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joedobo

Xanadu traders

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Distributions should be proportional to the number of unique premium toon.


Tally total number of unique premium toon to interact with all traders. Divided a distribution by that total to get an individual share. Each trader gets a number of shares equal its unique premium toon count. I don't want to see a system where a trader with larger unique unique premium toon count get disproportionately more payout.


 


unique premium toon increment should only require a coin drain.


Public traders will suffer if the unique ratio requires that toons must buy items. I run two public traders on Deli (Ymora, Yicujo).


They both have taxation set so I can tell when toons buy things by looking at upkeep. I have seen some buy actions at Ymora but for the most part coin is only drained.


 


 


 


Edit:  Had to clarify that I didn't mean "unique players", but instead unique premium toons. Sorry bad wording. 


Edited by joedobo

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Trader payouts should also be tied to Deed Size and upkeep paid monthly. Matter of fact make it so only people who have Traders pay into the kings upkeep used for Traders and then use the other upkeep from non Trader Deeds to make other ways in the game for players to gain coin from the king.


 


Small Trader deed would get far  less payout than a Large Trader deed who pays in more upkeep.


 


Using that with the Idea of how much stuff the Trader sells and How many people use the trader would definitely stop the 1s trader deeds fro being planted all over the server wasting land.


 


Heck you could even have Trader Contracts have a Maximum payout in its life time to stop players from planting mutliples and using the game forever.


 


The one thing I never Liked was the Fact other peoples Deed Upkeep being used to keep Trader Deeds alive and running while they profit endlessly from it.  If there was some way to remove this bonus from other players Deeds who do not have traders that would help as well.


 


Also how about getting rid of the kick back for buying Trader from Traders once and for all???


 


They do not cost 50s, but actually like 38s and the rest get put back so they can drain it.  remove the kickback completely.


 


Another thing people do is use just one type of item to drain and feed Traders you could base it on all the items in the game and the amount of items those traders get as to how the pay out system works.


 


Trader is in a locked area??? no payout....locked house?? no payout......Or make them not usable in a house period.


 


Develop other ways to enhance the game with the Kings Payout instead of Traders......that all players can do that compete with the funds given out and end this private funds given to Traders.


 


There are many ways to end the trader deed exploit you just have to take a step to do it and make a commitment.


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Just make it more complicated and random, and change the rules every now and then. Us Wurmians love challenges :P


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I believe traders are supposed to be about people being drawn to them. Thus, its about lots of people interactions, not about how big the deed is where the trader is located. I understand that bigger deeds pay more into the recirculation fund.


 


As to finding other ways to redistribute recirculation wealth ... one I like is to reduced minimum upkeep to 50c and included with premium a 50c credit applicable towards village upkeep. This will let anyone with premium get a small deed.


 


edit... the 50c is a special currency only usable for village upkeep. Could call it a upkeep token.


Edited by joedobo

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Just make it more complicated and random, and change the rules every now and then. Us Wurmians love challenges :P

Which leeds elitists farming the most from trader. It also leads to arguing and general hate amongst the community when things are disclosed. If you want proof look at how things have gone with explaining the ratio. at one point people got really upset when others disclosed the mechanics.

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I am sure by now they already have a system in place but the best way to stop empty trader deeds is to have it not only a deed member but also trading on behalf of a player. If this player is not premium when the funds are distributed then they don't get any coins. (only one trader per person) Now you can couple this with Protunia's idea of deed size if you like but this is the only way to stop the empty trader deeds. 


 


Anyway i am sure they already have a system in place or being worked on so lets hope it is not a bad one. I guess i will be buying one at least to get any trader items from when i need them. 


 


Edit: wanted to address the only thing i can think that implementing this idea on all servers would be. I guess there would need to be a period of time when traders that are placed now get packed up and a new form be given to the deeds mayor. This way they can reset them under the new system or sell them off if they no longer want them...well i am sure they can figure it all out, lol


Edited by Kegan
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I am sure by now they already have a system in place but the best way to stop empty trader deeds is to have it not only a deed member but also trading on behalf of a player. If this player is not premium when the the funds are distributed then they don't get any coins. (only one trader per person) Now you can couple this with Protunia's idea of deed size if you like but this is the only way to stop the empty trader deeds. 

 

Anyway i am sure they already have a system in place or being worked on so lets hope it is not a bad one. I guess i will be buying one at least to get any trader items from when i need them. 

It doesn't hurt to point out potential flaws or to ask for potential mechanics. The point of this form is to make suggestions.

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It doesn't hurt to point out potential flaws or to ask for potential mechanics. The point of this form is to make suggestions.

I must admit i am a new forum post lurker watching the in the top right section so i did not know this was in suggestions, lol

 

Anyway yea i have added my ideas to the mix. :)

Edited by Kegan

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Traders are a tricky situation.  In a way, it is a pyramid scheme.  Pretty shady system.  the top of pyramid is Rolf.  He sells you a trader and promises you will make money off it, if more people spend money, such as buying more traders.  You tell your friends about this cool system, sell them traders from your trader, make some cash and on it spreads... until the pyramid stops growing, then the system falls apart. 


 


Traders are a mechanic for Rolf to get loans from us, his player base.  We pay him now and over time, he pays back, with interest.  First ones to give him the loan are the ones to get ROI the fastest.  Last ones in the game are likely never going to recover their investment.


 


Does he really want to eliminate lots of small trader deeds?  I doubt it.  Each trader deed is 60s (deed plus trader) or less if you buy from your own trader.  Huge infusion of cash up front for him.  There must be at least 500 players fully intent on reaping the early "big money" from traders on Xanadu.  Just look at how active forums are with rares, supremes, deed and accounts.  Stock up on cash for trader deeds.  at 6x the price of a starter deed alone, this is what starting a new server is all about.


 


Rolf gets to determine how much the "king" is willing to pay back each month, with with full control in his hands and a crap load of cash up front from us, I can't see any incentive for him to reduce how many traders get placed


 


I think this is why we always get such completely vague answers from them on how traders are going to be changed or fixed.


 


Why is Xanadu so large?  Lots of room for trader deeds ;)


 


I think if we took out the 25% kickback to trader owner, for selling a trader contract, that 12.5s gain to Rolf ends up being more than the cost of a starter deed, so how about we make a swap Rolf?  What if you make trader deed holders be required to stay premium for the trader to be active?  Prem lapses and trader vanishes, allowing someone else to drop a trader near by?

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Traders are a tricky situation.  In a way, it is a pyramid scheme.  Pretty shady system.  the top of pyramid is Rolf.  He sells you a trader and promises you will make money off it, if more people spend money, such as buying more traders.  You tell your friends about this cool system, sell them traders from your trader, make some cash and on it spreads... until the pyramid stops growing, then the system falls apart. 

 

Traders are a mechanic for Rolf to get loans from us, his player base.  We pay him now and over time, he pays back, with interest.  First ones to give him the loan are the ones to get ROI the fastest.  Last ones in the game are likely never going to recover their investment.

 

Does he really want to eliminate lots of small trader deeds?  I doubt it.  Each trader deed is 60s (deed plus trader) or less if you buy from your own trader.  Huge infusion of cash up front for him.  There must be at least 500 players fully intent on reaping the early "big money" from traders on Xanadu.  Just look at how active forums are with rares, supremes, deed and accounts.  Stock up on cash for trader deeds.  at 6x the price of a starter deed alone, this is what starting a new server is all about.

 

Rolf gets to determine how much the "king" is willing to pay back each month, with with full control in his hands and a crap load of cash up front from us, I can't see any incentive for him to reduce how many traders get placed

 

I think this is why we always get such completely vague answers from them on how traders are going to be changed or fixed.

 

Why is Xanadu so large?  Lots of room for trader deeds ;)

 

I think if we took out the 25% kickback to trader owner, for selling a trader contract, that 12.5s gain to Rolf ends up being more than the cost of a starter deed, so how about we make a swap Rolf?  What if you make trader deed holders be required to stay premium for the trader to be active?  Prem lapses and trader vanishes, allowing someone else to drop a trader near by?

 

 

The problem is most of the time its coin that has already been bought that uis used to soak the new players spending real cash into the games funds.

 

So its a cycle that encourages more and more traders for those who are greedy enough at no RL cost at all.

 

The RL money is pulled from the newer players and those the spend RL on the game without giving anything at all back to them through their deeds upkeep and other things they pay for at the Traders.

 

The whole Trader exploit might hurt some players when fixed but in the long run it will be better for the game if they are fixed and that coin put to better use for all the players not just those who choose to exploit this system.

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Trying to label or describe existent Traders will just lead to an argument. Everyone has their own opinion of what it all is. Mine is that traders are free money trees and the recirculating wealth system represent lost opportunities for Code Club to earn revenue.


 


Protunia is correct that the methods used to redistribute wealth (currently that's traders) need to be systems that can't meta-gamed by the few. This is a core point to my OP that I didn't want traders with large unique player counts geting disproportionately large payouts. The difference between a trader with one unique toon versus another trader with 20 unique toons should be 1:20 ratio in the payouts. Knowing Wurm I fear that 20 unique toon trader will get exponential growth payouts...like 1:100 ratio or bigger, I'm >GUESSING< here.


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Protunia is correct that the methods used to redistribute wealth (currently that's traders) need to be systems that can't meta-gamed by the few. This is a core point to my OP that I didn't want traders with large unique player counts geting disproportionately large payouts. The difference between a trader with one unique toon versus another trader with 20 unique toons should be 1:20 ratio in the payouts. Knowing Wurm I fear that 20 unique toon trader will get exponential growth payouts...like 1:100 ratio or bigger, I'm >GUESSING< here.

I don't think that is an answer either seems like another way for large alliances to prosper while the solo hermit guys are left out and it does not address the issue with all the empty trader deeds.

 

 Thats why i say it has to be premium only payouts to keep players from making deeds with just a trader and never doing anything with it. I know i had 20 traders and never seen most deeds but once a month but if i had to pay premium for each character to have 20 it would not work and be profitable.  

 

With this new system you can expand the token sales some i guess to help new players but it would stop having 10-20 traders owned by one person. Sure there are players with 2-3 paid alts that they use for priest..etc that can have traders but no one is going to pay for premium for just a trader alt so it will limit the number people will be willing to have. Also the 10s for premium for the trader holder will offset the payout the trader is giving so it will not be as large of an amount. I just don't really see anything bad under this suggested system other than the changeover period if it was cast on the existing traders as well and it would about have to be. 

 

Edit: Lets use an example now if i was to set up a 1s trader deed and say it pays 8s a month back. I would profit 7s off this deed but if i had to pay premium for the alt/trader contract holder then the amount of the trader income would not even cover the premium so there would be no need to have it. Now if i was already paying premium on a character and using them as a priest lets say then it would be a much cheaper priest than i was using before. 

 

In this new system the trader radius would be lifted and i could set as many on a deed as i like too..but that is not a must just something that no longer becomes an issue. 

Edited by Kegan
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@ Kegan 


I don't think empty deeds are an issue, trader present or not. The land is being payed for either way. The only issue is how to put the recirculation wealth in the hands of the many instead of the few who know how to meta-game the system. And to stop the trend of locking up trader for ones own personal benefit.


 


In my posts I'm talking about Xan's trader scheme (as I understand it). A trader's ratio (the new ratio system) will go up as more premium unique toons buy and sell to it.


 


I don't know exactly how the unique toon ratio will work but if its truly proportional then Alliance aren't going to prosper anymore then the solo guy. A solo guy with one trader gets 50c, an alliance with 20 people gets 10s (50c per a person).


 


Its hard to say what payouts will be for solo players on Xan but I'm guessing they will be very small < 1s likely. There are going to be markets where public traders have unique toon ratios > 100. Thats 100 times more payout going to such a trader then solo guy's locked up personal trader.


 


If I understand the system you're describing...


1. a trader has to be on a deed to receive payouts. Otherwise you could put them in perimeter, on undeeded land sandwiched between alt controlled deeds.


2. The mayor of the deed has to be premium to receive payouts.


 


This will reduce the number of traders out there. But It won't encourage people to open up the trader. Nor will it encourage people to attracted more and more people around to use it. It doesn't seem to change the meta-gaming mindset. I also don't like the "more limitation" way of solving a problem. Its a better idea to identify where the problem is (locking up traders for ones own benefit) and change them so most money is sent to traders being used positively (a public trader that lots of people using it)


 


 


Wow, just realised something kinda sad. For Xan's system, it will be the premium players who cause a trader to get more money. For public traders it will be the f2p alts camping it all day who get the coin... :(


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Wow, just realised something kinda sad. For Xan's system, it will be the premium players who cause a trader to get more money. For public traders it will be the f2p alts camping it all day who get the coin... :(

 

 

Unless they limit players like they do with the token bit from draining all the coin at once.

 

You could use the same system of limits to people draining an amount per day and overall.

 

Sure it would be easier if you had more players, but it would end complete draining all at once by one player.

 

If you used this type of thing with some of the other things mentioned you could end the Trader System as we now know it and actually make one that give more players coin.

Edited by Protunia

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Bump to fixing the Traders once and for all before Xanadu is opened.


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Distributions should be equal to the number of unique players.

Tally total number of unique players to interact with all traders. Divided a distribution by that total to get an individual share. Each trader gets a number of shares equal its unique player count. I don't want to see a system where a trader with larger unique player counts get disproportionately more payout.

 

Unique player increment should only require a coin drain.

Public traders will suffer if the unique ratio requires that players must buy items. I run two public traders on Deli (Ymora, Yicujo).

They both have taxation set so I can tell when people buy things by looking at upkeep. I have seen some buy actions at Ymora but for the most part people only drain coin.

Thats basically impossible to tally, unique players. You can tally individual characters, which is their plan.

 

IP: Proxies

Mac Adress: Lemme grab my laptop, not to mention you can mask it.

e-mail: LOL

 

Everything Protuina said is rubbish.

Forcing Public traders is crap, it would basically cripple the traders, since everyone knows what happens to public traders. If they were for free, or even 10s, i could see myself dropping them public like mad. But with them sharing the sell pool, and costing 50s, having a 5s payout, making traders public at least before a good 10 months draining is basically giving away your silver.

 

Ignorance is bliss, like i always say, people are so pent up on their "traditional" hate of traders they don't even realize they're nerfed to a fraction of their past worth. Sure there was a past when people boasted netting 20+s a month. I've had a trader for a couple years now, and only time i net that is when i buy stuff like other trader contracts or magic chests from it (a part of the money stays in the trader), a year ago, it was around 10s, nowadays most people are reporting a 5s turn out. For a 50s investiment.

A guy with 2 characters draining the 5c every hour for 4 hours daily for a month will make twice the money you make from the average trader nowadays. Add a third alt, that's 3 times, 4th alt, 4 times a trader, etc, etc. And that's 4 hours, i know lots of people spending 8+h in Wurm.

And making those 5c? Not that hard, any priest grinding SD has more than enough (if using meals) to get there, i tried dumping 1 forge worth in sell (that's 100, i don't like backpacks, muddles my rythm) got to the limit in about 60. Most ppl fill 1000. That's 80+ copper a day for people doing that. And it works with bow string from ropemaking grind, CORPSES and pelts from hunting. Veggies (don't even have to cook them).

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Forcing Public traders is crap

 

They were never meant to be private. Whatever solution Rolf tries will be aimed at making them solely intended for public access.

 

Not fond of this attempt of balancing they're presenting, but that fact isn't going to change from the way I read Rolf.

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They were never meant to be private. Whatever solution Rolf tries will be aimed at making them solely intended for public access.

 

Not fond of this attempt of balancing they're presenting, but that fact isn't going to change from the way I read Rolf.

Where does it state anywhere they were never meant to be private, I may have missed it over all the years of trader bitching.

 

OT: Every trader debate ends up people complaining they dont get anything when they never buy into the system, Trader drama and Dragon drama will never end unless Wurm the game as  whole does.

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They were never meant to be private. Whatever solution Rolf tries will be aimed at making them solely intended for public access.

 

Not fond of this attempt of balancing they're presenting, but that fact isn't going to change from the way I read Rolf.

That's true. I've said that in some other thread before, even mentioned that when i started playing it was against the rules to have locked in traders, can't really keep repeating myself. Problem is with the ratio, and the cost of a trader forcing people to make them public is the same as forcing people to donate their silver to charity. If there was a method to assure that players paying 50s (that's enough for half a years premium time, basically) would get their money back with public traders, then i'm sure no one would have private traders, because there would be no need.

I mean its only beneficial to have people using it, even with the constant drains an occasional buy would at least help with upkeep through taxes, but only if either the cost was more reasonable, or if even at that cost there was a minimum allowance reserved for the trader owner.

That's what screws up the whole system, traders are insanely expensive, and there's no security for the owner, as they are today, making them private was the only way people could find to make them worthwhile.

Plus would be kind of a shot in the foot forcing people to make their current traders public, as it would force many to resigned deeds or buildings, which as fun as it may be when its your initiative, being forced to do so, is kind of something people wouldn't enjoy that much.

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Thats basically impossible to tally, unique players. You can tally individual characters, which is their plan.

 

Unique premium toons does NOT equal unique players.

 

Each trader on Xana will have a value to track how many unique premium toons buy and sell with it. The news said as traders interact with more unique premium toons it will earn a higher ratio (this ratio may or may not be different then the current one). In order to calculate a ratio, one must know the tally.

 

1. Walk the database accessing each trader .... for each trader in Xan database.

2. For each trader add that trader's unique toon value to a total ... total_unique_toon += trader_unique_count

3. Now with all traders parsed and with a total count of Unique toons tallied, divided the current coin distribution by the total to get a share value ... share = total_distribtuion / total_unique_toon

4. for each trader distribute the result of share * its unique toon count ... coin recieved = share * trader_unique_count

 

 

 

edit...the point of this thread was to try and convince that distribution should be proportional, as my example above. Its very possible they could use some exponential growth curve and give traders with higher premium counts extravagant distributions. 

Edited by joedobo

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Unique premium toons does NOT equal unique players.

I know, and what i said was that its impossible to check for unique players. You can override any possible check for that easily.

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I know, and what i said was that its impossible to check for unique players. You can override any possible check for that easily.

 

Sorry, I just now realized my words didn't match what I was thinking. I never meant to communicate unique player, for the very reasons you say. I edited the OP to say unique premium toon count.

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I only understand 10% of what's being said in this thread, but here's my 2 irons:

Shouldn't the buy/sell prices of traders reflect the actual market prices... (I don't think that they currently do) Also, Players should be able to accept a loss when trading, instead of having to make exact change with woodscraps. imho :)

thanks for making wurm great! lovin' life on Xanadu :)

Edited by Fractal618

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Remove trader draining entirely. Have them for kingdom items and goods barter only, not WurmFoodStamps free coin for lazy people. If you want money, work for it or buy it.


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What if I have a deed with 10 lazy villagers, and I want to encourage them to mine rockshards. I want to put a NPC on my deed that buys rockshards 1 iron per 1 ql per 1 kg.   So, if Henry (my laziest villager) mines 60kg of shards avg 4ql he only gets 2 copper and 40 iron.


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