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Battlepaw

Server Border/Connection Renovations on Chaos, and the rest of the Freedom Cluster

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During several topics recently, a debate has arose.   How to fix Chaos's server connection issues.   This isn't a new debate, it dates back long ago, when the server was first connected.   It predates even us getting PMKs.  It started from the very first moment we were connected and players realized that we would have only one side of the map to travel with. 


 


Yes, the discussion predates even Chaos itself:  http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/54141-wild-future-plans-discussion/


 


My first reaction when I heard that only one side goes anywhere was a chuckle, and then a face palm. Even then, before PMKs, I could see how problematic it would be.   As MR and JK both formed their PMKs we asked time and time again, for some changes to the server's connection tree.  


 


An ongoing topic/grievance


 


Anyways, this issue has only grown worse over the years as the server's gameplay has shifted to respond to our connection to the freedom servers and now that we have more PMKs forming, and more on the way, it's been a serious flash point.  


 


A few examples of Polls and Topics with this issue in it over the years:


 


http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/62581-sailable-west-of-chaos/


http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/93815-pvp-easy-fruits/


http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/102841-an-easy-solution-for-all-server-crossing-scenarios-now-and-forever/


http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/90928-freedomchaos-travel-coodown-blocking-travel-in-enemy-presens/


http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/90991-what-do-you-think-the-best-way-to-connect-the-servers-are-poll/


http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/78844-proposed-connection-of-freedom-server-maps/


http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/75795-connect-all-of-wurm/


 


I know there are quite a few more, I'm missing, and this isn't counting the dozens of topics that got hijacked into massive debates concerning how server connections would shape politics, trade and PvP on Chaos.   There is a long history of us wanting this situation resolved.  


 


 


Why this issue has flared up again


 


When the new "map" was released I think we have given up all faith in the development team to even consider that it is an important issue, despite the outcry over the years.  Now we not only still only have one server border, but we are being delegated to a backwater, while every other server on the cluster has a direct connection to Xandu as a hub.  


 


First, this means we not only have to cross Deli, we have to cross Xandu to get to many of our deeds that we have on Exo, etc.    Ones that are now just a short hop, have become an epic journey.    This has a massive impact alone, but is nothing compared to the other issues.


 


This has often been incited to ostensibly to put us out of the way of the PvE server for the cluster's own protection or something, as if Chaos is some sort of cancer, and not a valuable part of the game experience.   I can understand not wanting to participate in PvP, but there are other ways to ensure people can bypass us or not stumble into this server by accident then making us a removed wing of the cluster.


 


This isn't something I'm pulling out of the blue, we have had polls and more than a few major topics with long debates on the subjects dealing with our connections and how we feel about our interactions with the rest of the Cluster,  this also includes crossing to freedom.   


 


The issue we also have now is the fact we have players from existing kingdoms, using the border as a getaway device, to work around the PvP mechanics.    Raid a deed, then hop across the server border, even if the pursuit is right behind you. 


The biggest problem with this isn't so much the fact they can get to safety, but that the space between ocean and border isn't enough on the East side, along the coast to give defender enough time to a archer a fleeing combatant down.   


 


Proposal:


 


What I'm proposing is two-fold, first per Rosedragon's suggestion in another topic, to extend the server border so the enemy has to come well inside Chaos to reach land in any direction, and to add connections to Chaos on all four sides.   This also helps offset the increased travel distance, since every side of the map could just leave from their coastline to another server, and cross again there.  This is why in most of my maps I've surrounded chaos with smaller servers.   Could do the same thing with Xandu, and take advantage of the corner traveling as I've outlined before to hop quickly between servers, cutting down on travel time.   There is also the advantage of hopping  through servers until you come out on the side you want on your destination.  


 


There is however more than one way we can go about this, as discussed in other topics, from what I've seen the all four side connection map is idea is the most accepted, but trying to agree on what server should go where ought to be discussed and given to an official poll. It should depend on factors such as existing markets, and infrastructure, player base preference (such as pristine and release players commenting about wanting some buffer space)  Etc.  


 


The other option instead of arranging servers in a huge interconnected map is having an option to sail to other servers with a check box, perhaps done by regional distribution, etc whenever you cross any server border. There are some very good examples listed over the years of traveling between regions, and specific server destination targeting.    


 


This is possibly one of the most game changing changes that can be implemented, not just for chaos, but for travel across the whole freedom cluster.   I mean honestly, even with the massive effect that it will have on the future of PMKs here on Chaos, why would you only want one server connection, and a ridged, rather than fluid crossing map? 


 


Why should every server be restricted by having some sides of the server get more traffic simply because they have a connection to another server?  Why can't you go south, and circle the Wurm "globe" and come out north somewhere?   This won't break immersion it will complete it. 


 


From looking through the posts over the years there are three things we need to make this work and possibly to get a consensus with the entire cluster.


 


Important Points:


 


1.  The ability to bypass chaos if need be. All suggestions I've seen forcing players to go through chaos just ended in endless drama, which is understandable when the majority of the cluster players are PvE.


 


2. Server connections on ALL sides of every server.  This is important, most of the daisy chain designs I've seen weren't very popular in many of the topics on server linking. (Nor are they now for that matter)  I still remember the outcry when Rolf was considering tacking Pristine and Release onto Celebration.   


 


3. Extension of sea border as an additional buffer for Chaos.   This is probably the best compromise I've seen on trying to prevent raid and ducking to PvE servers, without implementing any kind of crossing barrier, which I've seen, won't be a popular feature if added.   If servers are added to all four sides of Chaos, raiding and ducking will be a big problem, some of our sea-border distances are VERY small.   Especially in the North and South sides.  IF this is added along with perhaps ways to damage ships it would be a nice solution, and more interesting than just having a magic barrier preventing flight.  


 


My questions to the Freedom Cluster: 


What is wrong with a dynamic connection, where you have complete control where you will end up, what side of a destination you will come out at, and a way to give access to other servers on all sides?


 


Are you truly all happy with a single  or sometimes only one other connection? Do you even think that is fair at all to the player base, both for equal growth across your server and for time investment?


 


What I'm asking here is if there should be support for a more fluid travel system, and if it's important to the future of not just Chaos but Freedom Cluster as a whole. 


Edited by Battlepaw
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Indeed well said. Some valid points and well written.  If it is feasible to code these, then the suggestions seem like the most constructive solutions.


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"What is wrong with a dynamic connection, where you have complete control where you will end up, what side of a destination you will come out at, and a way to give access to other servers on all sides?"


 


That is teleporting, i.e. cheating.


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Indeed well said. Some valid points and well written.  If it is feasible to code these, then the suggestions seem like the most constructive solutions.

 

I've been tracking this issue for years man, this is just me outlineing the massive input I've seen in some of the best topics, like Xallo's first interconnection proposal, or Rosedragon's nifty idea, that shifted the train of thought to the actual issue at hand. The mechanics of sea warfare, WHY it's important.   What I'm trying to do with this post is outline everything as best I can.   I would urge some of you to look though some of those past topics and see how we have evolved over the years on this issue.  

 

Xandu's size itself makes a big impact on this discussion, and much of the debate now is influenced heavily on the "Official" map that seems to be what the developers want us to look like vs what we actually need to thrive.    Player input is crucial.   

 

"What is wrong with a dynamic connection, where you have complete control where you will end up, what side of a destination you will come out at, and a way to give access to other servers on all sides?"

 

That is teleporting, i.e. cheating.

 

We teleport every time we cross the server border anyways. This won't eliminate all travel times, just give wurm a larger, more connected feeling It will cut down on haveing to travel all the way across a server you could have gotten to with a better route and saved time by going in another direction.  Right now it feels like a bit of a daisy,chain, the fact that you can't pick a direction and end up somewhere on any server border if we follow the right route across servers is a great disservice to how immersive the Wurm world can become, vs what it is now, and what I see in our future unless we try to make sure the developers look at the issue.  

Edited by Battlepaw

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+1

the same situation as Chaos has now Celebration too, it is end of world, losing its population and deeds, mostly only hermits and hunters left there

sailing away from any server to any side should show combobox or checkbox with list of freedom servers and second one with selected side north/east/west/south ... easy and universal solution



sailing between Indy and Cele, fighting with wind and with some lag it is easy to sail to Chaos inadvertently, with solution above it is not possible

with today chain connection of servers, some parts of servers are completely forgotten (North Indy, south Cele, west Chaos ...), above solution can solve this, placing all server sides to the fair, equal position


EDIT: yes, it can be considered as teleporting, but in positive way
why nobody want sail between servers, because it is hours to sail anywhere, Indy-Cele-Indy can be whole weekend "adventure" with risk of issues on every server crossing, that is why I'm doing it only one or two times per month, while most of Wurmians never doing such crazy things

small bit of "teleporting" can shorten this sailing pain and promote more sailing as result


EDIT 2: to show negative sides too, such solution can render boat bridges between servers useless probably, until spawn on servers side will not be random, but fixed point, what on other side can render server corners as "world end places"

Edited by Zakerak

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Cut off Chaos from the rest of Freedom, send your kill teams to your own uniques.


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imagine from release going to chaos, or to celebration... duh... you better just disband your release deed lol..



 


 


Cut off Chaos from the rest of Freedom, send your kill teams to your own uniques.

Some chaos players are also players on specific freedom servers, either still active or not. I know what cause your unhappiness but there is no need for such big grudge toward all :/ ... like my kingdom don't send any kill team, only me and yurik acting independently being invited by our freedom friends. Plus, chaos inhabitants buy more from freedom than freedom buy from chaos from what I have seen.


Edited by rosedragon

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Yyeeeah... sailing ruins the immersion, teleports will fix THAT ...................... 


 


 


139579966381.png


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Yyeeeah... sailing ruins the immersion, teleports will fix THAT ...................... 

 

 

Right, that's how I read it too? Glad I am not the only one.

 

And now they are dissing that people are living like hermits at the end of the world. Seriously, if you don't want to live like a hermit, then don't settle at the end of the game world (when was Cele not the end of the world???).

There are people who *love* being hermits and will move away if they see 2 people in local. But they don't create long winding threads about it. Poor fellows.

 

*Finally* we get a bigger world now with huge distances between major populations, that can spur some actual long-distance trade and transport business. And they already demand teleports... oh man I feel so old with these kids around. 

Edited by Cista
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First, this means we not only have to cross Deli, we have to cross Xandu to get to many of our deeds that we have on Exo, etc.    Ones that are now just a short hop, have become an epic journey.    This has a massive impact alone, but is nothing compared to the other issues.

 

Why do you need to cross Xanadu to get from Chaos to Exodus? What am I missing here?

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imagine from release going to chaos, or to celebration... duh... you better just disband your release deed lol..

Some chaos players are also players on specific freedom servers, either still active or not. I know what cause your unhappiness but there is no need for such big grudge toward all :/ ... like my kingdom don't send any kill team, only me and yurik acting independently being invited by our freedom friends. Plus, chaos inhabitants buy more from freedom than freedom buy from chaos from what I have seen.

Hit the kingdoms with the kill teams while they're out and about and we'll call it square.  ;)

 

I don't actually think Chaos shut be cut off, as I'd like to give it a go someday, it's just hard to take pleas for low population seriously when all Chaos players are doing is raiding PvE servers uniques.

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Hit the kingdoms with the kill teams while they're out and about and we'll call it square.  ;)

 

I don't actually think Chaos shut be cut off, as I'd like to give it a go someday, it's just hard to take pleas for low population seriously when all Chaos players are doing is raiding PvE servers uniques.

not all, but well yes.. it happen ;p . I think that now they will respawn randomly, than the old time where those who can afford to pen the uniques win forever and ever, freedomers will have chances to start coordinating, as witnessed on our hunts :).

Edited by rosedragon

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The posts about teleportation have the right idea, but they seem to have the idea that the solution proposed by the OP will add teleportation, while it is actually the current travel system which will do that.


The OPs idea pretty much seems to come down to one which has been suggested a couple of times over the years; being able to travel to any server from a border. For example if you go west on Chaos then you'd get a list of servers to choose from as your destination. I'd personally not allow the player to choose which border to the destination server he ends up on. When going to a server on which you have never been I'd make the arrival border the opposite of the border by which you left, and if you return to a server which you left earlier then you return to the spot you left. By combinging these two restrictions you can prevent border crossing from being used to get to the other side of a server quickly. There, all the teleportation issues just went out of the window.


 


This fixes a lot of issues, including teleportation like issues which exist in the current travel system once Xanadu is connected up. Are you on the NE point of Independence and do you need to get to the south coast of that server? Why sail south for an hour or two when you can get there within a minute or two, no matter the wind. Go east to Xanadu (you'd arrive on the north edge of the west border of Xanadu), then immediately go West to Deliverance (now you are on the north edge of the east border of Deli) and then immediately go North to Independence and you are in the east edge of the south border of Independence, all in a few minutes. If crossing 4km in a minute or two isn't fast enough to be called teleportation then what is?


 


So I agree that Wurm needs a more free form travel system, where you can go from any server to any other server in the cluster without being forced to pass through other servers, but with proper restrictions on where you arrive on the destination server, so that it cannot be abused as much as the current system soon can be. The current system clearly shows it doesn't scale well, as teleportation like issues will show up in the Xanadu connection design given by the devs. Just imagine how much worse that will become when more servers are added in the future.


Edited by Ecrir

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Hit the kingdoms with the kill teams while they're out and about and we'll call it square.  ;)

 

I don't actually think Chaos shut be cut off, as I'd like to give it a go someday, it's just hard to take pleas for low population seriously when all Chaos players are doing is raiding PvE servers uniques.

I don't think you realize that a vast number of Chaos residents also have deeds on the PVE servers. We pay as much into Freedom coffers as you do plus we also invest an exorbitant amount of money into Chaos deeds.

I can assure you that just because many of us spend the majority of our time on the PVP server does not mean we don't invest both time and money on the servers you consider your own and in many case for far longer than you have.

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Approach any border of any map:


 


===============================


Where would you like to go?


 


Select Map:  <List of Freedom Maps>


 


Select Coast:  <North, South, East, West>


 


OK


===============================


 


 http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/102841-an-easy-solution-for-all-server-crossing-scenarios-now-and-forever/


 


If this were implemented, my 2+ hour trip to Xanadu from Deli would have been 1+ hour with absolutely no loss of immersion.


Edited by Eyesgood
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The other option instead of arranging servers in a huge interconnected map is having an option to sail to other servers with a check box, perhaps done by regional distribution, etc whenever you cross any server border. There are some very good examples listed over the years of traveling between regions, and specific server destination targeting.

 

Anything but this. Being able to teleport across the freedom cluster (or any for that matter) in the blink of a checkbox will not only damage immersion, but make the role of boat speed and wind less important.

 

Wurm is a game where every single action takes time, sailing is one of those. I do think boats need an overhaul though. The quality of a boat should affect the speed and passengers should have an increased effect on the speed compared to what they currently do now.

 

Since the cluster is (hopefully) about to become massive one, I think wind should also have slightly less effect on boats, if the above changes were made.  Sailing at 4km/h across Xanadu/inde/chaos because the RNG decided its your turn for a bad day of wind is not exactly fun. But again, this is no reason to add border teleportation. Instead, its a chance to fix something that has needed reworking for years.

 

I also agree on the border problem though. But it should be fixed without screwing borders up for the rest of the cluster. Rolf needs to fix the horrible system he has in place where you can go to Chaos from any of the 4 current freedom servers, but only back to deli from Chaos. It is this, at least IMO that causes the biggest headache for Chaos players who travel back and forth. As for Xanadu, there isn't much to say here, since even the two current Freedom clusters will be divided with Xanadu in the middle.

 

We also have to remember that PVE-only players greatly outnumber the amount of PVP players, whether its liked or not. This is probably the main reason Rolf hasn't given Chaos a direct Xanadu connection and why Epic hasn't had much attention as of the last few months besides tweaks here and there.

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Approach any border of any map:

===============================

Where would you like to go?

Select Map: <List of Freedom Maps>

Select Coast: <North, South, East, West>

OK

===============================

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/102841-an-easy-solution-for-all-server-crossing-scenarios-now-and-forever/

+1 the most guys are right. Everything in wurm needs time but why do we need to make it more complicated as it allready is :-) just to say hey i wasted 3 hours to sail over a server i dont needed? Yeah that will be a lot of fun ;-)

/edit oh and about that "immersion", when i fall down 40 slopes i nearly break my neck but i can "jump" in a 90 slope deep mining entrance and nothing happens ;-)

Edited by Biervampyr

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honestly I don´t know why Xanadu server border can´t be spliced, you have a 32 or whatever it is border and no matter where you cross it you end in a server with a 8 km border, is just a stupid mechanic, wen you can split the border in 4 sections and connect 4 servers to one in both ways.


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____________________________________________________________________________________________________


"The other option instead of arranging servers in a huge interconnected map is having an option to sail to other servers with a check box, perhaps done by regional distribution, etc whenever you cross any server border. There are some very good examples listed over the years of traveling between regions, and specific server destination targeting."


____________________________________________________________________________________________________


Yes, I already suggested this when the connection points to by sailing to Xanadu were first being brought up. My details were a bit more specific and can be looked up, so I won't waste time beating this dead horse other than to say it would work just as well for Chaos as the others.


 


Beyond this, I object to the whole idea of giving preferential treatment to Chaos and arranging all other servers to serve their needs, as well as the hidden agendas behind it. Chaos players are a very (very) minor portion of the player base and to cater to their desires in this manner makes little sense.


 


Furthermore, we do not even know how the other PvE servers will be connected to Xanadu yet. It seems to me from looking at the only sailing transit route map supplied by the Dev's, that it would then be a straight off to the side sail from each server to Xanadu without the need to sail to any of the others in the process. This then is an improved system for all of the PvE servers whom the emphasis should be upon. Chaos will just have to travel through Deliverance as they always have done. Nothing changes there and the PvE servers are not involved in their issues.


 


=Ayes=


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Chaos players are a very (very) minor portion of the player base

 

Yeah, but we're prettier.

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____________________________________________________________________________________________________

"The other option instead of arranging servers in a huge interconnected map is having an option to sail to other servers with a check box, perhaps done by regional distribution, etc whenever you cross any server border. There are some very good examples listed over the years of traveling between regions, and specific server destination targeting."

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Yes, I already suggested this when the connection points to by sailing to Xanadu were first being brought up. My details were a bit more specific and can be looked up, so I won't waste time beating this dead horse other than to say it would work just as well for Chaos as the others.

 

Beyond this, I object to the whole idea of giving preferential treatment to Chaos and arranging all other servers to serve their needs, as well as the hidden agendas behind it. Chaos players are a very (very) minor portion of the player base and to cater to their desires in this manner makes little sense.

 

Furthermore, we do not even know how the other PvE servers will be connected to Xanadu yet. It seems to me from looking at the only sailing transit route map supplied by the Dev's, that it would then be a straight off to the side sail from each server to Xanadu without the need to sail to any of the others in the process. This then is an improved system for all of the PvE servers whom the emphasis should be upon. Chaos will just have to travel through Deliverance as they always have done. Nothing changes there and the PvE servers are not involved in their issues.

 

=Ayes=

You still require jumping three servers to release. I'm up for improvement for WHOLE travel system, making the map a globe :) .

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Yes Globe is preferable to me to.  I don't mind a selection on where you want to go, though doing it by reigons, so you still have to travel through servers to maintain the distance scale of the game, just that the direction you move is you own choice.   Its kind of like when you face one direction, the popup will give you all server options you can travel from that side of the map, the ones next to your server in that "Reigon"  you chose the one you want just as if you were sailing in a sphere.  Basically the maps them selves would be arranged in a theoretical globe, when you are traveling to one side of of a server you don't have a single destination, you can go to all the servers that are close to you in that globe area.  I know it's not what many of you want to hear, since it dosen't allow us to use a server border like a stargate for your ship, since you still have to travel across servers on the way to try to get to the server and side you want, you just have more options then if you were following one set destination per side.   


 


The problem with the future map is that it only connects one side per server in many cases.    In all cases most traffic will be aligned to one  or two sides of a server, with other sides being left out.   It's much like we still have, instead its just arranged with Xandu's West border there for a hub.   You also have to traverse that massive server when trying to get to any other server, rather than going around Xandu if you want.    I'm not sure everyone quite realizes the scale of that server, and how long distances will be if you have to traverse the entire server just to get to the server where you want to go, not to mention if your destination is like in the interior of Indy or on the other side of where you come out, forcing you to sail even longer.   Xandu doesn't really as much function as a hub, but a massive distance barrier to many players that have to cross it to get to another server if it's on the opposite side.    


 


There is also the problem in that design for Xandu residents itself, with the new map being aligned to the west server border, except for Pristine and release.  This puts the residents of the West side at a huge advantage, and distances the other parts of the server.    


 


Mag help you if your trying to go from Indy to celebration or even worse, trying to get from Pristine or Release to Chaos.   


Edited by Battlepaw

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I have no issues with having a ckeckbox at any server border, allowing you to pick the destination server of your choice. 

Any other type of configuration of the server's positioning is going to be advantageous to some, while hurting others. Checkboxes make it fair for everyone.

Besides, not many find it enjoyable to spend 6 hours of their play time semi-afk sailing.

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