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Rolf

Traders and the new servers

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hmhm, no private traders, just those on starter deeds, interesting plan.

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The plan Redbaron hinted at in a news is good.


"


Most probably they will have a type of trading ratio that will log how much they are being used.


For example how many unique premium accounts that sold and bought to them.


This will be the basis for the measure of how much currency they will receive from the crown to be able to buy more items.


We are still coding the feature so more information will follow later.


"


It rewards traders that have experienced high counts of unique premium toons. This simple change kills the practice of locking up a trader for ones own benet. Its a good idea because it rewards players for attracting more players to their trader. 


 


Only allowing the traders at Xan's starter towns is a bad idea long term. Players are never allowed to build markets, coliseum, or any type of community gathering location at the starter towns. It just doesn't make sense to not let players buy/place traders. Stopping players from placing traders on Xan is ok as a short term solution.


 


I hope there are plans in place to limit people who can camp traders all day taking coin as soon as it arrives. 


 


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The plan Redbaron hinted at in a news is good.

"

Most probably they will have a type of trading ratio that will log how much they are being used.

For example how many unique premium accounts that sold and bought to them.

This will be the basis for the measure of how much currency they will receive from the crown to be able to buy more items.

We are still coding the feature so more information will follow later.

"

It rewards traders that have experienced high counts of unique premium toons. This simple change kills the practice of locking up a trader for ones own benet. Its a good idea because it rewards players for attracting more players to their trader. 

 

Only allowing the traders at Xan's starter towns is a bad idea long term. Players are never allowed to build markets, coliseum, or any type of community gathering location at the starter towns. It just doesn't make sense to not let players buy/place traders. Stopping players from placing traders on Xan is ok as a short term solution.

 

I hope there are plans in place to limit people who can camp traders all day taking coin as soon as it arrives. 

 

Well you could allow for contracts etc to be sold on merchants.  I see no real reason for the game to push coin out to the players through Traders at all.  A player driven economy should be just that.  When I see other players having to pay upkeep into deeds and that upkeep being passed out to private traders that just doesnt seem right at all.  Traders in the main towns can be like normal traders and they can develop other types of Traders for private owners.

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I think this is an excellent idea!  Removing private traders will be painful but a necessary pain nonetheless.


 


Great decision!


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I think the best trader fix would be to get rid of them all together and have it to were you can buy there items from the wurm shop or from a deed token. Than everyone no matter where they are will have access to the trader items. And in turn bring more positive income into code club for more staff and development.


 


Being able to recycle spent coin by trader draining is a negative game mechanic imo that reduces revenues and slows game development.


 


And for the people that will flame me and say trader draining helps the wurm economy I say a true player driven economy does not benefit from trader draining. But I can see how your personal wallet does benefit from it :P


 


 


Rolf A+ on the deed stakes they are the 1st step towards a long road ahead on taking wurm to a larger player base and forward into the future. I can't wait to see what comes next. :)

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If they half upkeep then maybe i would agree on just no traders at all but the game gets expensive with premium, upkeeps and any alts you want. I have given a suggestion to make them just an offset and not a money grab earlier so i won't get into that again but cheaper upkeep or a manageable offset is needed..imo


Edited by Kegan
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Halve the upkeep.  That's the win in my book.


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Deed stakes rock. I would never plant 3 deeds with forms on Xanadu... stakes just dragged me into that :D

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Half upkeep and cheaper premium but remove trader, that would work. Just removing will make this game way too expensive. 


 


After some half year of dedicated wurm playing you will never be satisfied with just one char and one deed. You need a priest or three and probably at least a couple of deeds, maybe one or two on freedom and one on epic. Traders has made this possible to achieve without paying too much. But without traders it will be just too much.


 


For me it would mean 2-3 premium accounts + 15s a month deed upkeep. Those 15s deed upkeep would be too much. Even 2-3 prem accounts is too much. A year ago this game was fairly inexpensive, with much better trader yield and only half the premium cost. But now with the higher prem cost the game is already far from cheap.


 


You can't just continue up the prices if you want us to keep playing.  


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I don't think there is enough redistributing wealth to reduce upkeep by half.


 


I'm pretty sure Code Club's financial model heavily depends on upkeep.


 


I'm guessing that the redistribution wealth was never intended to pay deed upkeep or premium. It would make sense if the goal was to put more money in more people hands (especially so of people who wouldn't have silver otherwise) so those people can buy things from other people. The value of creating interaction among players might be more valuable than letting people pay 2 or 3 silver less a month on upkeep.


 


I've heard it said that players can add value to a game even when they can't pay the full sticker price. Redistributing wealth can help keep some of these people around.


 


Trouble is redistributing wealth all ends up in the hands of elites and vets. They then use it to play for free (premium from token and upkeep) which I'm guilty of doing myself, use it to expand their elite empires, or even sell it for real life Euro.


 


I like...


1. give the most coin to traders who interact with more unique premium toons. A locked up trader interacting with a couple players will get horribly low distributions.


2. limit how much money a single toon can take from a trader. This limit should be higher for trader with higher ratio.


3. its a bit harsh but limiting coin draining to premium toon is the only way to count the F2P-alt-army practice. 


 


 


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Love it.  Let's keep just the 9 starter traders.  If people want to camp them or whatever, so be it.  I'd rather be out in the beautiful countryside, enjoying the game and not watching the region fill with tiny trader deeds.


 


+1 !!!


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the only thing I don't like about the trader restriction on xanadu is that trader mechanics themselves have to changed. it is still the same amount of coin just going to fewer traders.

50 traders each get 2% of total server coin, instead of 200 traders getting 0.5% of the servers coin.

that one well prepared person will make a killing on one camped trader. I would rather have seen a limit put in place the same manner as selling to a token limits your income.trader will still get drained but it would take longer, more effort through alts and give a chance for another to grab some coin too.

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yeah I think players shouldn't be able to get silvers from traders period, if you're going to limit them to starting towns only.

Everyone is missing out on something, in this or any other world but to wave it in our faces, alot of people will be camping the starter traders and alot of people will be wishing they did.
If i wanted to sacrifice fun for capital, i'd be a lawyer or a marketer, or one of those players that tire of the game and choose to make tons of money and p*** people off by being a total douche.

Xanadu will be a great home for wholesalers and people with money to pour into the game for 2 subscriptions (1 char and deed upkeep).. but with traders removed and no fun in camping the perma-ones.. my deed will be small and supplemented by the single trader i have on deli.

Which is fine.. i just don't see the logic in allowing players to get silver from traders when players aren't allowed traders.

Edited by Steveleeb

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+1 for deed stakes

+1 for limiting traders

I own a trader on Indy and think these are moves in the right direction.

I like the idea put forth to make the unique items for sale by traders available from tokens.

I also agree there is the matter of the existing fixed location traders being abused.

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Finally some sense and consistency.


 


This is a medieval survival/sandbox game. If you really need something from a big city Trader you will have to go there just like in medieval times. This will encourage people to connect cities, makes it more realistic and stops the shameless exploitation that happened for years on other servers. Yes, trader milking is an exploit or "game mechanic [tm]" that should not exist in the first place. There is no need for player owned traders.


 


This will improve the game.

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If you limit traders like this, why not remove draining all together? 


 


Remove all ways of earning silver on Xanadu, except player trades and then lower upkeep costs considerably. 


 


Ok, people could then keep traders on other servers, but since it so much cheaper to live on Xanadu I guess people will start migrating there and thus the trader return on other servers will slowly decline towards zero. 


 


Epic, I don't know. The trader system works a bit better there since you can't just spit out trader deeds all over because they would get raided unless you really spend time building defenses. Split bank between Epic and Freedom?


 


 


Just ideas... this situation is not easy,since the trader system is already in place and a huge part of the economy. 


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Since the remove trader crowd is getting vocal again, here is what I think. I took a 1.5 month break during all the Xanadu drama and the state of limbo it caused on Release, but I will say this: If I hadn't had traders I wouldn't have returned.


 


The facts:


Currently I have 4 premium characters paid for by the Wurm store (one of them recently renewed for a year during my break): a general build character, a main vyn priest, a vyn battery and a mag priest. All of the money I make with them (not that much and even less after Xanadu opening up... I made about 1g with trading in 1.5 years of playing) goes towards buying bricks and armour/weapons and goes back into the player economy.


 


The traders I have pay for the upkeep of the deeds with 2-4s a month left over before Xanadu opened up. The leftover amount also goes back into the player economy (more bricks...can never have enough bricks). The upkeep for the deeds I have is 22s a month including guards (not counting the 2 deeds I inherited recently from someone who quit as I'm not certain on the upkeep amount there but since they both have a trader on it I assume they balance out). Now if traders were to be changed, given zero revenue due to migration to Xanadu or even removed on Release (not that I'm saying they will be!) I would have two options, well three really: 


 


1. I quit altogether, selling off my chars and deeds and traders (if they still exist) to people who may well shrink the deeds to reduce upkeep and/or use ingame coin to pay for the chars instead of money bought from the Wurm store. The silver I make that way would be converted back to RL money to recoup a small part of the money I spent on the game which means people buying silver from me instead of the Wurm store. 


 


2. Cut back on the amount and size of deeds. Well, I play Wurm for the building and terraforming, the rest doesn't interest me that much to be honest. One small deed just won't cut it for my playstyle, which is what I would be able to afford if I were to only use silver bought from the store..I would be cutting back on the amount of premium chars then as well because Wurm would be too expensive and not nearly as interesting to me anymore. This would also mean a revenue loss for the Wurm store.


 


3. Rob a bank and pay for the chars and deeds with money from the store. Not sure how well I like prison, can you play Wurm there? Yeah, not doing that.


 


So yeah if the traders on Release are to be messed with in the future for me there would at the very least need to be a drastic reduction (90%!) in upkeep to make up for it if that's even possible. I don't see that happening.


 


Now I'm not saying that me leaving would have much of an impact on Wurm, I very much doubt it, but I can hardly be the only one in this situation now can I?

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about traders as i tell before...   


 


1. income of traders atlast 80% into upkeep of deeds....


 


2. allow control of reset rates only to premium members...


 


3. Since traders dont get much  could be cheeper


 


4. limit them to 5s max income per reset


 


5. at atlast 0.1 rate keep em at same income no mether what...


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Since the remove trader crowd is getting vocal again, here is what I think. I took a 1.5 month break during all the Xanadu drama and the state of limbo it caused on Release, but I will say this: If I hadn't had traders I wouldn't have returned.

 

The facts:

Currently I have 4 premium characters paid for by the Wurm store (one of them recently renewed for a year during my break): a general build character, a main vyn priest, a vyn battery and a mag priest. All of the money I make with them (not that much and even less after Xanadu opening up... I made about 1g with trading in 1.5 years of playing) goes towards buying bricks and armour/weapons and goes back into the player economy.

 

The traders I have pay for the upkeep of the deeds with 2-4s a month left over before Xanadu opened up. The leftover amount also goes back into the player economy (more bricks...can never have enough bricks). The upkeep for the deeds I have is 22s a month including guards (not counting the 2 deeds I inherited recently from someone who quit as I'm not certain on the upkeep amount there but since they both have a trader on it I assume they balance out). Now if traders were to be changed, given zero revenue due to migration to Xanadu or even removed on Release (not that I'm saying they will be!) I would have two options, well three really: 

 

1. I quit altogether, selling off my chars and deeds and traders (if they still exist) to people who may well shrink the deeds to reduce upkeep and/or use ingame coin to pay for the chars instead of money bought from the Wurm store. The silver I make that way would be converted back to RL money to recoup a small part of the money I spent on the game which means people buying silver from me instead of the Wurm store. 

 

2. Cut back on the amount and size of deeds. Well, I play Wurm for the building and terraforming, the rest doesn't interest me that much to be honest. One small deed just won't cut it for my playstyle, which is what I would be able to afford if I were to only use silver bought from the store..I would be cutting back on the amount of premium chars then as well because Wurm would be too expensive and not nearly as interesting to me anymore. This would also mean a revenue loss for the Wurm store.

 

3. Rob a bank and pay for the chars and deeds with money from the store. Not sure how well I like prison, can you play Wurm there? Yeah, not doing that.

 

So yeah if the traders on Release are to be messed with in the future for me there would at the very least need to be a drastic reduction (90%!) in upkeep to make up for it if that's even possible. I don't see that happening.

 

Now I'm not saying that me leaving would have much of an impact on Wurm, I very much doubt it, but I can hardly be the only one in this situation now can I?

 

The entitlement in this post is beyond ridiculous.

 

No one needs multiple huge deeds that cost 22s upkeep and if you think you do need them then you pay for it with money in the store not with the silver of smaller deed owners and new players. People like you are the main problem even the small servers feel completely empty. Massive deeds everywhere with no people living there. Ghost towns owned by a few veterans that milk their traders every month to keep paying for their massive ghost towns.

 

This game needs some drastic changes to make it more social and engaging:

 

1. Encourage players to build bigger cities and create communities.

2. Stop the trader milking once and for all. A single person does not need multiple huge deeds all paid for by the rest of the server.

3. Stimulate a player economy by giving rewards and incentives to people that actually socialize and trade.

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Did you miss the part where I wrote that I'm already paying for four premium chars with store money? And that I play because I like terraforming deeds? Nawww


 


Oh and I paid for the traders with store money too, and the placing the deeds...how is that using money from smaller deed owners...really.


 


Regarding the deeds being ghost towns..they aren't, I'm in an alliance and alliance members are free to come work on their woodcutting, using the mines. I'm always busy building and terraforming there, well before my break, so ghost towns they aren't. Did you also miss the part where I said all the leftover money goes back into the economy, there's trading and socializing for you. Seriously why all the venom and hatred.


Edited by Terpsichore
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I think we need to support all playing styles, if someone can provide the manpower and commitment needed to run a city, then let them have a city. 

I think there's nothing wrong with using traders for upkeep most especially if the traders are on-deed or perimeter.
 

If it was impossible to get silver from traders, if the upkeep tax was set to 100%, it would solve alot of abuse.

The problem is of course, trader citizenship doesn't work, my single trader is on my perimeter, i bought it off someone and disbanded their trader deed.
There would have to be another way of linking it with your deed.. which can't be hard to code.

This way, those that can only afford the subscriptions they pay... need not worry about the added `subscription` that upkeep demands on Xanadu.
 

Edited by Steveleeb
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Did you miss the part where I wrote that I'm already paying for four premium chars with store money? And that I play because I like terraforming deeds? Nawww

 

Oh and I paid for the traders with store money too, and the placing the deeds...how is that using money from smaller deed owners...really.

 

Regarding the deeds being ghost towns..they aren't, I'm in an alliance and alliance members are free to come work on their woodcutting, using the mines. I'm always busy building and terraforming there, well before my break, so ghost towns they aren't. Did you also miss the part where I said all the leftover money goes back into the economy, there's trading and socializing for you. Seriously why all the venom and hatred.

 

How many citizens do you have in your 22s upkeep deeds? I mean REAL citizens that live there and play the game, have fun in a community. For 22s you can get a 50x50 deed with 2 guards. That is a staggering size and the only person really using it is you by milking traders.

 

This game needs community not individuals sitting on huge parts of the land.

 

I am not denying you whatever play style you prefer, just stay on the server you are currently on. No need to swarm Xanadu like locust consuming everything with your multiple alts and big coffers of silver.

 

Xanadu is great opportunity to make a new set of rules and change the way the game is played because one thing is pretty clear:

 

The current way the servers are set up is not working as the game is not able to get new players to stay and it's slowly choking under the stranglehold of a few veterans.

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You make it sound as if land for deeds is rare. The area I'm in on Release has lots more room for more deeds, took a bit of work to make my deeds habitable but hey I like terraforming, apparently others don't as the area I'm currently deeding has been empty and untouched for -well over 6 months-. Had to make a couple of tunnels down the cliff side to get access to the ocean but that's fine with me.


 


You say you aren't denying me my play style but that's exactly what you're doing. I have zero interest in Xanadu, I will never set foot there. If rich people go there like 'locusts' as you call it it seems you have an issue with people on Xanadu where the traders have already been changed, huh. From what I understand there isn't a lack of room on Xanadu either but ok.

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There is no lack of free land in Wurm. I do agree that empty deeds with just a trader isn't very nice, but those deeds are mostly not coastal and coastal areas are the only places where it is a bit harder to find a spot of land to deed. 


 


Skyrant, your attitude is just bad, you should never tell people where they can play and how. The reason for this game not attracting more players can not be blamed on the players, veterans or new. It's all about the game features and design. Players in this game are most of the time extremly mature, intelligent and generally nice compared to other games. 


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