the seller/merchandise then it will be removed as derailing or trolling? Not here to blame, point fingers, just want to be sure how the ruling goes? Is it allowed to give info even if that is against the OP who selling the merchandise/service.


 


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It is allowed so long as its not taken too far into personal attacks or insults


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It is allowed so long as its not taken too far into personal attacks or insults

Stating the reputation of seller or if the merchandise has been stolen is considered?

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I think we ought to be able to give sellers ratings in some non trolling way.  We have plenty of people that say "great seller" and such, but any "never buy from this guy" comments are deleted, so how shall we know when a bad seller exists?


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There needs to be a policy for this.

Yep. Just want to be sure, how this is. Sometimes it feels random even if there is no insults. Not saying CM are doing something wrong. Just don´t want to make posts to see them disepear.

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Yep. Just want to be sure, how this is. Sometimes it feels random even if there is no insults. Not saying CM are doing something wrong. Just don´t want to make posts to see them disepear.

You need to do posts which are on topic, wurm is a close knit community, people know who they are buying from, there are rarely any reasons of fraud and such because the GM's have been able to help players when transactions go wrong. Also there is the risk of losing all the reputation in market which causes sellers to be truthful, also there will always be people who are trying to ruin others' reputation, for example : If you have not bought anything from a person, and the person makes a post, and you repeatedly comment on the post that "this guy has a bad reputation, please do not buy from him/her, buyer's beware" then it is you who are at fault because you have never taken any service from the person and still have the balls to comment on his/her post, which is why i believe the forums mods term that as trolling.Just an example,

If you are doing something wrong, people will definately leave you and try some other merchant/service/seller. Thats the rule of trading, after all this is just a game, no one needs to do any personal attacks just like SMejack said.

Edited by Hashirama
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You need to do posts which are on topic, wurm is a close knit community, people know who they are buying from, there are rarely any reasons of fraud and such because the GM's have been able to help players when transactions go wrong. Also there is the risk of losing all the reputation in market which causes sellers to be truthful, also there will always be people who are trying to ruin others' reputation, for example : If you have not bought anything from a person, and the person makes a post, and you repeatedly comment on the post that "this guy has a bad reputation, please do not buy from him/her, buyer's beware" then it is you who are at fault because you have never taken any service from the person and still have the balls to comment on his/her post, which is why i believe the forums mods term that as trolling.Just an example,

If you are doing something wrong, people will definately leave you and try some other merchant/service/seller. Thats the rule of trading, after all this is just a game, no one needs to do any personal attacks just like SMejack said.

How does the GM know if i bought from the seller? Also, some people have bad reputation. It cannot be posted on the thread?

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Moved to Community Assistance.


 


First of all it's rather hard for anybody to prove these accusations.


If you did have personal bad experience with a player 'last time he didnt accept mail', then something like that is okay to mention.


But accusing someone of breaking the rules / stealing something without any way to prove it is on grey area.


We moderators cannot know whether it's true or not, and for both trying to debate / prove it right or wrong usually results in flamewars + derailing.


If you feel that someone has broken the rules / obtained items in 'shady' ways, then best to take it up to GMs for investigations.


 


Silakka, Forum Moderator


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Moved to Community Assistance.

 

First of all it's rather hard for anybody to prove these accusations.

If you did have personal bad experience with a player 'last time he didnt accept mail', then something like that is okay to mention.

But accusing someone of breaking the rules / stealing something without any way to prove it is on grey area.

We moderators cannot know whether it's true or not, and for both trying to debate / prove it right or wrong usually results in flamewars + derailing.

If you feel that someone has broken the rules / obtained items in 'shady' ways, then best to take it up to GMs for investigations.

 

Silakka, Forum Moderator

 

That doesnt work, because if GMs investigate, they still wont publish any findings, and the idea behind this, is that the general forumer/buyer can have a way to see the salesmen record, not only positive interactions, but if he had any negative interactions as well.

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Now pricing has nothing to do with this in my opinion if you feel someone is pricing something to high then just don't bid/buy the item.


 


Like the recent rare caravel that sold i would have thought 30-40s would have been the price for that item yet it went for 75s a price i would have never paid for the small amount of speed boost it gives but it did.  If i had posted that i felt the item was to high for the small speed boost then it might have caused the item to not sell as well and would be wrong of me to do. 


 


To be fair though most of the time any negative posting is just done out of spite and or jealousy to the player that is posting the item and should be removed.  As far as stealing there is no way to steal anything unless you get hacked it is not allowed on the pve servers through game mechanics and on the pvp servers it is allowed so you cant count that as bad on anyone from there. They are just pvping and selling loot even it is a "friend" turned bad it is not stealing but more of a bad judgement call on your end for trusting that person.  


Edited by Kegan
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That doesnt work, because if GMs investigate, they still wont publish any findings, and the idea behind this, is that the general forumer/buyer can have a way to see the salesmen record, not only positive interactions, but if he had any negative interactions as well.

 

I agree that it is rather tricky, and we aren't here to help the 'bad guys', and we are not here to punish people with good intentions, we are simply the moderators.

Our job here is to keep the forums clean and make sure the rules are followed.

You are allowed to share your experience that you had with the person, good/bad. Just need to keep it within lines of what is acceptable to say and what is not.

 

As Kegan said, sometimes you have to just make these decisions for yourself, do you want to get involved with the possibility of making yourself look bad.

Personal experiences are safer to share as you can easily prove it, but if you just heard from a buddy 'hey this guy did this and that' then you can never be 100% sure.

 

Theres always a risk when buying/selling items, reputable buyer/seller or not. That's when it's up to you make sure that nothing goes wrong.

Simple rule is to not trust anybody too much. Best way to have safe deal is to screenshot everything for evidence.

I have personally screenshotted every trade I have made since day one, and thus never been scammed

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Not everybody wants to get in touch with stolen goods, since maybe they been victims too. And to say that something was stolen from a person with unethical methods under my understanding should be tolerated.


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Complete load if bull .

Moderators are sweeping comments and statements of buyer beware under the rug. Does the wurm online staff want to promote and allow for scamming, thieving, and unreliable sellers? It's disgusting to see that people going people warnings is being stopped, and even given warnings because of it. This forum and community is becomming more and more something I never want to be a part of due to the power hungry, nazi moderators who moderate for the hell of it. I have been told time and time again such and such post was removed for a reason which isn't even in the rules.

This post will likely be removed, but it will just prove my point :)

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Kinda got this feeling today also. Not blaming GM-s or pointing fingers at someone specific, but warning someone on a service and telling people about how someone is hunted on a specific server + letting them know that the guarantees made on the service offer were removed and instead there was further derailing and trolling will be punished.


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Reputations are pretty worthless imo, if you are only allowed to have a good reputation :)


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Complete load if bull ######.

Moderators are sweeping comments and statements of buyer beware under the rug. Does the wurm online staff want to promote and allow for scamming, thieving, and unreliable sellers? It's disgusting to see that people going people warnings is being stopped, and even given warnings because of it. This forum and community is becomming more and more something I never want to be a part of due to the power hungry, nazi moderators who moderate for the hell of it. I have been told time and time again such and such post was removed for a reason which isn't even in the rules.

This post will likely be removed, but it will just prove my point :)

Probably removed because they are posted in a rude an insulting way like you do. Your post is exactly the type of thing that should be removed.

Edited by xzea
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Hello All,


 


Things such as this can be a very tricky sort of thing to handle at least from a moderation standpoint. What I mean is that someone stole goods from an account of yours, sure, that may have happened, however, we can't exactly prove that, and thus such things would get removed. Naturally the accused party would deny any accusations, so what is to stop a player from creating false accusations about situations against another player, and posting on nearly every sales thread the accused player creates? Now here is where the trickiness comes in, in that posting such as "hey, I did a deal with this player, and they didn't hold their end of the bargain", those would be acceptable to post, long as the poster presents simple facts on it, and doesn't get personal.


 


Regards,


Shrimpiie (Lead Forum Moderator)


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In turn it also shields shady traders; though, the forums has enjoyed some degree of freedom from such so far.

Granted it's almost a catch 22.

Sure someone could create false accusations; however, it can help if other buyers know who is making he allegations and can thus decide for themselves if the accuser seems credible. Granted that's informally just what a mod does.

For example on eBay, one can go over all the feedback and who made it. Power sellers with feedback in the thousands are always going to have at least approx 5% negative feedback. Some of it even possibly well deserved, even the best seller will miff off someone.

Granted the forums are a lousy alternative to a full blown auction/sales site.

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False accusations should be bannable. Can officials check the logs if someone is accused of false accusation?


 


But there HAS to be a way to let other players know if a player is up to no good. If the only rules are "don't macro" and "deed it or lose it," we have to police ourselves.


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One problem is the manpower and time required. Not to mention forum mods are purely volunteer and practically untrained as compared to that of most decent auction sites. Its a forums, not a dedicated buy/sell site with all the extra features and goodies to support such. The current trade threads just arose adhoc through players needing such a place.


 


Then there's the issue of trying to prove/disprove allegations in the cases of account trades, which are not directly handled by staff, let alone logged directly (third party companies can be rather tight-fisted). This also extends to other transactions of which there are no logs of any real help.


 


Overall situations like these such as checking reputations underscores the growing inadequacies of the current trade threads. The playerbase is growing... these and other problems will simply multiply with the current setup. Hence I can understand the official suggestions for auction sites; though, due to their nature with other mmos, such sites can be rather shady.


 


An ingame auction system for ingame items might help; however, it should not be seen as a cure-all and approached with caution. Such has "ruined" other games in the past, Diablo III as one well known example. Personally any ingame auctioneer/house should be limited regionally, perhaps to the starter deeds of each server.


 


Granted this doesnt help with account sales, which can be a legal grey area if Rolf and co. were to further facilitate. Atm they just turn a blind eye to it.


Edited by Klaa

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Well for example, say someone was buying a whole account character. If all the details of the transaction occured in forum PM, such as saying "I am buying this character from you on paypal for x," and the seller says "yes that is so," and both agree that every detail of the transaction must be set out in forum PM, if the buyer paypals, and the seller doesn't hand the account over, the buyer can show that there was an agreement for a sale. Or maybe use silvers through the mail system, mail a bunch of mixed grass for 100 euros, that kind of thing.


 


Besides theft, I think griefing should be revealed when it's an ongoing thing.


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Reputations are pretty worthless imo, if you are only allowed to have a good reputation :)

This!!!

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Well for example, say someone was buying a whole account character. If all the details of the transaction occured in forum PM, such as saying "I am buying this character from you on paypal for x," and the seller says "yes that is so," and both agree that every detail of the transaction must be set out in forum PM, if the buyer paypals, and the seller doesn't hand the account over, the buyer can show that there was an agreement for a sale. Or maybe use silvers through the mail system, mail a bunch of mixed grass for 100 euros, that kind of thing.

 

Besides theft, I think griefing should be revealed when it's an ongoing thing.

 

Sure that much is logged directly on forums and through a 3rd party such as Paypal; however, whether or not the trade was actually concluded is up in the air. It boils down into a you-said-they-said.

 

On a related note, the company that currently operates one of the early mmos, Ultima Online, allows for character trades between accounts. Not to mention the other companies that have operated it over the years; though, initially such trades were a bannable offense when the mmo went live.

 

Nowadays its not only just allowed, the company provides fairly secure means of trading characters between accounts.

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Sure that much is logged directly on forums and through a 3rd party such as Paypal; however, whether or not the trade was actually concluded is up in the air. It boils down into a you-said-they-said.

 

I tried to call Paypal to see if there's some way to show that a transaction went through but it was in their off-hours; I'll try again. Silvers in-game would be safe I guess but that's expensive for non-euro people.

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