New round of PvP Feedback.

[RedBaron_Johan 2,853]

Hello Fighting Wurmians!

 

We are looking for a new round of constructive feedback to further tweak PvP balance.

I know plenty of you have left feedback in the thread created 8th of September when some changes was made.

But much has happened since then and the changes has started to become more properly tested.

So if you have commented there earlier in the light of recent changes, you can edit it to repost here so it follows the new criteria I will mention below.

For it to be usable for us, everyone providing feedback needs to keep to the topic and provide short and effective constructive feedback.

So no simple: “This is bad…†arguments.

Ask yourself instead:

1. Why is this unbalanced and how does it affect PvP balance overall and gameplay?
2. How should it be changed and why does that solve the issue?

In other words this is not a discussion or comment thread, only straight and to the point feedback posts will be accepted.

Also we ask you to keep it as factual and unbiased as possible.

 

I would once more want to remind you to refrain from commenting on each others posts here.

Even if you perceive a post as wrong.

Instead of just commenting, bring up the same topic and think through the steps above.

We will not treat this thread casually and will be able to weigh your arguments accordingly.

Support the suggestions you agree with by liking them.

 

This thread will be moderated so it is accessible for us later, all posts not following guidelines will be removed.

 

And lastly, sorry for being all formal with you about this Wurmians but it needs to be this way for it to be usable.

We are always grateful for the time you take to participate so thank you in advance.

 

Looking forward to see some great feedback!

[BrQQQ 2,854]

- Equipped zombie trolls. When a troll is resurrected, it is possible to give them weapons. The unbalance lies in the very high amount of damage they can do with certain weapons. In many cases, this can be much higher than a player's damage.

- I think either removing the ability to equip or nerfing their capabilities with weapons would be appropriate. I think it becomes 'good enough' when zombie trolls will not deal more damage than players. This keeps zombie trolls dangerous and useful, while not making them more valuable in direct combat than actual players.

- Light of Fo and Scorn of Libila being unreliable. As it is now, Light of Fo fully heals 5 random wounds and Scorn of Libila damages the enemy and heals some wounds a little bit (not 100% sure about the numbers). After using Light of Fo in combat after the recent nerfs, I believe it has become extremely unreliable. The problem lies in that it may heal an ally from 50% to 100%, but it might also heal somebody from 20% to 30%. It picks random wounds, so if it happens to pick the smallest wounds, you're out of luck and your cast have pretty much been wasted (and you cannot cast any more for 2 minutes). In the past, this did not matter, because if you needed it, you could just cast LoF again.

- Change the functionality of the spell so that it heals a certain amount, probably based on the cast power. For example, maybe Light of Fo could heal 10dmg (regardless of your wounds) at lowest power, and maybe 30dmg at the highest power. Scorn of Libila could work off a similar system, possibly a bit less because it also does some damage. This makes the spell much more predictable and useful in PvP, while not returning them to their old OP state. It might be that there will have to be some kind of similar system that already exists for offensive spells, where you increase immunity if a spell has hit you. This means that if you are healed with LoF or Scorn, if the spell is used again in a short period of time, it should maybe heal less.

[SotG_is_OP 357]

Basically, any 30 second timer is useless because the cast cannot be completed without interruption except in cases where the spell would be effectively useless. Therefore, smite cool down and tornado changes are useless. Cool down should be removed from genesis as it is not used in PvP (to kill zombies), only for trait removal on bred animals.

 

The archery and BC changes are terrible and all should be reverted. Archery needs more incentive to grind legitimately (anything to prevent arrow loss - removal of animal moving AI, auto-take passing by arrows, all arrows on corpse regardless of hit/miss/glance, etc.). In addition, alt abuse needs to be illegal in all forms (skill grinding, spying, PvP sabotage, players should play one kingdom only, etc.).

 

The armor changes to archery and spellcasting also should be reverted. They indirectly buff spell spam because spells remain unaffected or less affected, while archery is nearly impossible with anything more than studded, which will never be used in PvP regardless of this change. Also, Mag bonus for chain does not work (bugged). Lighter parts are not possible (mix sets) because the "sturdiest piece" affects your ability.

 

All direct target spells need a cool down of at least one minute. Rotting gut damage buff should be reverted. All spells that ignore armor (Lib spells and tentacles) should be reduced by armor with damage tweaks upward, but nowhere near current level - much lower. Lastly, all PvP spells need a cast timer of at least 7 seconds to allow for interruptions. Anything less cannot be reliably interrupted, and drain health is often used to interrupt other spells and actions because it is only a 2.9 second cast - faster than minimum weapon swing and any spell or PvP action timer.

 

EDIT: Apply BrQQQ's suggested LoF changes to LT.

Edited September 25, 2014 by SotG_is_OP

[Youngsoldier 282]

Be gone with shield of the gone.

1. Why is this unbalanced and how does it affect PvP balance overall and gameplay?
   
2. How should it be changed and why does that solve the issue?
   

 

Shield of the gone is OP. you get to do a very safe action with no risk (meditating) and become an OP permanent champ.

 

It should be changed to something else entirely or nerfed to 10%, meditation should not make you a pvp god... Your pvp skills should, and SOTG is not skill...

 

The only people who will oppose this is the ones who are currently OP...

[Youngsoldier 282]

Horses take too long to breed and become ridable stalling PVP opportunities.

1. Why is this unbalanced and how does it affect PvP balance overall and gameplay?
   
2. How should it be changed and why does that solve the issue?
   

Horses enable PVP on PVP servers. They are so important a lack of them will stall PVP out as people dont roam around on foot often.

The Problem is they take too long for gestation and too long to ride. Horse slaughter is common in fights and it is a big detriment having so long turn around time.

 

Possible solutions:

 

Shorten gestation time on pvp servers and or make all foals ridable when they are born. That way PVP is not stalled out by horses so much and we dont have to wait a week to breed them and then another week to ride them.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Youngsoldier

[Youngsoldier 282]

Horseshoes take too long to imp.

 

1. Why is this unbalanced and how does it affect PvP balance overall and gameplay?
2. How should it be changed and why does that solve the issue?
   

No one wants to spend a whole day making good quality horseshoes and enchant them, a necessity to  much PVP.

Once again a PVP stalling problem that slows down PVP.

 

Solution: Make horseshoes easier to imp so we can get into pvp situations faster and easier. If it doesnt take a day or two to make a set

people will go out more and risk losing the gear for some fun.

[Propheteer 7,139]

Currently, CHAMPIONS(note, not priests.) on enemy homeservers cannot get above a 30 power cast and have 3-4x the difficulty to cast that a normal priest does. If a 10 channeling priest can do more damage, cast more reliably, and get higher power casts when fighting on enemy servers, what is the point of going champion when you can just get SOTG and go priest?

 

 

People should be encouraged to champ, not discouraged, and basically turning into a nonpriest when going onto a homeserver is a huge reason not to champ atm. The easiest solution to this would be to make champions spellcasting on homeservers, function like a priests.

 

 

@SOTGisop - Due to the difficulty change, we were unable to interrupt another players heals despite him being hit several times every time he healed, by arrows, by drain health, by rotting gut etc.

 

The archery and BC changes are terrible and all should be reverted. Archery needs more incentive to grind legitimately (anything to prevent arrow loss - removal of animal moving AI, auto-take passing by arrows, all arrows on corpse regardless of hit/miss/glance, etc.). In addition, alt abuse needs to be illegal in all forms (skill grinding, spying, PvP sabotage, players should play one kingdom only, etc.).

 

The armor changes to archery and spellcasting also should be reverted. They indirectly buff spell spam because spells remain unaffected or less affected, while archery is nearly impossible with anything more than studded, which will never be used in PvP regardless of this change. Also, Mag bonus for chain does not work (bugged). Lighter parts are not possible (mix sets) because the "sturdiest piece" affects your ability.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Propheteer

[Zekezor 3,188]

Lockpicking is unreliable.

 

Lockpicking needs to be looked into.

Currently the timers for lockpicked doors go at twice the speed. iow 10 seconds on the timer is gone after 5 seconds. <--- needs a fix

Currently doors randomly lock themself before the timer is even remotely close to being done. <--- needs a fix asap

 

Nowdays everyone and their mother got 90+ locks (often 95+), which take a considerable time to picklock.

This means that if you go past 2 gates, the doors will start locking behind you before you can go any further and thus trapping you inside... and the target will most likely have moved to another part of the deed by the time you are past these gates, thus making it quite pointless.

With a 20 second timer and 3% chance it will take 11 minutes on average to pass ONE door... and being trapped in a small enclosed area in a hostile deed is one of the worst imaginable situations pvp wise.

 

What I suggest is that door timers below 5 minutes reset to 5 minutes if a hostile kingdom character moves through the unlocked door.

Optionally:

Double/tripple the unlocked time and/or lower the difficulty of lockpicking doors/gates with high ql locks.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Zekezor

[MetalDragon 1,630]

To add onto the following - meditating in general needs a bit of balance on the pvp perspective, the abilities work fine as Freedom I guess, some a bit redundant but these are powerful tools on PvP servers. SoTG has had a big discussion on the suggestion forums as it's a double health bar, the whole system needs a rejig around in order to balance it. People are pushed to certain abilities and makes it a 7 month minimum requirement before you are on the 'level' with other people.

Locks - I agree need looking into - it's easier to make 5 90ql locks than it is to pick 1 90ql lock - I agree picking should be harder only if the locks were harder to make too. I don't think people want to make locks harder to make as it'll be unfair on all the locks already made (makes it difficult for newer towns to set up) I don't know how this can be balanced much.

On top of this - people use BOATS on deed as protective containers as they are MORE SECURE (difficulty to pick) than large chests and have BETTER access permissions that don't require a key for multiple people to use, please consider these permissions on chests when locked too. Boats are harder to pick due to the difficulty in making them - please make it so that the difficulty is only applied when the ships are moored in water. Player moor them on deed so players can't move them (push) like you can wish chests and they're harder to pick into then normal chests.

[madnezz 555]

Request:  If you are going to make changes due only to Epic problems or at the behest of only Epic players please only change the code for Epic.  Chaos is not Epic and should not be adjusted because players on Epic take advantage of a perceived bug ie. the cr penalty for leading animals and the archery nerfs.

[Valdor 1,426]

More Weapon and Armour Viability:

 

1. Currently, the standard for PvP is a steel plate clad character wielding a long sword and a shield. On occasion, the long sword is substituted by a one handed axe or mace, but those can be almost seen as exceptions rather than combat adaptations. This state of affairs makes PvP somewhat predictable. Meanwhile, a great number of armours - or more specifically weapons - go unused. We have 2 handed axes and mauls that almost never see the light of the day in PvP, we have spears that are usually deemed useless and we have halberds that are yet to make it onto the battlefield. Granted, this doesn't unbalance PvP per se, but it affects overall quality of gameplay by simply making a possibly interesting activity more gray. It doesn't promote personal strategy.

 

2. Fixing this issue is no easy matter, I realize that. And I must admit that I don't have a full solution here. Instead, I have noticed that lately the developers have put more emphasis on making diffrent forms of equipment more viable in combat and my post is a plea to continue this development. It is unsettling to some PvPers used to the status quo, but if we introduce more such changes and test them properly, the results should be worth it. More viable PvP builds would include a better use of other armours and weapons, which in turn would make them more viable in combat at the expense of something else. What's important to mention here is that this balancing act must involve not only weapons and armour but an overall combat perspective, like stance, movement and perhaps even special attacks. For instance, recently bows were tweaked to a point where archery suffers penalties in heavier and heavier armours. It was a great step, but by itself it only ensured that archers will now be less effective, as no one will forgo the heaviest armour in PvP as things stand now. The hindrance of being caught in wrong gear far outweighs loss of damage from a bow.

 

As it is, all weapons already have their perks. Axes hit harder, swords swing faster, spears have a bonus against mounted combatants, halberds have a great range, etc. So, the groundwork is already there. Armours, likewise, have their glancing rates and various resistances not always linear, which makes them more interesting. Yet in PvP, the same old image of a plate clad sword and shieldsman prevails as the only viable option. Perhaps deeper customization of armours, weapons, stances and movement can change that and add a lot more colour and stragegy to PvP.

[Rasputin 246]

Yup, time to review shield of the gone. It's far too much of a buff and is unbalanced against other meditating path routes.

[MrGARY 12,421]

Instead of the same old "nerf gone" arguments we should focus on balancing other paths so they have a reason to be chosen.  Repeating my idea on buffing hate, give level 11 hate the ability to ignore weapon enchants as well.  They can do up to 33% damage if used, so combined with ignoring direct attack spells it can be pretty balanced and useful.

[Fireflyb 920]

Fix /who!

 

Have /who on Epic show only the total amount of players on the entire Epic cluster (and make it so that's the only information accessible so people can't use server-crossing log programs to detect the exact moment players cross servers.)

 

Being able to see exactly when people cross to and from servers diminishes the immersion of raiding and really takes away lots of opportunities for fights when you can tell exactly how many are on the server, and how long ago they crossed, if they cross back, etc.

There's been multiple suggestion threads (I actually took a quick look, couldn't find any within last few weeks though) suggesting some fix to this.

 

I'm not exactly sure, but iirc most people were in favor of this.

[Zekezor 3,188]

Due to Old VS New and the powergap inbetween those from meditation, I rather have a nerf on gone and hate. Rather than buffs on other paths.

[KanePT 699]

OK, so here's my honest to god opinion:

PvP in Wurm at this moment has one single saving grace which is the Whole meta-gaming and the Kingdom vs Kingdom Territorial Wars, coupled with the strategic value of fully player-designed fixed defenses (walls, castles and towers).

 

That said the rest is, well to be polite, poor as hell.

 

Even the whole player-designed defenses need to rely on near-exploits to work, since there are no truly military buildings or emplacements, except for the nerfed-to-oblivion Guard towers.

This pretty much leads to MAJOR imbalance number one (and probably the game-killer for everyone that would be willing to play past the poor combat) which is Raids and Raid defenses. I mean you allow not only the defender's items to be take, his buildings to be destroyed, but even his deed upkeep to be robbed. And what does the attacker risk? Whatever mass-produced gear and horses they choose to take with themselves to the attack. Not only that but the defender has very little advantage in combat, there's no real anti-siege weapons (which would be so easy to create).

 

1)Why is this unbalanced and how does it affect PvP balance overall and gameplay?

Well, there's pretty much no risk and a huge reward for the attacking side on a Village raid. That's pretty much the definition of imbalanced.

There's no Defensive structures with actual worth as such (do notice people will more often use houses than actual Walls for defense), meaning that the "defender's advantage" is slim to none. Finally there's no tools implemented to ensure that a successful Raid is the outcome of a PvP win. I mean it goes to such ridiculous extents as people actually suggesting the removal of what little tools there are that allow people to be notified of being attacked. If you can steal everything a guy owns AND drain their deed, with only killing a couple of NPC guards. That's not PvP. And trust me that's one of the main if not the biggest deterrent for many people joining PvP.

 

2 - How should it be changed and why does that solve the issue?

a) Either get rid of Drain or make it so that people can only drain if they kill at least x people on that deed in the last x hours.

If you keep drain add a mechanic that people must declare a siege and pay a fee for that (should be equal to the max amount able to drain from the deed they're sieging) if the siege is defeated and the defenders can rout the siege camp, they can drain the money there. This would also solve the question of people being unable to defend, because having someone declare a siege means you should get some notification, and thus be able to defend, or call for reinforcements.

 

b )  Add stuff like Boiling oil or murder-holes to the game:

Boiling oil could be a stationary item crated from a cauldron, some stone bricks, clay and some iron bars and ribbons. It would have to be filled with tar or olive oil, then lit up. Then right click> Pour Does x burn damage on x tiles in an arc centered on the burning oil cauldron.

Murder-holes would require the building of Machicolations (protrusions from the wall with holes on the floor) since we don't have proper gatehouses or strong-gates.

Basically this would be a parapet that would extend 1 or half a tile away from the wall and have a hole on the ground through which people could shoot through. Also one could add a rigging made of planks and rope that could be loaded with stone shards that would be then dropped from the hole to damage the enemy below.

 

c) Balistas wouldn't hurt, also maybe creating "iron shots" that could be fired from a catapult to damage players in an area?

 

b and c) would make it easier to defend against larger numbers thus adding a bit of risk on the attackers end.

 

Balance Weapons and armor.

 

1- Why is this unbalanced and how does it affect PvP balance overall and gameplay?

Name is kinda self-explanatory at the moment so far as i can see from other people's coments and PvP videos everyone fights like it was the clone wars. There's no fun or reason to fight with other tools except the "best" build that everyone else does. The attempt change at archery with the heavy armor getting in the way is a good first step but poorly implemented.

 

2- How should it be changed and why does that solve the issue?

Its a hard call, really, its not something you can go about with just one try, you'll need to be ready to take a commitment to this and work on it for a while, through iteration.

But stuff like synergies between some weapons and armor, special attacks that are dependent on what weapon/armor combo you have. And a rock- paper- scissors approach to armors would be a start.

You'd need stuff like, for example dual short swords and studded leather armor would have a special attack that would allow them to target weak spots on plate armor allowing them to seriously cripple or at high FS pretty much insta-kill someone in plate. On the flip-side you'd be pretty specialized and have little sustained damage, and be dependent on crits and special attacks. While someone on chain and longsword, would have more dependable, consistent damage, and a good defense, although not as good crit as someone with short-swords and studded.

One way to achieve this would be to give "stats" to armor and weapons. Which combined with special attacks would give viable, varied builds.

 

Revamp whole combat

 

Sorry, i won't elongate on this one, its pretty self-explanatory. We have a MUD-style (graphic mud if you want to be picky) combat. Muds were all the rage like 20+ years ago.

 

Finally, THINK BEFORE YOU RELEASE!!!

 

This is a serious one. I personally don't play PVP because at this moment its utterly bad. But sometimes it seems i do, because my game-play is constantly being nerfed or otherwise negatively impacted because of PvP.

So here's the thing, when you think of balance, think how you're balancing it also to not be too negative of a impact on PVE. Because, guess what? 70% of your players are on the PVE side of things, and trust me, even if you change the way PvP works, looking at the numbers in other split-sever games, PvE is usually 60-80% of the player base.

So think a lot before you go live with something. Think if YOU REALLY NEED IT. Or if its just some private nag of a few players which get their kingdom to tag along. I'm referring to stuff like the tower guard nerf and slow down. I've seen a ton of PvP players complain about it. ALL PVE players complain about it. So basically you made a change that probably made 20% (if not substantially less) of your player base happy, while aggravating the remaining 80%.

Edited September 25, 2014 by KanePT

[Lulu 601]

In regards to the shield of the gone issue/discussion. Instead of nerfing the hell out of it or buffing the other paths, would it not be better to change it to..

 

Right click > Use shield of the gone

 

'You search deep into your soul and find the strength of an extra shield.'  (or some bollocks like that)

It will have a 12 hour? Cooldown period before you can use it again.

It will last 5 minutes

 

This will not negate the time it has taken players to get there, nor will it nerf the effect itself but it will change it from a constant effect and become a 'skill' as to when you would decide to use it in battle/pvp.

[Radni 1,089]

SACCING ITEMS!

Libila gets Garlic, and there's been threads on this before, Libila priests get CRAZY amounts of favor for little to no work. Yes they can't farm but if you're a priest you're not living solo or without an alt to farm for you.

Look at what lib has to do compared to VYNORA or mag, or even Fo, square pieces of cloth are not reliable in QL at all!

Either make libilas double favor item harder to obtain/make or make it so it's easier for the WL gods to get their double favor item. Seeing as ATM Libila priests can pump out favor into gems for pvp, or cast enchants and not even be phased by getting sac items.

[Cornchips 3,037]

All the changes have been great, listening and communicating really goes a far way for a game and it's starting to turn out for the better.

 

Really, a lot of the big issues are now dealt with, one of the last few I cant think of is zombie trolls equipped with weapons:

 

It's really hard to put this into words trying to describe it, where as within 10 seconds of experiencing a fight or something with one, you get it instantly.

Pretty much they hit the hardest out of anything, and hit harder than players. In my opinion, the option to equip them should just be taken out, they've got a troll club which is an actual weapon they can use without it being overpowered, no other mob or anything tamable/dominatable/ressurectable has a weapon.

 

A lot of people usually point out "Well, why don't you just shoot it/avoid it?"

 

That's really really reallllly hard to do when it's just coming at you, I don't think I've ever even been in an event where a troll was shot down before it got into melee range, especially when the tradeoff to shooting it, is turning back and shooting someones horse.

 

Thanks for giving us the option for feedback, hope it turns out great.

[Youngsoldier 282]

Even with some cooldown sotg is OP.

 

Take for example when people have 100 body skills, people with sotg will still have 50% more damage reduction than non-sotg 100 body skill people... OP is OP...

 

It takes 7 months to become a permanent champ, does that seem fair in the spirit of wurm? Be honest with yourself...

[MrGARY 12,421]

Another great idea is there should be a timer on /suicide with enemy in local.  Could be as long as the 5 minute log out timer

 

Being able to do that to avoid pvp is not good for promoting pvp

[Zekezor 3,188]

3 min cd on teleports after crossing a server border.

 

To prevent people from teleporting away from persuers the moment they cross a server border. (and thereby bypassing the "cant teleport while hostiles are in local" feature that was implemented)

Edited September 25, 2014 by Zekezor

[Namekat 1,753]

Cool down on crossing servers more than once after having an enemy in local. You should always have the option of trying to get away but bouncing back and forth between servers in a fight is just abusing the delays on crossing.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Namekat

[Hogwash 177]

1. i think mag priests have too many passive combat buffs and are imbalanced as they are used unfairly in pvp with little or usually no aid from followers.

2. They need to be toned down and/or other kingdoms given passive combat abilities.  make mag fulfil their intended support class to bring balance to pvp and not overextend their intended roles. currently a small groups of priests power eclipse the power of a champion in order to make people not want to champ, circumventing the champion penalty by priest zerg/primary fighters; this change would bring balance to all kingdoms.

 

thank you for the chance to hear our voices.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Hogwash

[Rasputin 246]

+1 to removing the /who thing on epic. Perhaps it should just give the number of players on the entire cluster rather than each map. I doubt it was ever intended to be used as a method of tracking raid parties.