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tobaul

Just what exactly is griefing now ?

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Kyr, Seara said PAID for ones, which would be over the normal 5, that you CAN expand into if you have. iE: you have 7, so two paid for, you could remove those two and expand your deed two tiles.

Edited by Druidnature
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Kyr, Seara said PAID for ones, which would be over the normal 5, that you CAN expand into if you have. iE: you have 7, so two paid for, you could remove those two and expand your deed two tiles.

I am well aware of that. I know the deed system Druid.

 

Where I come from if you get something automatically with a product when you buy it, you are paying for that extra thing. The cost is contained within the price of the original item. Same with perimeter tiles of Deeds. When we plant/buy a deed we are by default also purchasing the perimeter tiles, for those perimeter tiles do not exist until we by the deed. That links the existence of the perimeter tiles to the deed, not the gameworld itself. Maybe that's why some deed owners see perimeter tiles as "owned land"? I think so. That's how the people where I live in real life would view this game mechanic if they played Wurm.... I know what the rules say but the rules don't make much sense to me honestly, they never have with perimeter tiles. I see all perimeter tiles as paid for and when I have had conversations with others in Wurm sometimes others say the view it as the same.

 

The game, nor the Players, NEED 5 tiles on each deed for a "road". One tile is enough of a buffer in most cases. It's time the perimeter tiles be usable for expansions without generating new ones. All the game and the Players need is 1 tile on the outside of each deed. Let the deed owners expand their deeds out 4 tiles if they choose to spend the money to do so, and allow the deed owners to expand on one, two, three, or all sides if they choose to do so.

 

We NEED as deed owners the ability to expand our deed in any direction we choose, to utilize at least 4 or the 5 perimeter tiles, for expansion.... and of course to be able to purchase more perimeter tiles as we already can do. To me it seems the deed system is only 75% finished, like a feature that got pushed into the game, but wasn't done yet.

 

Then and ONLY THEN in my mind will the statement "perimeter tiles are for expansion" be believable. Until they change it I will continue to tell new players that the perimeter tiles are just government owned land, like a road easement, and I think myself that is a terrible reminder of real life stupid crap we have to deal with. Some Players come to Wurm to get away from that garbage, to interact in a world without 50,000 stupid laws, and the perimeter rule in my view is a stupid rule reminding us of the real ones.

Edited by Kyrmius
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There is only 2 ways to go. You either have no rules or you have a clear set of rules with no room for interpretation. If there are not any rules then there is no grieving as having no rules means nothing is disallowed period end of discussion. Having no rules and having a human being interpret other human beings "intent" in the stead of clear rules is a recipe for disaster. If I don't like the answer I get from 1 Gm I just wait a bit and call another and get a whole different interpretation. While the enclosure rule has flaws the one thing I can at least say it was one of the few black and white rules this game has had. Any Gm or player could look at it and say yep it was a enclosure or nope it wasn't.


 


Its a shame we couldn't just add a starter deed with a new toon that is only 5x5, lasts 2 weeks unless you convert it with silver into a regular deed and cant be placed within 50 tiles of any deeds perimeter. This will provide a trial basis safety net for new users, force them to space out a bit from other deeds to help prevent grumpy neighbor syndrome and also keep their deed far enough out to prevent using them to grief other players. Also make it so you only can redeem 1 starter deed per PC. Yes I have seen other games use a similar feature by limiting 1 free account per PC. I assume they write some obscure code into the registry somewhere that cant be searched by game name but the client checks it on startup. But yeah I know someone would still be creative on grieving with it.


 


I would like these three things for deeds myself. The option to deed all but 1 tile of perimeter as I do realize that cant have 2 deeds butted up against each other without a buffer because you cant share a tile border and this would still provide a 2 tile buffer between deeds. The option to resize in one direction. The option to move the token in any direction(up to say 10 tiles and add a several month cool down on it) without disbanding to help adjust for expansion.

Edited by Evilvision
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I don't want to see Wurm becoming a game that's increasingly hostile to newer players.  Populated by a small, veteran playerbase who cares only for preserving their advantage at all costs.


 


if anyone has played Eve Online, you know exactly what I'm talking about.


 


Bashing enclosures that you didn't build is griefing, regardless of what rules say.  Stealing things that aren't yours, is griefing.  Acting out to harm or troll another player for no other reason, is griefing.

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Ahh, I see your point now. I just thought you didn't realize what was said correctly :P

While I do agree, I also like the 5 free perim - it keeps people from screwing things up RIGHT ontop of me. Though I have to say, I still usually get 10-15 ontop of that to prevent people from being anywhere near my deed.

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I myself was a fan of the old system. With the no build zone for 50 tiles around the deed. It also kept people from piling up and making a wilderness game into a suburban game arguing over property lines. Just always seemed logical to me not to build right next to others to allow everyone a bit of room for expansion.


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I myself was a fan of the old system. With the no build zone for 50 tiles around the deed. It also kept people from piling up and making a wilderness game into a suburban game arguing over property lines. Just always seemed logical to me not to build right next to others to allow everyone a bit of room for expansion.

This would sound cool to me, but not work for a lot of people. Even if you allowed them to have options allowing other friends to deed next to them. :(

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There is only 2 ways to go. You either have no rules or you have a clear set of rules with no room for interpretation. If there are not any rules then there is no grieving as having no rules means nothing is disallowed period end of discussion. Having no rules and having a human being interpret other human beings "intent" in the stead of clear rules is a recipe for disaster. If I don't like the answer I get from 1 Gm I just wait a bit and call another and get a whole different interpretation. While the enclosure rule has flaws the one thing I can at least say it was one of the few black and white rules this game has had. Any Gm or player could look at it and say yep it was a enclosure or nope it wasn't.

 

Its a shame we couldn't just add a starter deed with a new toon that is only 5x5, lasts 2 weeks unless you convert it with silver into a regular deed and cant be placed within 50 tiles of any deeds perimeter. This will provide a trial basis safety net for new users, force them to space out a bit from other deeds to help prevent grumpy neighbor syndrome and also keep their deed far enough out to prevent using them to grief other players. Also make it so you only can redeem 1 starter deed per PC. Yes I have seen other games use a similar feature by limiting 1 free account per PC. I assume they write some obscure code into the registry somewhere that cant be searched by game name but the client checks it on startup. But yeah I know someone would still be creative on grieving with it.

 

I would like these three things for deeds myself. The option to deed all but 1 tile of perimeter as I do realize that cant have 2 deeds butted up against each other without a buffer because you cant share a tile border and this would still provide a 2 tile buffer between deeds. The option to resize in one direction. The option to move the token in any direction(up to say 10 tiles and add a several month cool down on it) without disbanding to help adjust for expansion.

No rules doesn't mean griefing won't exist.

 

When you play a game, ANY game, you bring with you to that game certain real life experiences and beliefs, such as law and order, anarchy, violence and what that means, how violence is defined, assault, theft, etc. We players can not leave all that behind, even if we're roleplaying.

 

I don't believe for one second that if all the rules are thrown out the window that Players won't see certain acts as griefing still.

Edited by Kyrmius

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So if I'm understanding your take on this I can do whatever I want to someone, for any reason, as long as I only do it to each person once?!?  :o

Obviously some people missed my sarcasm here. I think the idea that players should be allowed to do whatever they like if they only do it a certain amount of times is just ludicrous. 

 

Maybe Rolf and team are busy working away on a new set of rules to replace the ones they are removing but I certainly haven't seen any indication of that. If they do plan to add some rules then it would be nice if they'd tell us so. If they aren't then I don't see anything but a lot of chaos, confusion, and anger coming our way. 

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So if the FCC is removed, anything goes. Anything that gets supported due to griefing, can just be defended with "but that enhanced my gameplay". 


 


It's gonna be fun!


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You should be doing thing "to players" at all.   If you are doing something "wrong" because of the other player involved, then I'd count it as griefing.

 

So are you saying that there is going to be a new PnP? Are there any Anti-griefing rules that will still be in place, besides the messing with Heritage-sites that seems to be the only thing that hasn't been scrapped?

 

All I see is that: In approximately two weeks time in conjunction with the removal of the Enclosure Rules we will be shutting down the Freedom Code of Conduct system as it interferes with the intended sandbox aspect of activities in Wurm Online.

 

So if my sandbox experience happens to lessen the fun of another player, that isn't just "too bad"?

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Barbossa:  "...the Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual "rules"!"


 


If a rule isn't enforced by game mechanics, there will always be those who take them to be not rules at all.   That's the core problem with a lot of the "rules" in Wurm, they aren't really rules.


 


Why were players bashing their way into legal enclosures?  Because they could!  Why were't they bashing their way into someones deed?  Because they CAN'T!


 



 


 


Maybe Rolf and team are busy working away on a new set of rules to replace the ones they are removing but I certainly haven't seen any indication of that. If they do plan to add some rules then it would be nice if they'd tell us so. If they aren't then I don't see anything but a lot of chaos, confusion, and anger coming our way.

 


Let's hope they come with some teeth.  Otherwise they'll be more like guidelines...


 



 


 


So if my sandbox experience happens to lessen the fun of another player, that isn't just "too bad"?

 


Hey I want Wurm to be a sandbox too.  But that sounds more like Anarchy.  On PVE servers there wouldn't be ANY risk component for you, as players cannot fight back against your "experience".


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Noobs taking dirt or cutting down trees on your perimeter was never griefing, where did you get that from?  Did you ever get a GM to resurrect new trees on your perimeter because some noob had cut them down, by pointing to the FCC?


 


I am just asking because if so, it's about ****ing time the FCC was removed and GMs got something better to do than babysit your perimeter :D


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But isn't the problem always that you can't prove the primary intention?

Aren't you getting rid of the FCC since you say it isn't enforced anyway?

Do you not lack tools to deal with what many player's see as griefing?

Isn't the purpose of getting rid of enclosures to lessen the load on GMs from griefing calls?

Wouldn't it be smart then to think about the consequences of removing a deterrent to griefing like the FCC, and replacing it with something that actually makes your job easier?

Removing it with nothing in its place just means that now instead of pointing noobs to the FCC when exhibiting an "unwanted" behaviour (and most noobs (not intentional griefers) actually stop when you point out unintended consequences when they are written down as "rules"), I now need to put in a support call so you can judge their primary intent?

If perimeter is public land, are you going to tell people that some public land is less public, if you want to dig dirt to raise land on your deed? Are you telling me that my neighbours perimeter which is full of dirt is less public than another area? Or is it going to be up to the neighbour to go somewhere else and import more dirt in so he can leave his deed without climbing again. 

If I dig a moat around someone else's deed, so I can have a passage around it on a boat, is their ability to leave their deed without a boat more important than me getting around it on a boat?

Since the FCC was the only thing telling me I shouldn't change a landscape not on my deed, if other neighbours had issues with it, can I just change all giant steppe areas to sand if I want to?

And for those who think there really isn't going to be much griefing, since there wasn't much before the rules were put in in the first place, you are not counting on the people who are hellbent on showing you exactly how bad the idea is and actually flood you with griefing complaints.

 

Valid questions presented here concerning perimeters after the enclosure rule is removed. At this point in time perimeters can be structured as enclosures. After removal anything goes within them. Currently all these things can be done within perimeters and may or may not be considered griefing. Others who took the time to enclose their perimeters prevented these things from happening by first providing this line of defense and second by calling upon a GM to enforce the ruling.

 

After the enclosure rule removal it will then be up to the players involved to work out. If one player breaks their neighbors walls down to enter their perimeter area for various reasons (dig out dirt, chop down trees) there will be little that they can do about it. Then what. They in turn break down their neighbors perimeter walls to do the same to take these resources for their own use. To me this is then defined as a feud but by game non-rules is allowed because this is "public" perimeter. 

 

The only way to prevent this is by restructuring perimeter with some protections and options that have been previously mentioned by others. Structure the game mechanics to prevent other players from messing with perimeters that are not their own and no GM intervention will be required. This then to me would be the real solution to reduce GM intervention concerning issues of these types. As is, removal of protections without providing substitutions is just sweeping the dust under the rug, which then will soon turn into a mound that requires additional work to resolve.

 

=Ayes=

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This call for any sort of perimeter protection is nonsense.  When the enclosure rule was introduced, the sole purpose was to give protection to new players during their first few weeks.  The idea was that most players needed a bit of time to feel the game out before buying a deed, and any bashing/stealing that occurred during that time was harmful to the game by chasing away potential customers.  THAT WAS IT.  The fact that deed owners exploited this rule to claim more tiles than they were paying for was an unintended consequence (that many now feel is their entitled birth right). 


 




 


Where I come from if you get something automatically with a product when you buy it, you are paying for that extra thing. The cost is contained within the price of the original item. Same with perimeter tiles of Deeds.




 


Very intelligent observation, however one must dig a bit deeper on WHY the cost of the 'free item' is contained in the original item.  The idea stems from the idea that, in a competitive market, the price of an item will reflect the cost of production.  Assuming the 'free item' incurred a cost to produce, then that cost will be incorporated in the price of the original item.  I believe that assumption does not hold true for perimeters.  It does not directly cost Rolf anymore money to add in the five free perimeter tiles, since the cost of a deed does not reflect the true cost of those tiles (server creation and maintenance).  I would consider the cost of a deed more like a tax, in that it is meant to generate revenue and prevent too much of a behavior (land ownership).


 


P.S.  I am aware that there will be indirect costs associated with a forced 5 tiles of perimeter by way of opportunity costs (people willing to pay for their perimeter), which will deal with positive and negative externalities.  I may or may not address that issue after work.


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Also i want to thank the GM's for taking time to post in this thread to eliminate some common misperceptions. 


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Where I come from if you get something automatically with a product when you buy it, you are paying for that extra thing.

It's not something free you're getting. It's something there to restrict you or anyone else from putting up deeds side by side simple as that.

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You should be doing thing "to players" at all.   If you are doing something "wrong" because of the other player involved, then I'd count it as griefing.

 

Sorry Seara, but I have to ask:

  • What is the basis for determining if it was "wrong" to start with?

 

Several players have said they don't think it's wrong to bash a fence and take/kill animals in a pen, to open storage/loot items in that pen area, or to drop their own fences/gates around someone else's house.

  • How do you prove malice when there is no requirement to justify the action prior to the action?

    • With the enclosure rule inplace (as broken as it is) players know ahead of time if they get caught, they risk the GM involvement, upto and including account loss/ban.

Couldn't the player doing the bashing simply be lazy and retargeting a specific enclosure /player, because they don't deed the tiles and it is a simple target for the action?

There could be no malice involved, just an easy target for specific items/loot, like "farming a boss fight" in other games, it just happens that now it's a player and not NPC.

~The rest of this is a general statement, and not directed at anyone specifically:

 

Beyond that, it is still limited PVP content being added to a server that is not built for it.  We have no way to police ourselves beyond paying for a deed.  Complaints to GM's will need to be on a case by case basis, and in most cases, are the GMs really going to find in favor of a player using, a now unprotected by policy, enclosure without the "basher" basically admitting they did it for the "lols" or because they didn't like the other player?

 

Management is getting rid of one system of enforcement dependent upon subjective determination, for another which simply favors those who are not so brain fried as to admit they did it intentionally.

Edited by Hussars

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Sorry Seara, but I have to ask:

  • What is the basis for determining if it was "wrong" to start with?

 

 

 

 

Catching up with this thread, I was wondering exactly the same.

 

 

Something like this I guess.

 

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEseBvawadw

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@Seara: You said, "...I would not take any action."

That's the problem this topic is addressing. Common sense would dictate that you not tear up perimeters, but it's done often. So we're asking that the Devs take steps to protect our gameplay. Some players don't care what the areas look like outside their deed borders. However, it's a visual game so it's safe to assume many do care. This suggestion would help improve the game for many (yes, including those who can't afford huge deeds. But that's no reason to avoid protecting their game play, as well).

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I am well aware of that. I know the deed system Druid.

 

Where I come from if you get something automatically with a product when you buy it, you are paying for that extra thing. The cost is contained within the price of the original item. Same with perimeter tiles of Deeds. When we plant/buy a deed we are by default also purchasing the perimeter tiles, for those perimeter tiles do not exist until we by the deed. That links the existence of the perimeter tiles to the deed, not the gameworld itself. Maybe that's why some deed owners see perimeter tiles as "owned land"? I think so. That's how the people where I live in real life would view this game mechanic if they played Wurm.... I know what the rules say but the rules don't make much sense to me honestly, they never have with perimeter tiles. I see all perimeter tiles as paid for and when I have had conversations with others in Wurm sometimes others say the view it as the same.

 

The game, nor the Players, NEED 5 tiles on each deed for a "road". One tile is enough of a buffer in most cases. It's time the perimeter tiles be usable for expansions without generating new ones. All the game and the Players need is 1 tile on the outside of each deed. Let the deed owners expand their deeds out 4 tiles if they choose to spend the money to do so, and allow the deed owners to expand on one, two, three, or all sides if they choose to do so.

 

We NEED as deed owners the ability to expand our deed in any direction we choose, to utilize at least 4 or the 5 perimeter tiles, for expansion.... and of course to be able to purchase more perimeter tiles as we already can do. To me it seems the deed system is only 75% finished, like a feature that got pushed into the game, but wasn't done yet.

 

Then and ONLY THEN in my mind will the statement "perimeter tiles are for expansion" be believable. Until they change it I will continue to tell new players that the perimeter tiles are just government owned land, like a road easement, and I think myself that is a terrible reminder of real life stupid crap we have to deal with. Some Players come to Wurm to get away from that garbage, to interact in a world without 50,000 stupid laws, and the perimeter rule in my view is a stupid rule reminding us of the real ones.

 

Yes, but but but... one sided expansion would mean the marker would not be centered and there is no realistic basis of the center of towns not being in the exact center of towns. I mean, every time a city annexes a tract or two of land, they just pick up and move city hall right? Just to make the point clearer, a lot of people didn't like predator vs prey but the realism argument was tossed around heavily. You know... all those real giant spiders out there eating unicorns and what not. But when you want to add this realism to it, the exact same people pointing fingers and saying drama drama drama over that start saying how it will make their gameplay harder because they can't find the center of a deed. And you know what? We got predator vs prey and broken animal AI like it or not and we will NOT get 1 sided expansions like it or not. 

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Griefing is whatever Rolf says it is which may change 5 minutes after one of his chat buddies whines about something.


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When I'm looking at a charge of griefing, I'm looking for why something was done; not what was done.

 

Griefing (from my point of view) is any action taken with the primary intention of making trouble for another player.  That is it's all about the intention of the action, not the action itself.

 

Thus, to try to make a list of "these actions are considered griefing" is totally missing the point.

 

 

 

A player can take take actions that cause you harm without intending to grief you.   You may report that as griefing, but I would not take any action before getting a reasonable feeling about why that action was taken by the other player.

 

Not good! Allowing GM's this much personal opnion on issues is a recipie for disaster.

 

Some some dude bashes down fences around my perimeter to get inside a fenced-off area. I respond by bash down any stuff dude makes and replace the fence....who's the greifer? IMO, neither. Land which is not deeded is free for all.

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Lets get this thread back on topic, Sierra ty for your reply but its not about how a dev will respond to a call.   Nor is about what perims are for or who owns them, there are other threads for those topics.  This thread is about what is it wrong to do, not whether or not a lie told by a griefer can be proven or not. 


 


The first question is can perimeters and even the area around a ftp be defaced or destroyed. leaving them setting in the middle of a mess ?  What is the point of picking a beautiful spot and placing a deed if next week you could find yourself setting in the middle of a mess created by a jerk


 


Next question is, what is wurm going to do to give players the security they need to eliminate the need for all the fencing and drama in the first place. Four years ago there was little if any need for fences to keep aggresive behavior away.  Fences were for containing livestock.


 


I pay to play on peaceful non aggresive server, many of us have litte if any desire to pay to be in an aggresive environment.  If we did we would move to a pvp server.


 


The fcc and the encloser rule both needed to go, not because they were bad for for freedom, but because they conflicted with each other allowing widely different opinions both among players and among staff, which in turn led to large amounts of misiformation being given to new players getting them in trouble.   The rule at the end of the first paragraph on the rules page is very clear, no player is allowed to spoil anothers play experience, but enforcing it on its own now is going to be a far harder job than it was when the fcc and enclosure rules were in place.


 


What we need now is confirmation that something better is coming to put an end to this destructive drama both on the forums and in game, and give peace of mind back to the freedom players so that it will stop.


 


There are few deed owners on the freedom cluster that wont be upset or worse when aggressive behavior or destruction touches them, and at least as many others that will not pay to be on a ruleless server.   The drops in prems are already showing on the graphs, coincedence ?   Maybe, but i rather doubt it. 


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As stated, it is all about the intent of the player. If the player's intent was to come to your property and steal all of your tools or whatever, because they did not like you, that is a clear case of grief. Now if a player sees your fences, sees the tools inside and says "Hey free tools", that is not grief, that is opportunism. You have methods of protection for your goods, if you do not use it or choose to risk it, that is 100% your fault. 


 


A Fo spawning 4k dirt to surround your perim and box you in? Totally griefing you as a player. A guy clear cuts your perim forest because they needed some wood? Totally acceptable. That is just as much his wood as it is yours. 


Edited by GorgonKain

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