Sign in to follow this  
Chinpow

Wurm is dying. At least Epic is.

Recommended Posts

I have heard Wurm is dying for almost 7 years now, strange how I feel the game keeps getting better.

You play on Freedom, correct? If the PvP side were getting better, Epic and Chaos would have much higher populations. Who knows, maybe PvE wouldn't even exist, considering the first "Freedom servers", known as home servers, were what Deliverance is now. They were free and fully protected loot storage. They were made PvP-enabled. Then they closed, we got Freedom, then Epic. PvE was never in the plan.

I'll admit that the game is getting better, but both sides are not progressing equally. Freedom is getting a lot of changes while PvP either gets broken bandaid fixes, small but good changes few and far between, or nothing at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No reason to get you panties in a bunch just because the nosy little freedumber responded to the OP in the middle of the current "PvPers compare epeen" thread. Thread title is "Wurm is Dying. At least Epic is." and Becket responded to the blatant hyperbole four days ago.


 


And I love how in the middle of all that you dig up that Rolf, in his infinite wisdom, didn't plan to have a non-pvp cluster. He clearly also didn't plan to be in business very long because his great pvp game appeals to even fewer players than his unintended non-pvp game.... hell it doesn't even seem to appeal to the people that play it because all you seem to do is ###### on the forums about it. This game would be long since bankrupt if there was no pve community so quit your whining (not more than a few weeks after a sweep at re-balancing pvp) that your new pvp servers, which dominated dev time for several years, aren't getting the enough attention compared to new furniture models or adding sheep or whatever feature you don't personally appreciate as if there is some sort of rigid, tangible divide between what is for one group and what is for another.


 


And the spirit of your post, you were adopted.


  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about an example of how I got started on Epic to help ease the misconceptions:


 


I played on Golden Valley and Exodus for a total of three years. I had always said that I would never go to Wild/Chaos because I didn't want to lose my stuff. I did not like full loot, but I had never tried it. When Epic released, I said I would never go. I did not want to make a new account and start over. When a friend and neighbor asked me to go, I said no. About a week later, I gave in and when to Epic. It really wasn't that bad. 95% or more of Chaos and Epic is PvE. When someone gives you a hard time, you kill him instead of calling a GM. The people are more civilized than you think. The forums really are a very poor representation of what people are like. Even the biggest and baddest forum trolls are usually good people in game. While I was not very active in PvP, I did go out a few times. I lost gear, but it's not that big of a deal when you have a group that provides gear free of charge. Everyone works together like a team. Many even call it a family. We built a capital deed with 600 slope dirt walls, longhouses, a mine entrance, everything to be expected - all in under a week.


 


The main problem is that PvP servers are surrounded in misconception. You do not realize what they are like until you have been there, but many are not even willing to try new things. This needs to be both a player and developer effort to work.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could design the blueprint for making Wurm a better PvP game, with very little impact changes on the gamecode. With using allready existing programmed features.


Won't happen thou, which is sad, u guys would been blown away with the amount of action there would have been 24/7.


  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could design the blueprint for making Wurm a better PvP game, with very little impact changes on the gamecode. With using allready existing programmed features.

Won't happen thou, which is sad, u guys would been blown away with the amount of action there would have been 24/7.

 

Instead of giving something empty like this, why not share your thoughts that would blow us away

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of giving something empty like this, why not share your thoughts that would blow us away

I think he could suggest Lutefisk. That thing would definitely blow you away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could design the blueprint for making Wurm a better PvP game, with very little impact changes on the gamecode. With using allready existing programmed features.

Won't happen thou, which is sad, u guys would been blown away with the amount of action there would have been 24/7.

The problem is that it has to use the current system as a basis and make changes to that, not make a new system. While you may bring in some more newer PvP players, the existing PvPers don't want it completely casual. Aside from the broken mechanics, the "hard core" features (full loot, etc.) aren't a problem to me. They shouldn't be completely removed, but toned down to a more casual level that is appealing to a wider audience. Like I said, most Freedomers have no idea what is going on in the slightest. It really is way different than you would think.

As an example, 80+ql steel plate is highly valuable on Freedom. On Epic, PvPers sacrifice it because it's actually more of a burden than a help. Loot isn't much of a problem for most groups. Only underdogs have issues when they are getting started or are rebuilding after a catastrophic loss, which doesn't happen all the time (once every few months to a year, if at all depending on the defending and attacking groups).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could design the blueprint for making Wurm a better PvP game, with very little impact changes on the gamecode. With using allready existing programmed features.

Won't happen thou, which is sad, u guys would been blown away with the amount of action there would have been 24/7.

 

I could, I could...

 

Vaporwareâ„¢

 

 

 

 

Also after being playing Wurm for more than a year now, I don't see much good changes nor anything exciting.

 

I understand now why Wurm has that shitty player retention and that low playerbase, and for what I heard, the people that are playing for the longest time is because they have made very good friends/groups or made money.

 

 

So lets talk about how to increase the population and maintaining it for more than a year, and avoid those heavy ups and downs on the player pop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me personally the game didn't get boring, it just got worse because of all these duct-tape fixes and features.


From what I understand Epic was meant to be this cluster where all the big battles get fought out, where the Wurm story gets written(i.e. played) by players,  and where "the fate of the world" is decided so to speak with scenarios and stuff.


What we got was the Valrei board, a neat idea but the actual implementation is crippled to hell and back, it's been crippled since day 1, and it never got fixed, only changed, broken as ever. I won't even go into detail as to what is broken because I'm pretty sure everyone thinks it is broken in different ways, mainly because nobody knows how it is supposed to work in the first place. At least we all agree on that it's broken though (If you don't, you haven't really played Epic).


Rolf added "overpowered spells and sorcery" about a year(?) or so back. A part of these spells still don't work, a part does work but is useless, and another part works but is either too weak or too strong (again, subjective). A (really nice) effort was made by one of the devs to balance these spells, but he went on holiday at  some point and seemed to have forgotten afterwards.


 


the combat mechanics are ######, don't lie to yourself. They are. The fun thing about pve combat in wurm is that it requires very little effort, you just have to roam around a bit and stand next to a mob for long enough for it to die. Lots of players think this is fine, and maybe it is for the pve side. Unfortunately the exact same mechanics apply in pvp, with as an added bonus that priests do make a difference there (and sorcerors, kind of.. meh I guess not, staffs too valuable etc). Priests are unbalanced and they are SUPPOSED to be "unbalanced" to an extent because the design is asymmetrical (In multiple ways too, why can MR only have 1 champ for example, oh yeah and this lack of balance reflects on the Valrei board since JK's gods can actually work together to win), Something like this is extremely hard if not impossible to be balanced in a way that any situation with equiv. players/priests on both sides is purely dependent on player skill. Devs have made an effort to change this but for every good change they made came another change that made my brain implode. And again, thinking of a change as good or bad is completely subjective, and as changes benefit different groups of players nobody ever agrees on what change is good or bad (except for stuff that affects EVERYTHING like archery through helmets and stuff).


 


So why the hell is pvp even fun to begin with? Full loot, tactics (once you engage in combat there is usually no way out, so you have to have a good idea of when to engage etc.), the ability to actually change the world by just fighting everyone who doesn't agree with you (from "I'll kill you if you deed there" to week long sessions of draining a deed every day to get rid of it), Fame (It's a small game, if you participate in combat a lot, people will recognize you and if you're successful they will remember you). These fun factors are really damn hardcore though, your average Minecraft player will cry and possibly suicide if you punch his brick castle. There's a reason only 1/10000 MMO's have full/partial loot in pvp. It's bloody hardcore and creates a huge gap between success and failure (As opposed to only your rank dropping or missing out on honor tokens so you will only get your special honor weapon after 101 matches instead of 100 matches).


 


For me though, the constant screwups in game mechanics and and apparent lack of attention when writing patch notes and all those other little annoyances outweigh the fun I get when pvping.


 


Promoting wurm pvp to a wide audience is impossible when the target group is this narrow. There is no wide audience to appeal to.


 


P.S. Don't get me wrong, I think what Rolf and his team have achieved is very impressive considering they're only a few people, but it just isn't enough to provide a fun pvp experience at this point. Not to me at least.


  • Like 17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the truth

If Code Club were publically traded, I'd buy stock in anticipation of board elections for Mono.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said, Monokles.


 


Edit: Except one thing, the combat model isn't even adequate for PvE... it's horribly boring. This time around I rushed to 70 FS just in case some old mates wanted to invite me to kill a dragon or something, but since then I don't bother. Some of the new art is fantastic, but with very few exceptions combat consists of running up, optimizing range and paying just enough attention to ride away if it isn't gong well. If you really want to add some "excitement" you can bother to mess with focus (about as fun as rolling a die over and over and over and over) or play with a special move (fail, fail, fail, works but did what?). Oh and you can move around the attack vector to skew the rolls a bit one way or the other and change the outcome by a few %.


 


Excitement!


Edited by Othob Rithol
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said, Monokles.

 

Edit: Except one thing, the combat model isn't even adequate for PvE... it's horribly boring. This time around I rushed to 70 FS just in case some old mates wanted to invite me to kill a dragon or something, but since then I don't bother. Some of the new art is fantastic, but with very few exceptions combat consists of running up, optimizing range and paying just enough attention to ride away if it isn't gong well. If you really want to add some "excitement" you can bother to mess with focus (about as fun as rolling a die over and over and over and over) or play with a special move (fail, fail, fail, works but did what?). Oh and you can move around the attack vector to skew the rolls a bit one way or the other and change the outcome by a few %.

 

Excitement!

You can do focus and special moves IF you fight long enough. Most PvE fights don't last that long even with 1h weapons. I think i've gotten to use focus on trolls and some champions i think... Pretty much all else dies before you get there.

And here's another retarded thing about how those things work. If you're fighting 2 or more enemies at once, even if you are there for long enough to trigger focus, as soon as the first guy goes the timer resets. So basically even trying to make battles lengthier with more enemies just increases the damage you take, not your offensive options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me personally the game didn't get boring, it just got worse because of all these duct-tape fixes and features.

From what I understand Epic was meant to be this cluster where all the big battles get fought out, where the Wurm story gets written(i.e. played) by players,  and where "the fate of the world" is decided so to speak with scenarios and stuff.

What we got was the Valrei board, a neat idea but the actual implementation is crippled to hell and back, it's been crippled since day 1, and it never got fixed, only changed, broken as ever. I won't even go into detail as to what is broken because I'm pretty sure everyone thinks it is broken in different ways, mainly because nobody knows how it is supposed to work in the first place. At least we all agree on that it's broken though (If you don't, you haven't really played Epic).

Rolf added "overpowered spells and sorcery" about a year(?) or so back. A part of these spells still don't work, a part does work but is useless, and another part works but is either too weak or too strong (again, subjective). A (really nice) effort was made by one of the devs to balance these spells, but he went on holiday at  some point and seemed to have forgotten afterwards.

 

the combat mechanics are ######, don't lie to yourself. They are. The fun thing about pve combat in wurm is that it requires very little effort, you just have to roam around a bit and stand next to a mob for long enough for it to die. Lots of players think this is fine, and maybe it is for the pve side. Unfortunately the exact same mechanics apply in pvp, with as an added bonus that priests do make a difference there (and sorcerors, kind of.. meh I guess not, staffs too valuable etc). Priests are unbalanced and they are SUPPOSED to be "unbalanced" to an extent because the design is asymmetrical (In multiple ways too, why can MR only have 1 champ for example, oh yeah and this lack of balance reflects on the Valrei board since JK's gods can actually work together to win), Something like this is extremely hard if not impossible to be balanced in a way that any situation with equiv. players/priests on both sides is purely dependent on player skill. Devs have made an effort to change this but for every good change they made came another change that made my brain implode. And again, thinking of a change as good or bad is completely subjective, and as changes benefit different groups of players nobody ever agrees on what change is good or bad (except for stuff that affects EVERYTHING like archery through helmets and stuff).

 

So why the hell is pvp even fun to begin with? Full loot, tactics (once you engage in combat there is usually no way out, so you have to have a good idea of when to engage etc.), the ability to actually change the world by just fighting everyone who doesn't agree with you (from "I'll kill you if you deed there" to week long sessions of draining a deed every day to get rid of it), Fame (It's a small game, if you participate in combat a lot, people will recognize you and if you're successful they will remember you). These fun factors are really damn hardcore though, your average Minecraft player will cry and possibly suicide if you punch his brick castle. There's a reason only 1/10000 MMO's have full/partial loot in pvp. It's bloody hardcore and creates a huge gap between success and failure (As opposed to only your rank dropping or missing out on honor tokens so you will only get your special honor weapon after 101 matches instead of 100 matches).

 

For me though, the constant screwups in game mechanics and and apparent lack of attention when writing patch notes and all those other little annoyances outweigh the fun I get when pvping.

 

Promoting wurm pvp to a wide audience is impossible when the target group is this narrow. There is no wide audience to appeal to.

 

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I think what Rolf and his team have achieved is very impressive considering they're only a few people, but it just isn't enough to provide a fun pvp experience at this point. Not to me at least.

 

For me personally the game didn't get boring, it just got worse because of all these duct-tape fixes and features.

From what I understand Epic was meant to be this cluster where all the big battles get fought out, where the Wurm story gets written(i.e. played) by players,  and where "the fate of the world" is decided so to speak with scenarios and stuff.

What we got was the Valrei board, a neat idea but the actual implementation is crippled to hell and back, it's been crippled since day 1, and it never got fixed, only changed, broken as ever. I won't even go into detail as to what is broken because I'm pretty sure everyone thinks it is broken in different ways, mainly because nobody knows how it is supposed to work in the first place. At least we all agree on that it's broken though (If you don't, you haven't really played Epic).

Rolf added "overpowered spells and sorcery" about a year(?) or so back. A part of these spells still don't work, a part does work but is useless, and another part works but is either too weak or too strong (again, subjective). A (really nice) effort was made by one of the devs to balance these spells, but he went on holiday at  some point and seemed to have forgotten afterwards.

 

the combat mechanics are ######, don't lie to yourself. They are. The fun thing about pve combat in wurm is that it requires very little effort, you just have to roam around a bit and stand next to a mob for long enough for it to die. Lots of players think this is fine, and maybe it is for the pve side. Unfortunately the exact same mechanics apply in pvp, with as an added bonus that priests do make a difference there (and sorcerors, kind of.. meh I guess not, staffs too valuable etc). Priests are unbalanced and they are SUPPOSED to be "unbalanced" to an extent because the design is asymmetrical (In multiple ways too, why can MR only have 1 champ for example, oh yeah and this lack of balance reflects on the Valrei board since JK's gods can actually work together to win), Something like this is extremely hard if not impossible to be balanced in a way that any situation with equiv. players/priests on both sides is purely dependent on player skill. Devs have made an effort to change this but for every good change they made came another change that made my brain implode. And again, thinking of a change as good or bad is completely subjective, and as changes benefit different groups of players nobody ever agrees on what change is good or bad (except for stuff that affects EVERYTHING like archery through helmets and stuff).

 

So why the hell is pvp even fun to begin with? Full loot, tactics (once you engage in combat there is usually no way out, so you have to have a good idea of when to engage etc.), the ability to actually change the world by just fighting everyone who doesn't agree with you (from "I'll kill you if you deed there" to week long sessions of draining a deed every day to get rid of it), Fame (It's a small game, if you participate in combat a lot, people will recognize you and if you're successful they will remember you). These fun factors are really damn hardcore though, your average Minecraft player will cry and possibly suicide if you punch his brick castle. There's a reason only 1/10000 MMO's have full/partial loot in pvp. It's bloody hardcore and creates a huge gap between success and failure (As opposed to only your rank dropping or missing out on honor tokens so you will only get your special honor weapon after 101 matches instead of 100 matches).

 

For me though, the constant screwups in game mechanics and and apparent lack of attention when writing patch notes and all those other little annoyances outweigh the fun I get when pvping.

 

Promoting wurm pvp to a wide audience is impossible when the target group is this narrow. There is no wide audience to appeal to.

 

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I think what Rolf and his team have achieved is very impressive considering they're only a few people, but it just isn't enough to provide a fun pvp experience at this point. Not to me at least.

 

Is a shame that I can like a post only one time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect that most MMOs have either some or all parts of their codebase "shared" between PVE and PVP. In other words, patching a feature for PVP can sometimes affect PVE or vice-versa because the code for each is not logically separated in design. In other words, the code isn't written in such a way that the game has a PVE module, a PVP module and a mixed PVE/PVP module where each can be patched independently or common patches applied across the board depending on the situation. This could be why you see a lot of MMO devs that struggle to balance between PVE, PVP and mixed PVE/PVP aspects of an MMO. It's inherent in the design and by the time the game is live, it's already too late because you can't go back and make massive changes to the code so easily.


 


I guess the most common thing I've seen is that there are players who like pure PVE, players who like pure PVP and players who like a mixed PVE and PVP environment. There will be those who don't want certain PVP features to infringe on their PVE, those who don't want certain PVE features to infringe on their PVP, and those who want the best of both worlds. Personally, I see those as three separate use cases. However, I don't think I have seen any MMO to date that was built to handle things this way. Therefore, we continue to see forums in most MMOs ripe with user complaints about balancing, features, mechanics, etc. and battles between PVEers, PVPers and mixed PVE/PVPers about what the devs should be doing. From the devs' perspective they are getting three different messages from three different audiences with three differents sets of needs/wants and have to find some magical way to make them all happy.


 


When anyone says things like "Wurm Online and Why I Left" or "Wurm is Dying" and they start spelling out why they feel this way, it often leads me right back to thinking about what I wrote above. In any case, it seems to me that the Wurm Online devs are doing a pretty decent job of patching PVP features of the game without it affecting PVE or vice-versa. While I understand that there may still have been instances where one affected the other, again it leads me to think about what I wrote above. At the end of the day, I'm still enjoying myself way more here than in any other MMO I have ever played and that to me is all that really matters. I can see myself playing Wurm Online well into the future.


 


As for Chinpow's post using the above thinking as the basis for my answers...


 


- PVE or MIXED PVE/PVP - 3. Make mid\high-end PvE content. It could be castles\garrisons with guards\human NPCs\goblins\whatever that can sometimes drop weapons\armor that is worth using.


 


- PVP or MIXED PVE/PVP - Allow safe PvP. There should be a place where people can try fighting without risking their equipment. Arena or something. Where people can learn and have their fun.


 


- PVP or MIXED PVE/PVP - Make PvP more meaningful. There should be things people want to fight over: resource spawns, monster spawns, i.e. important areas to control. It's just a general idea, as we all understand what this is about. We all can generate a ton of ideas.


 


As a dedicated PVE player do I really care about the above features? No, but it doesn't mean others won't be.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone cast Rebirth on the year old thread talking about how Epic is dying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we need a map reset pls


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh hello old thread. What have we learned the past year? 


 


- Java is still dying


- Wurm dev is still slow


- Epic is still losing members


- Wurm is still a dinosaur


- Effort spent still exceeds fun received


- Deeds still turn you into crack addicts


- Still can't 1-way travel [with skills] from Freedom to Epic (le sigh)


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Epic is not dying. If you think so then you don't play hard enough. I am on elevation. Our deed was attacked. Then players came from MR to help defend. Its alive and well.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really? A 4+ year necro?  Well searched, I guess...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The player count does not reflect your statement. When epic is down to its last player it is still not dead, but it is very much dying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this