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4neofclubs

Trader Factors

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Of course, we're yet to see any detail (or really anything) on the 'other means of recirculating money' alluded to by Rolf et al.  They may turn out to be even worse than traders (mail fix, anyone?)...


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If Rolf is changing traders on the other servers, I would simply like the ability to get a reimbursement of my trader without having to disband the deed. I make some money from sales of items, I have a single trader that basically gave 3-7s a month that I then spent on either bulk materials (help the new guy out) or enchanted tools etc, without that money I simply won't buy anything because I don't want to heavily invest in Wurm spending 20e a month for prem and to buy some simple tools...


 


 


(My trader earned about 0.1s this past month)


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You cannot imagine how much joy it gives me to see threads like this, you really can't

 

But the fact that removing traders makes the game alot more expensive to play doesn't bother you?  It will make it more expensive for everyone, not just for those who have gotten used to traders. 

 

I too am not that sad to see them go, but some kind of compensation is needed, I'm not talking about refunds, I mean morelongterm for everyone.

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Glad I don't participate is the market at all, even though I do like to see it "healthy"...

Overall I guess I'm glad they'd take traders down a notch, mostly to stop people selling gold so much under store price, but for everything else it means... Ouch

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I really fail to see how people that were having multiple chars, multiple deeds (some quite big), but were not paying a single RL$ for them, affording all these just from trader income, were benefiting the game in anyway (the only ones benefiting from that, being just themselves).


 


I'm not an hypocrite to say that I never took advantage of it - since everyone else was using it, I also got one trader on my own deed, and she was paying for my deed upkeep every month, practically allowing me to have a free deed. And yeah, while I admit I did enjoyed it, it never felt right.


 


So yeah, I think that lowering the traders income to a point where the will no longer be attractive or afford to pay for all game expenses of a person, would be the right thing to do - ideally would like to see traders make less than 1s/month, so there will be no more sense in "trader deed" just clogging the land. ;)


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I really fail to see how people that were having multiple chars, multiple deeds (some quite big), but were not paying a single RL$ for them, affording all these just from trader income, were benefiting the game in anyway (the only ones benefiting from that, being just themselves).

 

I'm not an hypocrite to say that I never took advantage of it - since everyone else was using it, I also got one trader on my own deed, and she was paying for my deed upkeep every month, practically allowing me to have a free deed. And yeah, while I admit I did enjoyed it, it never felt right.

 

So yeah, I think that lowering the traders income to a point where the will no longer be attractive or afford to pay for all game expenses of a person, would be the right thing to do - ideally would like to see traders make less than 1s/month, so there will be no more sense in "trader deed" just clogging the land. ;)

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Speculation


 


My thought is distance between traders. If you have several traders within the minimum distance allowed from each other they share a %  of the take each month reducing how much a single trader could potentially make. A trader all alone in a key section of a server may make maximum vs 3 trader clustered which may only make 2-3 silver a month. It's a theory but kind of a sound one given how many people traders have been reduced in income per month. I was always told the more traders on a server the less the king has to distribute. An influx of traders could explain some shortages. But again wouldn't that depend on who actively working them? This new feature selling to the token what ever for a max of 5 copper an hour. If it's all tied together it could surely effect the out put of traders as well. I think we are seeing the fall of the traders.


Edited by Yamuliss

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I really fail to see how people that were having multiple chars, multiple deeds (some quite big), but were not paying a single RL$ for them, affording all these just from trader income, were benefiting the game in anyway (the only ones benefiting from that, being just themselves).

 

I'm not an hypocrite to say that I never took advantage of it - since everyone else was using it, I also got one trader on my own deed, and she was paying for my deed upkeep every month, practically allowing me to have a free deed. And yeah, while I admit I did enjoyed it, it never felt right.

 

So yeah, I think that lowering the traders income to a point where the will no longer be attractive or afford to pay for all game expenses of a person, would be the right thing to do - ideally would like to see traders make less than 1s/month, so there will be no more sense in "trader deed" just clogging the land. ;)

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Yep, I had two to help pay for my deed. I like space - lots of space. Even though people think I only "need" a 15x15 deed, I'm unhappy if it's under 80x80, I need room for every profession, workstations, a forest, and a area to build up a pretty looking spot. Not to mention farming (with the stupid nerfs requires a lot of room)

Traders helped all that, now I don't own traders and it comes straight out of the pocket...,ontop of that I'm paying for four characters, which isn't going to continue much longer luckily, but it's kind of stupid how pricey it gets, traders did help in that situtation.

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Trader deeds are a fun aspect of the game for me and who are you to besmirch my game play?  If it weren't for trader deeds I probably would have stopped playing wurm a long time ago.  Instead I have a few trader deeds that have allowed me to make friends on several servers.  I spend quite a bit of silver on things I want and have a great time traveling the lands.  Just because you dislike an aspect of a game doesn't mean it needs to be altered or deleted because it doesn't feel right to you.  Do us all a favor and mind your own business, madam.

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The money made from traders stimulates the economy in wurm because it allows players to buy things they normally wouldn't.  Whether it be larger deeds, items from the traders, items from other players, and/or premium by way of silver or selling silver and buying premium from the store.  


 


I am pretty sure Rolf ends up with all of the money made by traders in the end and if it retains a few players its a worthy investment.  Take a look at Xanadu, some of the money made from traders on other servers was sunk into the bajillion deeds created on Xanadu.


Edited by taskmaster

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The money made from traders stimulates the economy in wurm because it allows players to buy things they normally wouldn't.  Whether it be larger deeds, items from the traders, items from other players, and/or premium by way of silver or selling silver and buying premium from the store.  

Edited by Lovefall

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RE-After all, Rolf can't pay servers and staff with recirculated coins, but only with RL$. ;)


 


Some people are not gonna like me suggesting this but it's how i feel. Rolf should do away with traders producing coins but instead they should credit so many days of upkeep to a deed based exactly on how its setup now with working them.  That would change things greatly. Some will say well you can just simply disband the deed get it back out. Yes over a period of time if you built it up i suppose you could. But by changing the out put traders give to simply just in game deed upkeep (credits) will in fact make the trader useful again. I know currently you can set the ratio to sort of do that but im suggesting no choice, you buy a trader this what it does and that's it. That way they could be placed on Xanadu. You still have to work it in order to get the max upkeep bonus per month. He should also add more stuff that sold strictly by the trader and limited to how much in stock. Then those people who have 15-20 traders won't feel entirely like they got one put over on them. There won't be piles of worthless deeds around because people will want to disband to get the upkeep sooner or later. People will see real value in the trader again and those earning silver and gold from mining the traders will have to find another way or let deeds build up upkeep over a period of time to cash out!


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I'm still unsure of why people don't like traders, means more money for all in the end.

Reason the freedom market is so good is because there is or were lots of silver being made of traders, an more people spending it on the market.

I hope traders aren't nerfed under 5-7s a month without the 50s being returned

No one likes a game with a poor economy. If people know hey I can sell XYZ like I've always dreamed of and make premium for the month! Or use it to buy a deed! Or spend it on some new armor! They're more likely to stay and play, aaannndd bring friends ;) if it's fun for the players, then more players will come and Rolf will make all da moneh for dem honiez.

Edited by Radni
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If it weren't for trader deeds I probably would have stopped playing wurm a long time ago.  

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The don't like traders because they think Rolf is destitute for some reason and they must attack every trader thread made to save him from himself.  This discussion was not meant to be about traders yes or no, its about trader factors.  Can we get a mod in here to clean this up?


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People can't post trader threads in Town Square and expect to not draw comments from the many players that think it is an exploit. And you can not actually expect mods to remove one side of an argument just because you happen to be on the other side. There are a lot of players out there that think trader draining is tantamount to trickle down economics and is a greater detriment to the game economy than any extra liquidity it creates in the markets.


 


I say put a counter on each existing trader and when it has given out 50s it stops receiving funds; and either be done with recircuation entirely or find a way that translates in-game effort into coin instead of out-of-game wealth. People that want to buy in-game wealth with their out-of-game wealth can just buy coins from Rolf or players.


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If you want to talk about something other than trader factors then make your own thread.  Traders are not an exploit.


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People can't post trader threads in Town Square and expect to not draw comments from the many players that think it is an exploit. And you can not actually expect mods to remove one side of an argument just because you happen to be on the other side. There are a lot of players out there that think trader draining is tantamount to trickle down economics and is a greater detriment to the game economy than any extra liquidity it creates in the markets.

 

I say put a counter on each existing trader and when it has given out 50s it stops receiving funds; and either be done with recircuation entirely or find a way that translates in-game effort into coin instead of out-of-game wealth. People that want to buy in-game wealth with their out-of-game wealth can just buy coins from Rolf or players.

You know that's a good idea that way players really are not out anything and traders have no other purpose then to sell stuff that's in them.

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I have used traders for a while and still own one.  That said, I am fine with them going away.  I think they became abused way beyond any expectations.


 


What I am not fine with is if they are being changed surreptitiously behind closed doors.  It was announced openly that Xanadu would be a different system.  However, unless I missed it, there has never been an announcement that traders on other servers would be changed.


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People can't post trader threads in Town Square and expect to not draw comments from the many players that think it is an exploit. And you can not actually expect mods to remove one side of an argument just because you happen to be on the other side. There are a lot of players out there that think trader draining is tantamount to trickle down economics and is a greater detriment to the game economy than any extra liquidity it creates in the markets.

 

I say put a counter on each existing trader and when it has given out 50s it stops receiving funds; and either be done with recircuation entirely or find a way that translates in-game effort into coin instead of out-of-game wealth. People that want to buy in-game wealth with their out-of-game wealth can just buy coins from Rolf or players.

You do understand that this post reads as envious, right?

Also you do know it spossible to translate in-game effort into silver, and that silver into traders, right? Worked fine for me. Maybe you're just doing it wrong.

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Ad hominem.

When you post saying that traders are all about who has more real money, and talk about it like its an impossibility for the random joe to get one. It reads as envious, because  not only its false, but because of the way you wrote it. So no, its not Ad hominem, its exactly how it reads.

Most anti-trader augments are based on speculation and false premises. Most people assume that Rolf doesn't know how they work, but you'll see in various statements that he is aware. Most people assume he loses money, well any of you his accountant? After someone paid for silver the money is in his pockets, if someone uses traders or commerce to gain silver, most often than not he won't be buying silver from the shop at all, even without traders. Also people with a trader are less likely to quit, because they have that fall-back plan, so it helps with player retention.

 

Is it exploitable? Yes very much so. Is it an unfair advantage, unbalanced? Only for Xanadu, and that's by community request, so can't fault the devs on that. Traders are probably the thing that equates this game to a F2P the most, it allows for players to translate their work into a long-term income, so that they can focus on skills instead of focusing on making money to have premium. That means more players, which is what runs the economy.

 

I'd like to hear your take on how they can hurt the economy? By having more people playing and with funds to trade? Because they're accessible to anyone that wants one (well with the limitations due to their radius thingy).

 

The only hole here is also something that Rolf is proud of, and that doesn't concern only Traders. Which is the ability for people to buy Silver from other players. That's the only really negative side to this, because that money won't make it to Rolf's pockets.

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Kane, the problem with traders is this:


 


- if there would be no traders, all money in game would come from shop only - so if people would spend 160,000 euros in shop, there will be 100,000 silver coins in game, giving Rolf 1.6 euro / silver revenue. Once these coins spent on any money sink (deed setting, deed upkeep, consumables, etc), people would need to buy more


 


- if there are traders, money recirculation - if people spend same 160,000 euros in shop, there will be more than 100,000 silver coins in game (since some coins return and are used the second time), giving Rolf less than 1.6 euro / silver revenue. And since (at least some of) these coins would be recirculated, it would take much more 'till all 100,000 would leave the system, and people would need to buy more. Let's presume (since noone knows the number) that 50% of coins are recirculated - that means that instead of having 100,000 coins to be spent before people have to "refill", there will be 150,000 coins to be spent, for the same 160,000 euros.


Edited by Lovefall

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I seriously don't think anything was changed with the mechanics, but just that so many deeds were disbanded on all servers besides Xanadu. Less deeds to pay upkeep, means less money in the King's Coffers to recirculate. For once I don't think Rolf has secretly made some kind of nerf. This was an obvious result, when most people packed up and headed to Xanadu. While many "normal" deeds have disbanded, the trader-deeds are kept as long as they give more than 1s, as it is no trouble to drain and reset the ratio once a month, so there aren't less traders to split the reduced money from the King.


 


I could list all the possible info I could think of, to see if anything has changed, but I just can't be bothered, when one trader gave 2s last month, and 5s this month, while another gave 2s last month and less than 1s this month. There have been no changes to the 2 deeds in that time, as I have been busy on Xanadu instead.


 


I sort of understand (but don't have to agree with) the people who are against traders. Often they seem to think that the traders were free, and trader-owners are just getting free money to pay their upkeep and premium with, while others have to pay with RL cash. And that they aren't good for Rolf. But people seem to forget that first of all, these traders weren't free. And they stimulate the economy in more ways than we can think of. Even if someone bought the contract with silver earned in game, every silver has at one point been bought from Rolf, and it means they have provided a service (good for the market) in order to get that money. Many of the ones with trader-empires are also the big spenders in the game - the more silver they have "easy" access to, the more they are willing to spend for items and services, that they don't have the skillset for or just can't be bothered with (also good for the market). I find it a bit funny, that these people don't have a  bigger problem with the way it works on Xanadu. Noone had to spend any silver at all to place a trader there, and as most of Wurm's upkeep is now being payed on Xanadu, the King's Coffers on Xanadu are enormous compared to the other servers. And here, the money is not just split between the few public traders - no it is split between the few public traders that have a correct ratio, when the money is being split. So all you have to do now, is have a free toon standing a public trader on Xanadu when an envoy from the King comes by (and you can probably set WA to alert you when that happens), and you can drain that trader of an insane amount of silvers. It is like winning the lottery, and you don't even have to buy a ticket first!


 


What I would do to make it harder to have a gazillion trader deeds, is make it harder (in Wurm terms, that would be: more time consuming) to have that many. Make the ratio reset daily, instead of once a month. You then either have to travel wide and far, or log in a gazillion characters daily - and in both cases you won't be able to reset all of your traders fast enough for all of them in time for the envoy to start making his rounds. Make trader-farming as annoying as the crops-farming has become :)


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