Cooldown discussion

[KaiH 1,126]

... if there's enough of them.  ...

It is not that i do not agree with you, but this sounded so wrong that i have to say it:

if there is enough low level players they can take down a full geared vet too. (if it is only about amount, then that has to change)

[blayze 314]

It is not that i do not agree with you, but this sounded so wrong that i have to say it:if there is enough low level players they can take down a full geared vet too. (if it is only about amount, then that has to change)

He is probably referring to wurm brains that can do 20+ damage a hit though 80ql plate. You would only need 5 priests casting to kill a person in a single spell rotation.

This happens a lot on epic with boat fights. A sail boat of 5 bl priests can kill a knarr of people chasing them with single target spells alone.

[Arkhir 280]

It is not that i do not agree with you, but this sounded so wrong that i have to say it:

if there is enough low level players they can take down a full geared vet too. (if it is only about amount, then that has to change)

But you can counter low level players, you can't counter armour piercing incendiary white phosphorus jacketed hollow point depleted uranium spells.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Arkhir

[KaiH 1,126]

makes sense. I'll do a "what if.."

 

what if a cooldown is not bound by player, but rather bound to local?

meaning: no same spell can be cast for 3min in local range

 

not that this would be easy to implement, but 30min cooldowns on any spell does seem very wrong to me (and would affect pve more than pvp).

[Zekezor 3,188]

He is probably referring to wurm brains that can do 20+ damage a hit though 80ql plate. You would only need 5 priests casting to kill a person in a single spell rotation.

This happens a lot on epic with boat fights. A sail boat of 5 bl priests can kill a knarr of people chasing them with single target spells alone.

The knarrs die due to lack of maneuverability and since archery is . (hint: sailboats go faster than knarrs while going against the strongest wind types)

[Zekezor 3,188]

makes sense. I'll do a "what if.."

 

what if a cooldown is not bound by player, but rather bound to local?

meaning: no same spell can be cast for 3min in local range

 

not that this would be easy to implement, but 30min cooldowns on any spell does seem very wrong to me (and would affect pve more than pvp).

 

Based on that logic, should archery be limited in local too? if too many arrows are shot everyone has their archery ability removed?

 

Should melee weapons turn off if too many people have hit someone in local?

 

no?

 

Then why spells?

 

If you got 10 priests, then those 10 priests obviously want to use their spells if there is a situation where they are usefull.

 

If you got 10 people with SOTG, then those 10 people obviously want to use their SOTG.

 

Limiting abilities becouse too many people have them available is absurd.

[LorenaBanana 49]

He is probably referring to wurm brains that can do 20+ damage a hit though 80ql plate. 

Wow does it do so much?

[Kadore 926]

 I think a some point the game ( Rolf and/or the dev ) should put real values to spells, the damage they do, armor values by type, weapon values by type etc, the ###### that is everything is gleaned from the wiki by player testing makes it hard to see what is truth and what is speculation.

 

 Most games do internal testing using knowing the true values and make cool downs, adjust spell strength and all the variables using real data.

 

 Making a post asking " lets discuss cool downs " makes me wonder if Rolf just plans to take his top 5 favorite posts and adjust off of that. 

[Kagrenac 812]

Wow does it do so much?

Not in any actual pvp setting.(and generally not even when casting from a couple feet away, that's a 100+pow cast)

Would say it generally does 5-10 in boatfights.

[Dame 144]

Dear Rolf,

 

Please don't forcefully fornicate over pve play in favor of small pvp tweaks.

We, on the cowardly side of the divide, love your game as much as you do.

And we will be very sad pandas (yes, I used the word panda deliberately, since it so much resembles the word carebear, yes yes, oh my, what a feeble bunch we are) when some small alterations that might make pvp play more "balanced" will annoy the frigging multicoloured crap outta our everyday lives. Especially since for some unfathomable reason, we, the weaklings, are in the majority. (Oh my, imagine a world full of carebears, where would it end, all that love and peace.)

But I digress.

I know you are a fair and just deity, and will fully trust your judgement

 

Thank you.

 

With warm regards.

And love.

Dame.

[MrGARY 12,421]

What

[blayze 314]

Not in any actual pvp setting.(and generally not even when casting from a couple feet away, that's a 100+pow cast)

Would say it generally does 5-10 in boatfights.

Edited September 2, 2014 by blayze

[Monokles 352]

Not in any actual pvp setting.(and generally not even when casting from a couple feet away, that's a 100+pow cast)

Would say it generally does 5-10 in boatfights.

[Tuanta 484]

I'm PVP ignorant but wouldn't adding interrupts resolve this?

 

Example: Priest begins to cast a spell, opposing faction attacker scores a "critical hit" aka high damage whatever..., priest rolls a counter (guessing based on channeling skill) fail = cast is interrupted... pass = casting continues...

 

Sorry if this is insane or perhaps already been suggested. (I didn't read through the 10 pages)

[Kagrenac 812]

Yes it does that much and I posted the results over many different casts. Different kingdom priests with similar stats.

BTW I was unable it hit below 10 damage with worm brains. Average was 15 damage a cast and this was all through 80ql plate. On the other hand wl spells do 2 damage a cast...

You can try to discredit it all you want but it is real ingame values.

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/106090-libila-spells/?hl=+ignore%20+armor

Mono's graph shows that 20+ damage is a 94?+ cast.

You will not get that casting at another boat.

Distance rapidly increases the difficulty of spells.

 

And the WL spells do not "do 2 damage", they do similar damage to rotting gut, which is bl's fireheart/shard of ice. Internal damage simply ignores armor, the spells are pretty close other than that (wl ones cost more but cast faster)

 

 

I'm PVP ignorant but wouldn't adding interrupts resolve this?

 

Example: Priest begins to cast a spell, opposing faction attacker scores a "critical hit" aka high damage whatever..., priest rolls a counter (guessing based on channeling skill) fail = cast is interrupted... pass = casting continues...

 

Sorry if this is insane or perhaps already been suggested. (I didn't read through the 10 pages)

Already does exist, with just any damage generally interrupting it.

[Tuanta 484]

Ah, thanks Kagrenac

[mthoodyn 56]

Magranons frantic charge needs a hughe buff. Make it like last for like 5 minutes and add speed of 8 km/h.

Timer on pvp related spells, 30 min or longer.

Archery for all priests.

All priests can finish items but not imp them. Would make Life more fun for priests but still limit them alot so no big change with this.

Both MR and JK can champ as FO, Magranon and Vynora.

Add 2-3km/h to Walking speed

Add 5-8km/h to horse speeds

Add 8-9km/h to boat speeds

Make SOTG 25% damage timed ability, lasts for 30 min once a day. OR Make it 15% permanent.

[Sklo:D 2,210]

After carefully reading all comments more than once, I came up with an possible solution.

I ask you to read through the whole post before you judge. And to be totally honest this is the fairest solution you could come up with, everybody has equal pvp spells that look differnt and produce different wounds but behave the same. 

 

Give equal simular spells and make them do the same amount of damage damage.

for example:

 

Single person damage spell

• Fire Hearth: with 30 Bodystats on caster and victim it does 5damage fire wound on the cest with a [50] cast.
  
• Ice Shard: with 30 Bodystats on caster and victim it does 5damage ice wound on the cest with a [50] cast.
  
• Rotten Gut: with 30 Bodystats on caster and victim it does 5damage rotten wound on the cest with a [50] cast.
  
• Worm brains: remove or create Mag/Vyn Counterpart that does head wounds(more damage), but with higher damage output.
  

 

each requires 35 Faith to cast, uses up 15 favor, dificullty is 30 and the cast timer should be arond 8secs.(ten is to long 4 too short), 15secs cooldown, wounds do not stack!

In order to reduce spell spamming each following cast on a person of the same spell within 10 minutes of the last will reduce the damage done by 20%. (*0.8 , 0.6, 0.4, 0.2 .0.0)

 

AOE heal

Light of Fo and Scorn of Lib need both their damage and healing turned down. It should be changed to an amount of health being healed not number of wounds.

• LOF does a 25% heal on a [75] cast on any creature/player that is not an enemy withing a 5 tiles range.
  
• SOL does a 10% damage wound on enemys and heals any creature/player by 15% on a [75] cast withing a 5 tiles range.
  

 

each requires 60 Faith to cast, uses up 50 favor, dificullty is 40 and the cast timer should be around 15secs, a local cooldown of 3 minutes. Some fights take longer than 20 minutes which allows to heal several times, but it can't be spammed due to its cooldown and magnificant reduced amout of healing power.

 

 

AOE damage spells spells

• Fungus Trap does 10% damage wounds with a [50] cast while standing on it for the full duration of 15secs.
  
• Fire Pillar does 10% damage wounds with a [50] cast while standing on it for the full duration of 15secs.
  
• Ice Pillar does 10% damage wounds with a [50] cast while standing on it for the full duration of 15secs.
  
• Tentacles remove
  
• Pain rain remove
  

 

each requires 35 Faith to cast, uses up 30favor, dificullty is 20and the cast timer should be around 10 secs, cooldown of 1 minute. Slows players/creatures standing on them by 15%. Allows good old pillar warfare to be more fair and effective. A portion of the total damage should be dealth every few seconds(2-3). Linking of characters does not have an effect on the pillar size.

 

Additinal Tweaks:

• All priests allow to do everything, woodcut, mine, steal, archer, cata, .........,
  
• Priest are not allowed to Improve or continue and iteam.(this covers about 80% of the whole playtime, a big enough drawback)
  
• All Spells that do not have a BL/WL counterpart need to be removed or nerfed to the ground.
  
• Poison wounds need to be switched with rotten
  

 

Additinal Info:

• Damage scals liniar. if [50] does 5 damage a [100] cast does 10damage
  
• Tentacles fits the theme of a water priest but, doesn't really balance it.
  
• Pain rain can not be justifed either after the removal of Tentacles and it can't be countered and does instant damage
  
• giving Lib spells rotten damage would not give them a much bigger advantage, since wounds should not stack anyways.
  
• Allow all WL kingoms to be every type of champ.
  
• Remove the ability for zomby trolls to wield weapons other than a huge club(test:they do 3x the damage with a huge axe)
  

 

What does this do?

It allows every faction of the game to have an equal situation in equal fights.(same fighter and same priest anount)

Edited September 3, 2014 by Sklo:D

[mthoodyn 56]

I like your post Sklo, but with one additional tweak about the priests. Let priests be able to start , continue and finish items but not improve them

[Sklo:D 2,210]

does this inlcude continue walls too?

[mthoodyn 56]

does this inlcude continue walls too?

I would say why not. As long as priests cant improve items i see no harm in them being able to finish items.

A priest is a living person to in the wurm-world. We cant discriminate them imo. Let them be able to finish walls aswell so they can have some shelter.

[Sklo:D 2,210]

that would allow you to hold deeds just with priest alts

[permo 1,263]

#SkloForKing2014

[mthoodyn 56]

that would allow you to hold deeds just with priest alts

is that a good or bad? else we could prevent it by adding code that doesnt allow priests to hold deed writs.

[Monokles 352]

And to be totally honest this is the fairest solution you could come up with, everybody has equal pvp spells that look differnt and produce different wounds but behave the same.

What.. lol

 

Give equal simular spells and make them do the same amount of damage damage.

for example:

Single person damage spell

• Fire Hearth: with 30 Bodystats on caster and victim it does 5damage fire wound on the cest with a [50] cast.
• Ice Shard: with 30 Bodystats on caster and victim it does 5damage ice wound on the cest with a [50] cast.
• Rotten Gut: with 30 Bodystats on caster and victim it does 5damage rotten wound on the cest with a [50] cast.
• Worm brains: remove or create Mag/Vyn Counterpart that does head wounds(more damage), but with higher damage output.

each requires 35 Faith to cast, uses up 15 favor, dificullty is 30 and the cast timer should be arond 8secs.(ten is to long 4 too short), 15secs cooldown, wounds do not stack!

In order to reduce spell spamming each following cast on a person of the same spell within 10 minutes of the last will reduce the damage done by 20%. (*0.8 , 0.6, 0.4, 0.2 .0.0)

This would make for very boring gameplay that is favored towards WL deities ( e.g. you only need to have resistance against disease vs lib spells, while you need 3 different types of resistance vs WL spells). Not stacking is a bad idea too since it would allow you to heal all wounds on a slightly slow moving boat(5 sec aid timer). On top of that, "balancing" the spells so everything is exactly the same for both sides would make Mag the ultimate pvp since there's his passive as well. Lib should be slightly more powerful than other gods to counter the 1v3 situation, that's completely gone here too.

 

AOE heal

Light of Fo and Scorn of Lib need both their damage and healing turned down. It should be changed to an amount of health being healed not number of wounds.

• LOF does a 25% heal on a [75] cast on any creature/player that is not an enemy withing a 5 tiles range.
• SOL does a 10% damage wound on enemys and heals any creature/player by 15% on a [75] cast withing a 5 tiles range.

each requires 60 Faith to cast, uses up 50 favor, dificullty is 40 and the cast timer should be around 15secs, a local cooldown of 3 minutes. Some fights take longer than 20 minutes which allows to heal several times, but it can't be spammed due to its cooldown and magnificant reduced amout of healing power.

I agree with this however a 3 min local cooldown is too much. The only fights I've seen that lasted more than 20 minutes since the minehop change were boat fights, these spells are not useful there. The odds of being in a 20 minute landfight are so small that I don't think you should design spells towards that. You'd be out of stam within a minute or 2 anyway. I'd say 2 minutes non local cooldown. Also LOF needs to be categorized as a combat spell badly, you WL people have no idea how annoying overheating is.

AOE damage spells spells

• Fungus Trap does 10% damage wounds with a [50] cast while standing on it for the full duration of 15secs.
• Fire Pillar does 10% damage wounds with a [50] cast while standing on it for the full duration of 15secs.
• Ice Pillar does 10% damage wounds with a [50] cast while standing on it for the full duration of 15secs.
• Tentacles remove
• Pain rain remove

each requires 35 Faith to cast, uses up 30favor, dificullty is 20and the cast timer should be around 10 secs, cooldown of 1 minute. Slows players/creatures standing on them by 15%. Allows good old pillar warfare to be more fair and effective. A portion of the total damage should be dealth every few seconds(2-3). Linking of characters does not have an effect on the pillar size.

Again same problems as with the single target spells.

 

Additinal Tweaks:

• All priests allow to do everything, woodcut, mine, steal, archer, cata, .........,
• Priest are not allowed to Improve or continue and iteam.(this covers about 80% of the whole playtime, a big enough drawback)
• All Spells that do not have a BL/WL counterpart need to be removed or nerfed to the ground.
• Poison wounds need to be switched with rotten

Additinal Info:

• Damage scals liniar. if [50] does 5 damage a [100] cast does 10damage
• Soul Strength based damage reductions will be applied at the final Damage.(30 SS = *0.7, 60SS = *0.4)
• Soul Strength based damage multiplier will be applied to the 5 Damge.(30 SS = *1.3, 60SS = *1.6)
• Tentacles fits the theme of a water priest but, doesn't really balance it.
• Pain rain can not be justifed either after the removal of Tentacles and it can't be countered and does instant damage
• giving Lib spells rotten damage would not give them a much bigger advantage, since wounds should not stack anyways.
• Allow all WL kingoms to be every type of champ.
• Remove the ability for zomby trolls to wield weapons other than a huge club(test:they do 3x the damage with a huge axe)

What does this do?

It allows every faction of the game to have an equal situation in equal fights.(same fighter and same priest anount)

You wot mate? A fair chance? Using your formula someone would be completely immune to spell damage at 100SS and they'd be doing 2x damage to everyone around them. Fair? Not to mention damage reduction weighs more than damage increase (at 50SS you get 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75 etc), so them scaling exactly the same is just hilarious. Wow. And here I am thinking hate 11 is worthless now :\

Priests shouldn't be able to do everything but continue/imp. If that was the case everyone in BL would be priest and we'd have a few craft bicycles instead of the other way around.

What poison wounds? Fungus trap? those only show up as poison but are actually internals. They don't kill you.

Also, infections are WORTHLESS. a max power infection ticks once after like 10 minutes, disappears and will have added a STAGGERING 3 or so damage. Stacking wouldn't matter one bit, I think more people die to poison than infections (and only very few use poison weps so go figure).

Removing the Champ restrictions on template kingdoms kinda .. beats the point of those kingdoms being separate at all.. might as well be two separate alliances in the same kingdom then.

As for zombie trolls.. Yeah they're powerful, but I'd rather see dommed trolls given equip ability than weapons being removed from trolls, it's only a few more arrows to take down a zombie than it is to take a horse (and trolls barely glance so you'd shoot them down in no-time), and lib priests always move slower than WL players anyway because of the whole hell horse thing... ?