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Rolf

Recommending Player Auctions

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paypal has 0 protection for virtual items.


 


these guy offer insurance.  my earlier post was about the first time I got an account 800$ us account stolen back by the owner.  players auctions got me the 800$ back .  store credit wise  but still , and this was 6 months after I bought the account . they still helped me out.  


 


paypal won't even look into it once you state it's an online account or item.


 


 


but still 7 yrs since I used them not 100% sure what may have changed.  only guess is better vs worse. go to their web site and read buyers and sellers info. 


 


I do admit I don't like the gold farm aspect of the site though.  but  i'm sure it's how they make money from the % they take form the sales


Edited by validate

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Hi Coastis,

 

Our site does not encourage users to break terms and contractual obligations quite the contrary actually. It is a matter of real, and legal implications which, if you are interested I can share personally with you, not to argue of course, but if you are genuinely interested in the legal aspects which keep us in business, then I'd be happy to share.

 

As for the verification we require; it is inevitable. 

 

For one, not only do we want to protect the marketplace against fraudsters, but we also have to take due diligence to protect ourselves since at the end of the day, if fraud does occur, it is us who absorbs and deals with it.

 

Secondly, because our business has an escrow component to it, we need to comply with certain federal laws for businesses which are involved in the flow of funds. What with Bitcoin drawing more attention to virtual currencies, and regulators begin to ramp up regulation on it, we see fit to be in compliance before any issues arise in the future. 

 

SO, when I say it's inevitable, I mean so because... if we're going to protect users and absorb all fraud, then it would be fairly silly of us not to take proper measures to protect ourselves, and second... if regulation does tighten in the future, it'd be better for us to be safe in compliance than sorry and shut down. 

 

That being said, we are exploring new verification models, but still evaluating them presently (if that matters at all to you). If you are a fan of risk management and have suggestions, please PM me.

 

And anyway, if we were taking personally identifiable documents from users and abusing them... I think we'd have been shut down by now. Thank goodness we don't, we're celebrating our 15 year anniversary next year.  :)

TLDR:

We dont care about the TOS you agreed to...we will just bring litigation against the companies you game with, who will pass their legal fees on to you, the gamer.

And...because certain precedents were set in korea...we will do what we want here.  We are safe...It doesnt matter if your accounts are...or the developers of the games you play.

Edited by saraie

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there's really no security that can be offered via this website compared to just a direct payment sent forward to another person via the paypal website.  ebay doesn't allow virtual goods to be sold because of the several loopholes it causes, and in the end even if you use this website, you can still easily be scammed by ignoring the website, and going right to paypal.  

 

the website might be a good middleman, but it in no how offers security assuming of course this site uses paypal which 99% sure it does

As someone who posted they brought an account for $800, then ended up with some crappy store credit they had to spend on something else on this site after it turned out the seller was illegitimate and selling stolen goods, this place just reeks of a site that covers the bad sellers.

I paid 800$ us for a final fantasy 11 high end account. it was stolen back by owner 6 months later. I emailed players auctions and they looked into it. I got 800$ store credit, cant money back. but at least I got the 800$ value back to use. I bought eve online account and isk and I think everquest plat.

^ If I wanted to spend $800 on Wurm Online and got ripped off, why the hell would I then invest that $800 in another game?

In Wurm, anything value is generally well tracked with a few sour deals largely being due to items/hacked accounts that the GM team resolve typically.

Unless you fail to follow the simple account security measures detailed throughout the forums such as changing passwords, linked emails, reset questions and not sharing access to your account I don't think I've ever heard of anything going wrong assuming the rules are followed?

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so no they didnt get you $800, you got credit, that's not the same.  the scammer on other hand got a free account and kept all his money.


 


 they can't protect you against paypal's virtual goods policies, all they can do is give you play money in their shop.  


Edited by Postes
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Well bottom line for me is i wont be using them but i will be more selective in who i sell to now. I am not trying to make a living off real money trades anyway just to have some fun and game coins to spend along the way. 


Edited by Kegan
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I'd be afraid to use your website personally looks like a gold farmer site to me not an auction house. Lets say I sell my blue party hat in runescape (example) whats stopping me from getting banned? Terms of service in runescape is really against real market trades. That's just one mmo you have quite a large listing here.

 

Party hats sell for insane amounts of money on PA, and I don't understand why. :)  

 

There is a risk of getting banned in those games, it's true. However the demand is there. People trade, even if PlayerAuctions existed or not, the would still trade. But having PA as an option to help protect against payment fraud, or item fraud... is a better option to go with if they are going to trade and assume the risk of banning.

 

One day, a gamer will get banned from a game publisher, and with the right means and resources, they will challenge the game publisher in court for their right to property. 

 

The fact of the matter is, you don't have to be banned. It is an unfair statute levied against consumers. 

 

I think the biggest thing you are going to be dealing with is a small tight knit group of players who have been  trading and playing this game for a long time.  You will be seen as the outsider coming in trying to change things and grab a piece of the action going on.  We rarely see problems here in Wurm and many of us have sold items,accounts,etc.. to the tune of 100,300,500,1000+ eu's with no problems at all.  I would say any problems like what you are protecting against with your service are the exception to the norm here and might be something a new player would use if they don't trust anyone or a player who doesnt know anyone.

 

 So yeah there might be some benefit to certain types of players or for spur of the moment type sales, But for the most part I do not see many people using this type of service at all. The thing that really bugs me is the fact that this service  charges quite a bit to use so unless its a very high transaction it seems more of a hassle than anything else.  The effect might be a small increase seen in prices for those who use this service, but people will use trusted sellers in Wurm for less more than likely.

 

I do wish they would have added an in game Auction House for items that players could bid on with in game silvers to keep that side of the deal still in game.  The Forums are clumsy at times and a better system in game  would help the players and make the game better.  Adding an outside auction service that charges a fee to trade is not what most of the players had in mind at all. Perhaps for account sales it might be something to consider for those players who absolutely cannot trust anyone else.

 

This is probably one of my favorite posts so far. I very much appreciate the tone and thoughts behind your post Uber. As PA is optional, we're here for the people who want that extra security, or who want the extra payment options, or for new people who want a thorough verification system to help them build up feedback/reputation for when they are established enough to trade directly on the forums. 

 

As for the wish of adding an in-game auction house. Hosting a real money auction house is immensely complicated from a development, operational, legal, and business side to do so. Case in point, Blizzard charged users 15% for Diablo 3 in-game auction house, and PayPal charged another 15% to receive payouts, equalling a 30% margin. Having an in-game real money auction house is something only the largest game companies have done (Blizzard, Steam, Valve), and even other large companies have outsourced management of in-game auction houses (Sony Online Entertainment). 

 

Additionally, when applying real world value to virtual items, comes liability for property. By partnering with PA, Code Club absolves its self of liability since they are not facilitating the real world money trades themselves :)

 

And many people are saying we are here to just take a piece of the cut. Sure we are. We need a way to pay our employees, run our servers, and save up for our kid's college tuition, and go out for happy hour once in awhile. As much as we'd love PA to be a hobby, it is a full time job, with expenses to boot. Compared to Blizzard/Paypal's 30% for Diablo 3 in-game auction house, I think it's reasonable to deduce that PA is far more lean than what some are insinuating, and that in truth, we do pass a lot of savings on to users with full protection. 

 

For now, we're trying this out. Perhaps it will end in the opportunity for both PA and Code Club to dream big, and if not... then at least the option of PA is there for those who want totally secured trading :)  I can't see too much harm in providing options, and giving it a go  :wub:

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Hi Coastis,

 

Our site does not encourage users to break terms and contractual obligations quite the contrary actually. It is a matter of real, and legal implications which, if you are interested I can share personally with you, not to argue of course, but if you are genuinely interested in the legal aspects which keep us in business, then I'd be happy to share.

 

 

Yes please, i would love for you to publicly explain to me how your business model of getting people to sell in game items for real world cash doesn't break the terms of services of said games that explicitly state such an action is against their ToS and can result in the loss of your account.

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Yes please, i would love for you to publicly explain to me how your business model of getting people to sell in game items for real world cash doesn't break the terms of services of said games that explicitly state such an action is against their ToS and can result in the loss of your account.

 

Don't think that you've called a bluff. I'll respond tomorrow, but for now, I need to turn in. 

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Anyhow Like I was saying an In game system for SILVERS and not $$$$ would have been much better.


Having to go outside the game and sign into another place like a forums just adds to the clumsiness of it all


and on top of that the new place only uses $$$ and not silvers.  


 


Hopefully some day Rolf will give the players an in game auction system with silver and items with no cash or real world money involved.


 


People who want to use real world cash can go to places like what is suggested here in this thread if they want too.


I'd just like an In Game option to trade and auction items without involving real world currency.


Using this system as some kind of place holder and/or possibly as something that delays Wurm


from giving the players a better in game trading system is kind of sad really.


Edited by Uberknot

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LOL this guy...acquiring merchant account <---- DOOD PAYPAL ACCEPTS CREDIT CARDS WITHOUT HAVING A PAYPAL ACCOUNT. Who are you trying to fool you scammer. I think your entire company is a rip off. Keep trades on forums!


 


I think this is MarkeeDragon trying to make another buck for a half done service? HAHAHA.


Edited by Calypsoi

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Anyhow Like I was saying an In game system for SILVERS and not $$$$ would have been much better.

Having to go outside the game and sign into another place like a forums just adds to the clumsiness of it all

and on top of that the new place only uses $$$ and not silvers.  

 

Hopefully some day Rolf will give the players an in game auction system with silver and items with no cash or real world money involved. <----------------

 

People who want to use real world cash can go to places like what is suggested here in this thread if they want too.

I'd just like an In Game option to trade and auction items without involving real world currency.

Using this system as some kind of place holder and/or possibly as something that delays Wurm

from giving the players a better in game trading system is kind of sad really.

Do you understand how silvers get into the game?

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Yes please, i would love for you to publicly explain to me how your business model of getting people to sell in game items for real world cash doesn't break the terms of services of said games that explicitly state such an action is against their ToS and can result in the loss of your account.

He can justify it by saying that he, or his company, do not personally agree to the TOS, even though their customers certainly do.  Its not only against those rules to buy that currency, its also against the rules to sell it.  Do a simple google search for accounts banned as a result of doing business not just with sites like this one on topic...but that EXACT site.

 

They may also justify their actions, by claiming that they believe its a gamers right...to do with their in game items as they see fit, ignoring the fact that every person agrees to the TOS.  Ignoring the fact that developers, coders, and publishers have the right to protect their own intellectual and digital property...lets use a simple analogy..

 

It does not matter if I believe its my right to drive as fast as I like...I may even tell you about the speed limit on the Autobahn.

The fact remains that there are rules and laws. If I want to change those rules, I can use the avenues available to me, to try to change them...but before that,  the rules are the rules..and at least where I live, I agreed to follow them when I was given my drivers license.

 

Its my opinion that, the content creators, producers, coders, and distributors have every right to make the rules for the worlds they imagined,and created.  The wonderful thing is..I dont have to break the rules, and hide in the shadows If I dont like the rules of a particular game, I'm free to create my own game if I wish.

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Heres the real kicker. I wonder how many big game companies have weighed the cost benefit of taking them to court for using their branding (logo's etc) without proper permission/copyright information. Heh...probably just was not worth the lawyer fees but they are certainly breaking the law.


 


Because I know FOR SURE most of those games do not want people visiting that site.


Edited by Calypsoi

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Heres the real kicker. I wonder how many big game companies have weighed the cost benefit of taking them to court for using their branding (logo's etc) without proper permission/copyright information. Heh...probably just was not worth the lawyer fees but they are certainly breaking the law.

 

Because I know FOR SURE most of those games do not want people visiting that site.

Its happened before...

 

http://blog.games.com/2010/04/14/zynga-sues-playerauctions-for-trademark-infringement/

 

Heres the original complaint:

http://www.frontrangelegalservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/zynga-playerauctions.pdf

Edited by saraie

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You guys are comparing other games that PA sell for.


 


What you are forgetting is the Owner of WURM has given his approval to use this Site and PA are not breaking any rules helping sellers and buyers in Wurm trade safely....


 


TBH this is a good idea for those higher value trades but i dont see this being used for the lower part.... but we will see.


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It is not a good idea to associate yourself with this site regardless of anything. The types of players that use this site are the types that do not care for clearly written rules, what do you think they are going to do about the unwritten community understood courtasies when they see wurm and go oh let me try that game.


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You guys are comparing other games that PA sell for.

 

What you are forgetting is the Owner of WURM has given his approval to use this Site and PA are not breaking any rules helping sellers and buyers in Wurm trade safely....

 

TBH this is a good idea for those higher value trades but i dont see this being used for the lower part.... but we will see.

 

The point of it all was about dealing with shady businesses who practice shady practices.

If they are willing to facilitate breaking of the TOS, or EULA of other MMOs...then how long will they respect the ones here?

 

Its also about if we would trust them with our REAL WORLD money.

 

Trust is verified by history, and reputation, and while Rolf may have been offered a fantastic and profitable opportunity here, some simple research will uncover many hundreds of people who have lost accounts, items, currency as a direct result of dealing with gold sellers, including this one.  

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I own Eve accounts and would not use this site to do char/item sales as it is clearly against the rules .. that CCP enforce.... 


 


However Wurm/Rolf allow these trades through his game.. and have clearly stated that they will take no responsibility of botched sales .. all Rolf is doing here is allowing the buyers and sellers of wurm to trade much safer .. Heh its 10%... for a large sale it is a bit of $$ but if you get scammed it is a much higher LOSS.

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Hey Player Auctions guy.....


 


This is from your User Agreement:


 



5.5

Third Party Rights. Each User hereby represents, warrants and agrees that it has obtained all necessary third party copyright, trademark, trade secret or patent licenses and permissions, or such other licenses or permissions as may be required in connection with any other personal or proprietary rights of any third party (including but not limited to rights of personality and rights of privacy), for any material or information it posts on the Site or provides to PlayerAuctions or authorizes PlayerAuctions to display. Each User hereby represents, warrants and agrees that it shall be solely responsible for ensuring that any material or information it posts on the Site or provides to PlayerAuctions or authorizes PlayerAuctions to display does not, and that the products represented thereby do not, violate any Third Party Rights, or is posted with the permission of the owner(s) of such rights. Each User hereby represents, warrants and agrees that it has the right to manufacture, offer, sell, import and distribute the products it offers and displays on the Site, and that such manufacture, offer, sale, importation and/or distribution of those products violates no Third Party Rights.


 



 


 


I would at this time like to officially report every single post from any game other than wurm, and ask that you respect your own user agreement and ban all accounts. As per this section of your agreement those people do not have the third party rights to post what they are trying to sell. 


 


Regards,


My attorney.


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The difference here is that Rolf expressly encourages the association and affiliation with this site to conduct real world transactions of Wurm Online virtual goods and currencies. The rest is a matter of transaction security. This site has the green flag of the developer. This site gets a red flag from this particular player based on experiences from other games in which "goldsellers" who use similar sites run rampant in the chat systems and virtual landscapes.


 


This is the last I have to say about it. Rolf endorses and encourages this and it is his company and his IP. However, I will not use it.


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You people are crazy. 


 


Lets change examples, lets say that there is a site that streams hollywood movies for free. Are you saying if one person makes a movie and gives it to them to stream full permissions, the rest of the site is ok because hey they got one thats legit?


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Absolutely not. I won't be using it. I know what "goldsellers" do to games. Seen the movie Field of Dreams? Build it and he will come.


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Hey Player Auctions guy.....

 

This is from your User Agreement:

 

5.5

Third Party Rights. Each User hereby represents, warrants and agrees that it has obtained all necessary third party copyright, trademark, trade secret or patent licenses and permissions, or such other licenses or permissions as may be required in connection with any other personal or proprietary rights of any third party (including but not limited to rights of personality and rights of privacy), for any material or information it posts on the Site or provides to PlayerAuctions or authorizes PlayerAuctions to display. Each User hereby represents, warrants and agrees that it shall be solely responsible for ensuring that any material or information it posts on the Site or provides to PlayerAuctions or authorizes PlayerAuctions to display does not, and that the products represented thereby do not, violate any Third Party Rights, or is posted with the permission of the owner(s) of such rights. Each User hereby represents, warrants and agrees that it has the right to manufacture, offer, sell, import and distribute the products it offers and displays on the Site, and that such manufacture, offer, sale, importation and/or distribution of those products violates no Third Party Rights.

 

 

 

I would at this time like to officially report every single post from any game other than wurm, and ask that you respect your own user agreement and ban all accounts. As per this section of your agreement those people do not have the third party rights to post what they are trying to sell. 

 

Regards,

My attorney.

 

 

Ding Ding Ding.....

 

Your very own ToS say that you cannot do what you are trying to do lol. Every game reserves the rights of all material and ideas and every aspect of their game as their property thus no player can sell it cuz they do not own it. And your own ToS state that Players cannot sell on your very own site unless they get the very rights that game companies will not give........By all rights you guys should shut your selves down and go out of business...your breaking your own ToS.

 

Now I understand why this clause is in your ToS, its to protect yourself and to use it as the way out of anyone coming after you, you are passing the responsibility onto the seller and off of yourself and it works, but it goes to show just more shady business actions....

 

If a business cannot be up front and honest with its customers and it cannot conduct business in such a way that is both legal and ethical, then they should not be in business.

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Buying accounts and buying coins from third parties has always been risky, not only in Wurm, but in every MMO since the beginning of MMO's. Wurm should just follow suit with every other company and ban these sorts of things outright.


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Buying accounts and buying coins from third parties has always been risky, not only in Wurm, but in every MMO since the beginning of MMO's. Wurm should just follow suit with every other company and ban these sorts of things outright.

I totally disagree, every game has the right to set up its own means of operations. I'm not against the buying and selling of in game currency/items for real life money, however I am against it if it goes against said games ToS. If a game allows it great, if not great, I agree to those ToS when I play and I try my best to play by those ToS and I expect everyone else to as well or be held accountable for not doing so. If wurm would stop allowing the the buying and selling for real life money, I believe wurm would be no more.

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