Sign in to follow this  
Rolf

Enclosure rules no longer effective

Recommended Posts

Debating this appears to be pointless and regardless of the intent the result is clear. the devs are encouraging player aggresion on PVE servers.  There are no longer any printed deterents to someone making a mess of the area around someones deed.   I cannot tolerarate logging in every day to see if a mess has been made.  For 5 yrs now i have supported Wurm because it gave me a peacefull place to build, but these changes move the game in a direction I dont wish to follow.   I am going to disband 2 10x deeds, downsize 2 others to minimums, fire 3 deed guards, and cancel premium.  I will sit back and watch as a FTP,  hoping that someday Freedom returns to non aggresive.


  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh how I miss the good old days when we had Area of Control.


 


Rolf its pretty clear that there is plenty of excess land. Player's are not deeding right next to each other (or the most part anyway). You have wasted resources (game tile) which could be used to improve the Wurm experience for the players. I bet you could greatly increase your customer satisfaction opinions by shifting control of land just outside deeds into the deeds hands.


 


I bet someone will argue with me, but as I see it people simply will not deed right next to each other. This results in stretches of "no mans land" that people argue over. I think letting the paying and most affect customer(nearest deeds) have control over this land is the best choice.


 


And if deeds can't have more control letting GM's use opinions to decided "intent" is complete BS (IMO). If some dude has the right to bash/destroy/build/whatever I should have the same right. If I had my way this "griefing intent" concept would be trashed. And the GM's would be instructed that off deed is free-for-all, hands off, don't get involved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Debating this appears to be pointless and regardless of the intent the result is clear. the devs are encouraging player aggresion on PVE servers.  There are no longer any printed deterents to someone making a mess of the area around someones deed.   I cannot tolerarate logging in every day to see if a mess has been made.  For 5 yrs now i have supported Wurm because it gave me a peacefull place to build, but these changes move the game in a direction I dont wish to follow.   I am going to disband 2 10x deeds, downsize 2 others to minimums, fire 3 deed guards, and cancel premium.  I will sit back and watch as a FTP,  hoping that someday Freedom returns to non aggresive.

I'd actually say to hold off on this type of action.  Wait and see how things shake out in the next few weeks then make a decision.

 

I know I don't help things too much by pointing out parts I don't like about the changes, but I do trust the GMs, general staff and even Rolf (and if anyone tells him I said that, I'll deny it and hunt you down:P ) to do their best for the best longer term impact on the game.

 

There are just parts in what has been said so far, that I don't like and until the new policies are made official (already happenedand have been tested under fire, I'm not likely to change my opinion on those policies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone explain why a sandbox game can't have rules or mechanics to limit or outright prohibit specific behavior?  Sandbox does not need to equate to total anarchy/vigilante justice.

 

Biggest sandbox of all, life, has plenty of rules and mechanics to prohibit specific things/behavior.  If you get good at finding the loopholes, bonus points, but don't expect the "GMs" (in either game) to be kind to you when you finally get caught.

 

That's exactly my point. There's always a loophole. People were clamouring that the game should be hardcoded to prevent all griefing, but that's impossible. In fact the definition of griefing on wikipedia states it normally happens through loophole abuse.

 

You can have as many rules as you like, but you can *never* eliminate having a human there to handle loophole cases. And if you tried to make those loopholes almost non-existent, we get a themepark game (It's pretty hard to grief someone in WoW, but that game has a lot of restrictions on it).

 

I'm not against laws/rules/mechanics. In fact I am very supportive of well-designed hardcoded mechanics. But I'm very against any suggestion that we not have, or that we could ever not need, a GM like person to handle when things get out of hand.

Edited by Sevenless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's exactly my point. There's always a loophole. People were clamouring that the game should be hardcoded to prevent all griefing, but that's impossible. In fact the definition of griefing on wikipedia states it normally happens through loophole abuse.

 

You can have as many rules as you like, but you can *never* eliminate having a human there to handle loophole cases. And if you tried to make those loopholes almost non-existent, we get a themepark game (It's pretty hard to grief someone in WoW, but that game has a lot of restrictions on it).

 

I'm not against laws/rules/mechanics. In fact I am very supportive of well-designed hardcoded mechanics. But I'm very against any suggestion that we not have, or that we could ever not need, a GM like person to handle when things get out of hand.

If you're saying or implying I ever supported the removal of GMs or their ability to moderate, mind quoting a source on that?

 

What I specifically said was that hard rules provide a basis for everyone to start from (i.e. a baseline expectation) which does not remove the GM/staff's ability to moderate on a case by case basis.

 

The current loss of the enclosure rules put those who choose to play without the use of a deed in a position related to GM arbitration that is always on the "losing" side.  There is an increase in risk that every player is made aware of every time they start a new house plan off deeded tiles.  Those who choose to still do so, are still customers and still in need of at least some form of GM protection.  In this specific case, rules to deter whatever CodeClub chooses to define as "griefing".

 

If they have an enclosure, it gets bashed into and things are stolen/destroyed/etc..., that was a risk they willingly chose to accept.  Use of GM fiat to determine "intent" of the actions performed by the other player means that in two, exactly the same, processes, they have the potential to see polar opposite outcomes.

 

This does not deter "griefing", this simply means you need to be a good actor/communicator (and not be terminally brain-dead enough to admit you did it with the intent to grief) to avoid being punished for doing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok the topic advanced too quickly so TL; DR everything but about intent and grieving,


 


 


to all the GMs in here saying that they've dealt with this successfully for many years - with all due respect - according to whom, yourselves, other team members? I personally was a victim of grieving many many times in the past.and I've dealt with the whole list of GMs many many times. The only one that successfully defended us (after 5 months of grieving, mind you 5 MONTHS - btw because of the slowness of the resolve, at least 11 prem people that were playing around us quit wurm for good, they just did not want to do with the drama and the fact that no one was protecting them) was Enki. That is it. The rest of them always had excuses (we cannot prove what the person wanted with this, we cannot track this, no logs show that, we don't know what happened and so on and so forth).


 


And no one can contradict me on this because it is my first hand experience so.... what are you guys talking about? You did not solve anything, at all!


 


So yes, in fact the rule was as good as ineffective from enforcing it BUT, the psychological impact wasn't. Let me explain: for the 'generally good intended people' the rule was effective as even if they saw the animals in pen X they would have not destroyed the wall to get them, but for the people 'with malevolence' the rule never mattered, they just needed to do it so they are not caught. Now with the rule removed both categories of people will just go ahead and get those animals given enough motivation. Basically, you removed something that wasn't working and replaced it with nothing, making things worse as now people are free to bash and steal everything (btw. that's another laughable rule, stealing is not allowed on freedom - ROFL).


 


Basically, the rules do not try to protect the poor guy that everyone has a quarrel with but the guys breaking in. Because until an intent is proven (and even afterwards) the poor guy has to repair the fences/replace the animals/crops/trees, so he is always in the situation to work more because the rules do not protect civilized people but the aggressors.


 


Ill also provide you with a short version of the above:


 


Attacker A, Defender X


 


Case 1


 


  • A has a malevolent intent and breaks in
  • He is not identified, logs do not show him
  • Resolve: player X needs to repair the damages, face the mental stress and move on

Case 2


 


  • A has is 'not trying to grief' and breaks in
  • He is not identified, logs do not show him
  • Resolve: player X needs to repair the damages, face the mental stress and move on

Case 3


 


  • A has a malevolent intent and breaks in
  • He is identified but because of his lying skills he does not get in trouble
  • Resolve: player X needs to repair the damages, face the mental stress and move on

Case 4


 


  • A has a malevolent intent and breaks in
  • He is identified and gets in trouble for it (explaining to him why this is not good, pointing out the rules, warnings, whatever)
  • Resolve: player X needs to repair the damages, face the mental stress and move on

Case 5


 


  • A has is 'not trying to grief' and breaks in
  • He is identified, but because of his genuine non grieving approach he does not get in trouble
  • Resolve: player X needs to repair the damages, face the mental stress and move on

 


Question: what does it matter if the aggressor gets in trouble or not, it's not like the defender gets anything from it...only stress, nerves and the victim feeling....lol. As you can see with the above cases, the rules do not do anything to protect the good in people, but the bad in them. And because of that, there will always be a door open for grieving.


Edited by Thorakkanath
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Thorakkanath


 


I start to feel that you are trying to make an issue out of nothing.


 


In the past few days/weeks, the GMs has clearly inferred that anything outside deed is fair game, and unless one's malicious intent is proven, its basically fair game for everyone to do anything (allowed by game mechanics), unless it blocks access to a deed or destroys a highway, landmark, or anything expressly protected.


 


That also means people are free to make all kinds of molehills or such around a deed as long as the deed isn't blocked off.


 


 


If someone feels that they have the right to dictate everything happening around their deed like a king, and when their "minions" do not act as they would have liked they would have to "face the mental stress", I suggest the right way is to head for the psychiatrist.


Edited by evilcherry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its basically fair game for everyone to do anything (allowed by game mechanics).

 

That is the problem! If you applied that logic in real life (if I can do something, that means I'm allowed to), how fast do you think you would end up in jail?

 

What about common sense? The right to property and the results of your labor? The rule that your liberty ends where the liberty of another starts?

 

Why are griefers free to do anything with the things others create just because it's not on a deed (many times because it is simply impossible to deed those specific tiles)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about common sense? The right to property and the results of your labor? The rule that your liberty ends where the liberty of another starts?

 

Why are griefers free to do anything with the things others create just because it's not on a deed (many times because it is simply impossible to deed those specific tiles)?

 

Why.

 

IRL, people need to apply for a governmental permit in order to dig up the land, cut down trees, to mine up rocks or ores. Should we say by common sense we should only be allowed to dig on our own deed?

 

I start to think that unless they block off your access it is by definition not griefing.

Edited by evilcherry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why.

 

IRL, people need to apply for a governmental permit in order to dig up the land, cut down trees, to mine up rocks or ores. Should we say by common sense we should only be allowed to dig on our own deed?

 

I start to think that unless they block off your access it is by definition not griefing.

 

I don't know what third world despot hell-hole ye live in friend, but where I live I don't need to get permission from anyone to dig up my land, cut down my trees, or do anything else. Nor would I, even if someone told me I had to. I pay for my land, I do what I want with it. As long as I'm not tainting my neighbor's water by my actions, whatever they may be, it's no one's business. Your freedom ends where another's begins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know what third world despot hell-hole ye live in friend, but where I live I don't need to get permission from anyone to dig up my land, cut down my trees, or do anything else. Nor would I, even if someone told me I had to. I pay for my land, I do what I want with it. As long as I'm not tainting my neighbor's water by my actions, whatever they may be, it's no one's business. Your freedom ends where another's begins.

 

You've obviously never lived in a gated community (nor have I).

 

The stiffs tell you what to do concerning everything about your yard, when to water it, what it can look like, etc, etc and issue infractions if you break any of the community rules -- they even have lame dudes on golf carts go around and harass people if their garage door is up or if their yard/parking breaks the rules or anything.

"Home Owners Association" is what it is called, what a load of crap.

Edited by Seikitai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know what third world despot hell-hole ye live in friend, but where I live I don't need to get permission from anyone to dig up my land, cut down my trees, or do anything else. Nor would I, even if someone told me I had to. I pay for my land, I do what I want with it. As long as I'm not tainting my neighbor's water by my actions, whatever they may be, it's no one's business. Your freedom ends where another's begins.

You said "MY land".

 

And when did you pay for enclosures?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this