Rare coin rewards, Xanadu Ore redistribution!

[Berris 587]

I got a rare coin from trader draining ... it wasn't an iron coin but it did sense a bit of irony.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

I understand that, but its also not fair to say buy this for 50s and get this reward for it then completely take it away without refunding the item. Regardless of if people got their money back or not (not all have) a refund should be issued.

 

 

 

I don't think "trader draining" was ever the original intended purpose for traders.

 

People soon found the game mechanic actually favored buying a trader, locking it away in a secure windowless building where no one else could access, manipulate the ratios through careful "investment banker" work, then #4 PROFIT.  But I don;t think I have ever heard a suggestion that Rolf added traders specifically so people would buy them, lock them off in a closet and milk them for personal revenues.

 

That is how traders ended up actually working in practice -- yes. For years people have asked that game mechanic be fixed. Some said it was a harmless side effect that ended up actually benefiting the game by improving cash shop sales and income revenue for Rolf.  That could be true also and I am not arguing against whether there was a side effect that was beneficial. But  I don't think you can turn around now and ask for a full refund because YOU intended to use a game mechanic in a specific way that was clearly never its primary purpose. I would say the vast majority of traders long long ago recovered their initial 50s so-called  "investment" -- but even if they didn't, tough cookies for you. You knew people have been asking for this "fix"  for years and you knew it didn't even "feel" like a legitimate purpose for traders.   If that was it's true purpose, it would not have required locked up secret buildings -- it would have had an option "allow only ME to sell items" or turn off buying at owner discretion (turn back on at "milking time". No one said it was wrong so you took that as permission to do this  -- and that is fine.  You DID have tacit "permission" to continue this practice, if only through silence. 

 

If people use a game mechanic in a way that is not its purpose, it may be legal and it may even be "good for the game" (or that might be rationalizing?) but I don't think they can turn around and ask for their money back if the game mechanic is later altered to NOT favor their specific personal use of it. 

Edited October 18, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors

[joedobo 1,187]

Honesty is to give a refund. 20s is what as been done on multiple occasions in the past. 

 

 

Revengeful and spiteful is not giving a refund..."serves you right", "you should have known better".

 

 

There was never an official announcement about how players should or should not use Traders. Never a warning about reproductions for using traders in unintended ways, nor any information on what is intended. Consequently, its extremely unethical to come back after the fact and penalize players because they didn't predict the future or second guess what was intended. These trader owning players, played the game as it was presented and followed the rules as required. 

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

There is a difference between following the rules and not breaking the rules.     Trader owners did not break any rules. No one ever said they did.   They are also not currently being penalized (ie, punished for their actions).   Those traders have not been taken away. No one has had their accounts suspended, reprimanded, scolded or warned. But that does not mean there is some obligation to keep your little golden gameplay-mechanic gooses laying eggs forever and ever,  just because for a time, they did.   My understanding is, players are continuing to get some profits off their locked up traders.  Not as much as before. 

 

Rolf is not trying to penalize/punish trader owners. He likely thought players were pretty clever. But he has always stated his intent in silver redistribution, was to stimulate the economy by having money move thorough as many pockets as possible.  This silver redistrubtion method was changed.  Instead of only a few people having the "job" of "recirculating" silver, for a onetime 50 silver buyin fee and a lifetime payout, there are now more methods, affecting much more of the playerbase in the recirculation.    I know you would like to think you were only loyal foot soldiers trying your  darnedest  to carry out Rolf's economic battleplan, but honestly, I don't think you are being very "honest", with yourself or with us, if you think you are now being "punished" because the silver redistribution method no longer redistributes primarily to you.    This discussion has gone on for years now. Anyone who continued to buy into the trader system after maybe 2011 or so, did so knowing there was a risk involved that the gold might not flow forever, and while most would probably make back their initial 50s investment, there was never a guarantee they would -- even during the "goodtimes" there was never a guarantee that they would earn back their 50s.  The trader owners took a risk, and for the vast majority that risk paid off many many many times over. For some it continues to pay off, quite well.  It does not mean you are being "punished" if this gold does not continue to flow to you forever. 

 

What I would prefer to see rather than being "reimbursed" for using traders in an unintended manner, is to CHANGE traders to carry out their original intent better, and in a way that makes trader owners happy content  with the change.   One intent was to help recirculate silver (which did not work out very well)  but also one trader-specific mechanic was for owners to tax trader sales to help pay their deed costs. I don't know the best way to get that tax-upkeep intent "back on track." Maybe allow owners to pack up and move their traders around to different locations where people are more  likely to buy from them (or even load them into a Travelling Trader Wagon).  Maybe allow players to sell their traders without requiring the buyer to also buy their windowless prison 1s dwarfdeeds hidden in the darkest remote corners of the wilderness. Add other abilities to encourage people to buy off them -- maybe selling "premium gift tokens" so that people can purchase 7-day gametime for their villagers, friends, relatives -- or to tempt old friends to come back to Wurm for a week and see all the changes. Sell silver mirrors to change appearance at will and tin petcollar tags to keep straight their breeding cows/sheep etc. Maybe even allow traders to double as merchants for players to sell their own goods alongside the king's goods, from onboard a wagon or ship. so that you don't have to buy a separate merchant too, but maybe more slots or less decay than on the cheaper merchants and can now travel around, by road or by sea, to reach more customers. Public traders that have a lot of money traffic, would mean more deed upkeep costs are covered as was always intended.  

 

Maybe players who did not like this change, could then sell their traders to any other player on any other server (including Xanadu) if they wanted to get out of the trader system. So you could buy a trader writ off a public trader (for 50s) or buy one off another player (for presumably less than 50s -- but perhaps more than the 20s you want direct from Rolf). 

 

I don't know the best way to get traders back on track, maybe trader owners have some ideas. I would like to see them continue to be a part of gameplay but to serve more of their original purpose. 

 

Get them some sunshine and fresh air .. and get them some real customers. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors

[Eyesgood 2,121]

Why does there have to be any redistribution of any coins at all?  Redistribution only eats away at the free market opportunities of the economy.  What new player will want to make bricks or dig clay when they can just run off and kill rats and deer for income?   Why should players buy coin from the shop when they can mine for it in game via these new methods?  What in the world does Code Club gain by injecting themselves with these new mechanics?

 

Get rid of money distribution altogether.  Every system Rolf employs will eventually become corrupted by the players who are able to figure out how to manipulate it.

[MrGARY 12,421]

Maybe players who did not like this change, could then sell their traders to any other player on any other server (including Xanadu) if they wanted to get out of the trader system. So you could buy a trader writ off a public trader (for 50s) or buy one off another player (for presumably less than 50s -- but perhaps more than the 20s you want direct from Rolf). 

 

Yeah let me just sell the capital deed of MR on Elevation to get out of the trader system...

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

One of the points is that traders no longer be tied to deeds. 

[GoldFever 299]

Why should players buy coin from the shop when they can mine for it in game via these new methods?  What in the world does Code Club gain by injecting themselves with these new mechanics?

 

This is a very valid question and central to the entire discussion.  I'd like to turn the question around and ask it this way.  How many people would have bought the silver from the store they got from redistribution?  My guess is a very very small amount.  Looked at it that way (if correct), redistributions direct costs to Rolf are very small.

 

That leads to the follow-up question of how many people have increased their store purchases due to redistribution?  My guess is a much higher amount here.  Therefore, my guess is that the net effect of redistribution has been to increase store purchases.  However, even if the effect is neutral on his direct revenue, the indirect benefit is that that population and general activity will be higher with redistribution than without it.  It seems obvious that greater activity will lead to more accounts and some of those new accounts will buy from the store.

 

My own personal estimate for my play is that 2/3 of my historical store purchases were tied into redistribution.  Be interesting what others figure for their play.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Perhaps a similar phenomena to what happened with allowing free to play characters on the main servers (they used to be allowed only on a small isolated server off by themselves, where they could never leave and they could never "bother" the paying customers.). When F2P was introduced to the main servers, everyone said "Oh Great. There goes the neighborhood. Now NO one will buy premium since they can play for free, forever. This socialism-welfare-freebie-communist system is gonna kill off Wurm. Rolf is going to go BROKE and close all the servers."

 

Instead, a funny thing happened -- premium (and store silver) purchases shot through the roof once "free" players were allowed on the former premium-only servers.

 

Why was that? People are more likely to spend money on a game as they find themselves having more and more fun with it, and they have more and more friends who play it with them. And -- if those friends CAN play (as more than a slave workforce). People are more likely to pay real cash as they get invested in the game, heart and soul, especially if they see other players running around having FUN. There's an argument "well they can tell everything they need to about Wurm in 7 days of free playtime, after that put the paygate up and force them to contribute so we don't feel like schmucks who are paying their way."  But people don't feel as motivated to put money onto a system when they feel "forced" to contribute. And some people can't contribute much -- for those people the 43c copper they find in two days of foraging is a lot more !FUN! than sitting in some shack chipping bricks for someone else, they can now get a low quality chainmal set and a longsword, and they start to think hey maybe its possible to carve a wood deed stake and plant a low-cost homestead and start building their own place. Eventually they work up to premium. Eventually they work up to bigger deeds, fancier homesteads, maybe even a big ultimate village to get all of their friends to play Wurm too. Most of whom probably start out foraging and killing stuff and hoping they too can get premium and a personal homestead and a suit if chainmail and a sword. And some of those people actually have jobs and start buying silver from the store, Because ###### its a lot easier and now they can spend their ingame time the way they WANT to spend their ingame time. 

 

But why would people ever buy silver if they can simply get ingame coin free? Well, they don't really get it "free". You can probably make about 15-24 coppers an hour chasing after "free" coins. Some make much more, some make much less. (I made lots less than that when I tried) For anyone who actually has some real life income, this is ludicrous because hell they can work ONE HOUR of their job and save the 100 hours it would take them to "earn" a comparable amount of coinage ingame. Plus they now get to do the things they WANT to do, which is not walking around getting eaten by spiders and the whole boring  right-click-forage-oops-picked clean thousands of tiles. Most will chose to buy the silver and get the nicer stuff right away and play the game the way they want to, thankyouverymuch.  Let the ones who can't afford even that, spend the hours wandering through the woods looking for woad, acorns, basil and an occasional 20c rare coin. 

 

It actually IS "good for the game." And actually quite good for the crafters (who already get "rare rolls" to their created items that is probably "worth"  much more than the rare coppers found by hunters/explorers. This just spread out rare rolls to cover people who did not get rare rolls because they were not crafters. The same people who take those coppers and head for their local neighborhood crafter, to spend their new coins.)

 

As you widen the pool for participating -- surprise! -- more people participate.    Quite a few people who eventually bought shop silver and shop time started out as free players who slowly got suckered into putting up real cash  (I know I was one)

 

Money for nothing and the chicks for free.  ooh yea baby. Let the good times roll.  

Edited October 20, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors