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Fujimo

Buying gold from AB Code

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I'd easily pay 2x-3x the cost of prem for playing on a server that has no RMT at all, not from players and not from rolf. A server that would have an actual ingame economy (with ingame faucets and sinks) fully isolated from RL cash. Rolf wouldn't loose money due to people paying more for premium. And i'm pretty sure there are enough people like me who hate the P2W RMT model.

 

Just sayin.

 

I never did like the current currency purchasing and RMT model of Wurm either. It's rather short-sighted and self-destructive, and it's problems are beginning to surface.

 

 

Been toying with the concept of suggesting they create a supported ingame system for coin transfers and take a transfer fee? That's no small amount of coding though to make a system like that secure.

 

The amount of money people are moving around this game and none of it going into dev hands makes me sad. They should get something for creating a vibrant player economy at least :/

 

 

I don't think Wurm's economy is an example of a 'good economy.' - I wouldn't even consider it a "vibrant player economy."

 

It's more of a drain the trader and sell it on the forums economy.

 

I consider Wurm's economy to be extremely stagnant. It's predominantly a buyer's market because there are so few buyers, and so many sellers. The reason why is because money is simply too overvalued. When money becomes this valuable, people tend to save it rather than spend it. It's made even worse by the awful shipping model in Wurm. (2 hours to ship 1s of goods? Have fun Mr. Merchant.)

 

Wurm's draw and appeal for me, is the ability to create. It doesn't really have any other appeal beyond that. There are better games to be a merchant in. In Wurm, only the smallest and hardest to join niche market (Selling High QL Tools to people who want to make and sell High QL Tools. A self sustaining market!) merchants will survive this market.

 

As far as gaming economy models go, I give Wurm a C- (I consider standard MMORPG economies to be a "C", which means Wurm's economy is worse than Rift's, FFXIV's or Aion's.)

 

It's not a dead market, but it's a barely sustaining one dependent entirely on the number of active deeds/trader drainers, and few rich individuals who renew the gold reserves with their real life money. (Or masses of people who are forced to purchase small amounts gold through shady tactics like the "Xanadu Land Rush") Unfortunately, you can't get away with doing the shady tactics every week... this means if those rich individuals ever quit, the availability of currency will go down even further (Only active deeds and trader draining will remain), driving up it's value even more. "If" that happens, trade will stop and all of Wurm will be a dead market. It probably won't, given the fanatic way people love this game, but the possibility that it could will always loom over the game's head like a Sword of Damocles.

 

The current currency purchasing model will never allow our economy to be able to improve above a C- grade, predominantly because the currency purchasing model is the problem itself. The economy can not improve, because only rich individuals in real life (or multi-server trader drainers) will have any purchasing power. Rich individuals will take advantage of the buyer's market by forcing prices to be driven down even further, meaning their purchasing power will never decrease, only increase - and the sellers will need to do more in 2014 to gain the same amount they earned back in 2012. This pattern will only continue, it will never correct itself. Wurm will always be a buyer's market. (Creating new servers and restricting access to servers for only new accounts will slow things down, but eventually it will normalize to a Buyer's Market anyways.)

 

For comparison, other C- games include games with still functioning but equally prohibitive markets like Diablo II, Diablo III, Guild Wars/Guild Wars 2 where only the smallest and hardest to join niche markets survive. Although their problem stems from the opposite issue of the spectrum. (Money being so devalued it's worthless, people actively barter rare goods because money is worthless. People purchase goods with Real Life money because in game money is pointless. In some cases, no player economy at all. A game controlled economy is still better than a dead player economy.)

 

So far, the only A includes the equal opportunity market of EvE. (Rejects the themepark "Highest Level Materials Only Model" of standard MMORPG's - Highly regionalized auction system without being restrictive, Transactions are relatively safe and easy, money drains aren't prohibitive, regional dead markets can be corrected by entrepreneurs moving bases quickly.)

 

An F obviously includes dead markets like Age of Conan's, Shadowbane's and Mortal Online's where only the most rarest of items are traded with any regularity. The rest of the money is earned through selling high value items directly to in-game vendors rather than to other players. The economy in these games, simply does not function for anybody outside of the largest clans/guilds. Earning money is a week long work process, and trade is so dangerous it becomes safer to base only out of safe zones. (Crafted items are worthless, money is worthless, and trade is difficult, slow and/or dangerous for sellers and buyers. This usually only occurs in declining or dying FFA-PvP games, or with games with extremely different economy models that simply failed to get off of the ground.)

Edited by Dairuka
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I don't understand this argument, saying that 1g should equal 100 euros comes from nothing but current player pricing. 1 gold in game terms = 160 euro, the player market then underprices that. Lowering the price to 100 euro to match anyone selling gold would lead to players selling it even cheaper.


 


Buying gold from players ingame will ALWAYS be cheaper due to risk factor, and while not supported, RMT is a part of this game and always has been by nature.


 


Most players I see selling gold coins arent actually trader drainers, but high level smiths and those who make a lot of money from their sales ingame.


 


Traders actually stop inflation, as silver lost through the game (purchasing trader items, premium time, deed upkeep) eventually flows back into the server, meaning it stays at a standard rate, instead of silver slowly disappearing ingame, money always stays in the game, and does not deflate or inflate in value, which is more to say than most other games.


 


And Dairuka, you are forgetting the fact that people BUY these coins off the forums, the money is then spent on ingame things, sure some is spent on deeds and disappears into server coffers, but a lot is spent on purchasing items and materials


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I don't understand this argument, saying that 1g should equal 100 euros comes from nothing but current player pricing. 1 gold in game terms = 160 euro, the player market then underprices that. Lowering the price to 100 euro to match anyone selling gold would lead to players selling it even cheaper.

 

Buying gold from players ingame will ALWAYS be cheaper due to risk factor, and while not supported, RMT is a part of this game and always has been by nature.

 

Most players I see selling gold coins arent actually trader drainers, but high level smiths and those who make a lot of money from their sales ingame.

 

Traders actually stop inflation, as silver lost through the game (purchasing trader items, premium time, deed upkeep) eventually flows back into the server, meaning it stays at a standard rate, instead of silver slowly disappearing ingame, money always stays in the game, and does not deflate or inflate in value, which is more to say than most other games.

 

And Dairuka, you are forgetting the fact that people BUY these coins off the forums, the money is then spent on ingame things, sure some is spent on deeds and disappears into server coffers, but a lot is spent on purchasing items and materials

 

It constantly trickles towards a decline in available money, rather than growth due to the main money sinks of purchasing premium and trader contracts. It takes time for the money sinks to redistribute. The money from the money sinks will eventually be dispersed back out to the public through trader draining, but more people are saving the money they do receive as payment, because the value of that money is so high they don't want to part with it. More people are quitting with money in their pockets as well, because they save and save up until the moment they decide to leave for good. (This acts as permanent currency loss in Wurm, but it's still counted by the servers, so it always projects growth.)

 

Wurm's problem isn't currency inflation, but a deflation of goods prices. Only the rarest of goods will sell with any regularity - and the price of other goods will continue to fall as competition gets fiercer. The prices can't normalize, because there will always be competition for all but the rarest of goods, while the lower availability of money results in fewer buyers outside of already established players looking only for the rarest of goods. It's the opposite problem of Guild Wars, but it's similar in effect.

 

The only thing that has proven to increase prices temporarily, are new servers and server accessibility restrictions. Of course, it's a temporary fix. All of the markets regardless of accessibility eventually suffer from this problem, because it's a problem with the currency purchasing model of Wurm.

Edited by Dairuka

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besides that the coins from those players you are buying them from are also coming from somewhere :)

when someone is having a business in wurm lots of players spend small amounts of money to pay with coins ingame items and then some sellers are saving that money until they have enough to sell it as 1 gold :)

so in the end it does land in rolfs pocket....not sure how much traders are influencing income though

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It's not a problem with the purchasing structure of Wurm at all, its the nature of the game, as more players hit high levels the supply of high level tools increases, some do quit, or stop producing tools but the fact is tomorrow more players will be able to produce 90ql tools than yesterday, and so on and so on.


 


Few players quit with money in their pockets, as most sell off accounts and funds, or give them away, which means minimal losses through this method.


 


You argue that supply is increasing, which somehow causes inflation and thus no market seems a bit abstract, and more a guess at whats going on than any actual basis. Many players make a living ingame by providing high end tools or bulk materials, competition is simply large, which means the coin spent ingame is over a large amount of sellers, rather than any distinct group of merchants.


 


This model is not self destructive nor short sighted, it has functioned for 8+ years. Nearly every other mmo has turned into complete deflation with simple items costing millions in less time than that.


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It's not a problem with the purchasing structure of Wurm at all, its the nature of the game, as more players hit high levels the supply of high level tools increases, some do quit, or stop producing tools but the fact is tomorrow more players will be able to produce 90ql tools than yesterday, and so on and so on.

 

Few players quit with money in their pockets, as most sell off accounts and funds, or give them away, which means minimal losses through this method.

 

You argue that supply is increasing, which somehow causes inflation and thus no market seems a bit abstract, and more a guess at whats going on than any actual basis. Many players make a living ingame by providing high end tools or bulk materials, competition is simply large, which means the coin spent ingame is over a large amount of sellers, rather than any distinct group of merchants.

 

This model is not self destructive nor short sighted, it has functioned for 8+ years. Nearly every other mmo has turned into complete deflation with simple items costing millions in less time than that.

 

I graded Wurm's economy a C- because it still functions. I also gave reasons as to why I feel the game's current model will always function. I call it self-destructive because the model itself is the reason why it could be destroyed. It's the same reason why I call FFA-PvP self-destructive, because it inherently is the reason why so many of those games are destroyed. Even hyper inflation economies of standard MMORPG's can function better than what we have right now.

 

The developers obviously feel the same way that I do, because they've introduced selling to the Deed Token as an additional redistribution method in an attempt to speed up distribution between trader resetting intervals to increase small-scale purchases from newer players who don't have access to the high skill markets. It still doesn't counter the problem of people saving money and quitting however. Not everybody sells their accounts when they quit, not everybody returns to Wurm three years later either.

 

More needs to be done to correct the current trend.

Edited by Dairuka

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I don't understand this argument, saying that 1g should equal 100 euros comes from nothing but current player pricing. 1 gold in game terms = 160 euro, the player market then underprices that. Lowering the price to 100 euro to match anyone selling gold would lead to players selling it even cheaper.

 

...

Silver in game IS cheaper, 1g costs 160 euro from the store, but in game you can work for it, you can drain trader etc. That means easy cash, which makes coins cheaper than from store.

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Okay so they make RMT illegal... Like every other game..


And then the masses create black market websites and still have RMT...


 


It is like the war on drugs in America, a proven example of how making things illegal only makes things worse and causes more headache for those around and those at the top.


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Simple post if 1 Gold sells for 100 euros I pay according to exchange rates 136 usd


 


But the Wurm shop charges 156 usd.  Why?


 


Do the players in europe that purchase gold pay 100 euros for 1 gold? That is 136 usd


 


Why must I have to pay more than european players if that is the case.


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If they made real money trade illegal, you'd see most of the people we need here leave the game, and the market would go with them.

I don't take part in the market, but I've bought 8 gold in the past six months alone from the website, I consider it at a perfect price. Yes, players are cheaper, but they will always be.

If you notice, the people that often play this game over the averge person are the ones that use RMT more so then others, and at the same time, they're usually the ones doing more work in the game world to. - they're the ones suppying the bulk of goods in the market we have.

Let's say everything becomes silver, well, there goes any and all bulk trade, only things you'll see being sold would be very hard to get items (rare/supremes/vanity) and the goods market (stone, dirt, ect) would likely be more then gone, especially to the newer players.

We already get charged a ridiculous amount for deeds, ontop of that we *need* premium. Deeds are very expensive when you think about it, though compared to the game world you could argue it's "decent size"

Real money trade is the last thing anyone needs to worry about, especially when it's doing more good then harm.

*from a guy that's bought 15g+ through the store*

I'd also like to throw in here, I'd like to see more mechanics to allow alts. Yes, I know there is a group of you that think we should all only have one character. Well I'm sorry, I like to play this game to its full potential :P

Would be nice to see a option to pay for all my accounts at one time (at the same price) though it would be even nicer to see a discount when running multiple ones, but overall if just like it made easier to do so, to save me time.

And if possible, a way to see & pay for deed upkeep through the store itself. Maybe inject 10s directly to my deed, or if they really want to make it good, be able to pay 30-60-90 ect days for it.

I think the goods traders sell too need to be looked at. They should be at a price where more players have access to them. For example, I'm easily able to buy anything off a trader, but I'm only one person. So let's say 1/10 people buy that rod of transmutation. Would it not be better, if 3/10 people would, even if at a cheaper price?

I think in general, most items off a trader are just to expensive to make them worthwhile. Examples would be sleep powder, even without players selling them, nobody will buy 1 hour of sleep bonus for 5 silver. Same can be said for the rod of transmutation, 50s for 10k hits on a vein? While I can see a few buying it, in general, you'd see many more sell if a bit more accessible.

Just my 2k+ euro. :)

Edited by Druidnature

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I have purchased at 12 gold from the shop since first of the year.  I love the ease of the transaction.


That is not my question.


 


I just want to know why people paying with us dollars have to pay a 15% premium over the euro/usd exchange rates.

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Simple post if 1 Gold sells for 100 euros I pay according to exchange rates 136 usd

 

But the Wurm shop charges 156 usd.  Why?

 

Do the players in europe that purchase gold pay 100 euros for 1 gold? That is 136 usd

 

Why must I have to pay more than european players if that is the case.

Where does it sell for 100e? It only sells for 100e from the players not the game the game store sells them for 160e or like 115e from the new thing i guess. It has not been 100e from the game store for a long time now over a year anyway.

Edited by Kegan

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Ok thanks Kegan that make more sense... i was told that the european market pays 1 gold for 100 euros.

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Ok thanks Kegan that make more sense... i was told that the european market pays 1 gold for 100 euros.

Well i don't live in Europe but i can't imagine them having a cheaper price point.

 

Now as to why Xsolla and PayPal has such a large price variance i have no idea on that one. I guess Xsolla just sells them cheaper making less profit..idk

Edited by Kegan

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The shop sells them for 160 euros due to price + VAT.


 


In order to remove VAT, we would have to provide proof of our residence outside of europe (i.e. passport, licence etc. this isnt required when shipping actual goods due to them physically leaving the euro zone) All of this would have to be accumulated data (and very personal info) incase of an audit on codeclub.


 


Xsolla most likely has been through that system with Rolf, and achieved VAT exempt status, meaning they buy gold from codeclub at the rate minus VAt (also most likely reduced due to merchant prices vs customer prices). This allows them to sell at a lower rate.


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I paid 1000 swedish kronor for my gold coin from shop, which is about 109e.

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The shop sells them for 160 euros due to price + VAT.

 

In order to remove VAT, we would have to provide proof of our residence outside of europe (i.e. passport, licence etc. this isnt required when shipping actual goods due to them physically leaving the euro zone) All of this would have to be accumulated data (and very personal info) incase of an audit on codeclub.

 

Xsolla most likely has been through that system with Rolf, and achieved VAT exempt status, meaning they buy gold from codeclub at the rate minus VAt (also most likely reduced due to merchant prices vs customer prices). This allows them to sell at a lower rate.

Actually you don't.

 

If CCAB provides a summary of VAT included in the charge (either per bill of sale or annual against the account) you can simply file for a VAT return.  At 20% VAT, that equates to something like 16.5% of the total charge before currency conversion and paypal/Xsolla fees  (CCAB is within a 25%VAT nation if someone wants to do the math).

 

This requires nothing from CCAB other than to disclose the VAT value per transaction.  Since the last time I bough coin/premium, the payment processors only allow a single item transaction at a time, so it should be fairly straight forward.

Edited by Hussars

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Actually you don't.

 

If CCAB provides a summary of VAT included in the charge (either per bill of sale or annual against the account) you can simply file for a VAT return.  At 20% VAT, that equates to something like 16.5% of the total charge before currency conversion and paypal/Xsolla fees  (CCAB is within a 25%VAT nation if someone wants to do the math).

 

This requires nothing from CCAB other than to disclose the VAT value per transaction.  Since the last time I bough coin/premium, the payment processors only allow a single item transaction at a time, so it should be fairly straight forward.

 

I don't see them releasing that information any time soon because they cant even keep the financial statement up to date on there website which currently says the 2010-11 financial statement is the most recent one.

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Withdrawn I responded to a different post. Sorry. 


Edited by BuddyDude

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"this game will die soon"


 


 


~ Said ten years ago by many people.  B)


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A gold coin. Some of you must think a gold coin should be easy to get. Someone is mad because they can't make a gold coin? 
How can the game survive with everyone buying from players? The game is gonna die! You can play the game for free with people who pay to play! Seriously we need more male enhancement adds. Play the game work up and pay in game! Oh gee golly wiz I can't pay right off the bat for premium it's to much but I want skill beyond 20, get 20 1st! if you can't make a few coins by then something is wrong with this game.

I have a guy at the castle in front of 10+ bsb full of rockshards making bricks, he will have premium in a couple weeks np not even playing a lot at all.. I seen a lot about how to pay, what methods to pay how much it to play, paying in real money. Only way you get high skills here is work for it or pay out your ass for an account that probly has 1000 hours on it and break that down, pretty solid deal. How about surveys? do some, some ppl made 1st prem doing them, A game has many more ways today to get money than just players paying, the commercials and adds bring money. We don't have any in game and I keep getting updates and new releases.guess it's not that bad. So you wanna do away with players selling hard earn coins for hours of work they invest because you can play for cheap? Get over it or find another game. Imp something to 95 and say again, then compare the price to what we make off that item in game and break it down into money per hour. Wurm works like real, we pay taxes on land and right and we get to make business and economy move. then we pay some more, you get out what you put in. if your goals are to:  have a land hog of a deed, big upkeep, 4 toons and can't make the ends to pay for it, you may wanna downsize a bit ~.^ 

The argument is why the store cost a lot, yup it does, just like money cost us a lot in years, time, planning, work and sweat. You want that shiny new car, pay for it, plain and simple, shouldn't people feel good that they can shop and get coin cheaper from players? Not sure I even understand here seems like, more hate because some pay to play all day and some play all day to get paid.   



I don't wanna be anything other than what I been trying to be lately.
 

Edited by zalifear
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[/rant]

 

 

The OP was saying they don't like that the current pricing is more or less driving them to buy coin from other players.  It has nothing to do with how easy/hard it is to earn coin in game.  They want to give money to CCAB, but the value isn't there if you can buy the same item for less from a player.

 

What the hell is up with people trying to shame the players injecting real money into the game lately?

 

If everyone stops buying coin from CCAB because player coin sellers are so much cheaper, your supply of coin to sell will eventually dry up.  It might not happen in the near future, but eventually people will get tired of buying in at the CCAB premium price when they can get more coin for less from players.

 

How many players buy (or would buy) from the store now vs. before the price increase a year ago?

Edited by Hussars

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/rant

/rant

Ranting about players selling ingame currency for less than you're able to acquire from the Wurm Shop is... is just... incomprehensibly stupid.

First of all, it's just the most simplest of business. Of course you have to offer something cheaper than someone else. But face it, there's a risk to it as a buyer. You'll never know if you really get the ingame coin after you sent the real life money or vice versa.

Let's guess that you mostly do, but you can never be sure, unless you use the official Wurm Shop. Quality value.

We are incredibly lucky that such sales and purchases are in compliance with the EULA of Wurm, that we can get something back for the many many many [...] many hours we spent doing virtual labour. And also, that the price of a silver coin is so tighly knit to a real life currency.

All in all, I think it's a good thing, although I never sold or purchased anything for real currency, I do endorse the possibility, and have entertained the thought.

Whenever I needed coin up until now, I either did it through effort/trade ingame (e.g. to pay for my deed's upkeep), or I bought it from the shop simply.

I simply cannot see a problem in the original post or opinions supporting it. Quite on the contrary, I'm happy that Codeclub AB, and Rolf, is not trying to mother**** milk every single last buck out of us that he can get, like so many F2P and other payment model games do nowadays.

Can't you see that?

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/rant

 

/rant

 

/rant

 

/rant

 

Xanadu's Land Rush wasn't for the sake of new players.

 

[03:51] Rolf's Milking increased by 0.000181 to 99.930892

 

Almost there!

Edited by Dairuka

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Ok thanks Kegan that make more sense... i was told that the european market pays 1 gold for 100 euros.

 

I pay 115 euro for 1g in the Netherlands, using the iDEAL payment option. I see you used a conversion of 1 euro is 1.36 dollars? That works out to 156 dollars then, exactly the amount you mentioned. So it looks like there's no actual premium involved, though you are paying VAT even though you don't live in Europe. Would be nice if Rolf could at least do something about that.

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