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Rolf

Never-been premiums deed holders

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Nope. I see no need to give back any of the upkeep funds to only the portion of the player base that drains them from Traders, much less to anyone really. Let the game have this income completely and in return reduce the upkeep cost by 1/2 for all deed holders on Xanadu.

 

I am a bit puzzled as to why you see a need to do this as mentioned in your post. This was just a system that was devised for the purpose of returning a portion of the deed upkeep to players and later found to be unsustainable and detrimental to the games profits. The fact that certain players became dependent upon it and it then in turn skewed the games economy is all the more reason not to enable this Trader draining system upon Xanadu.

 

=Ayes=

 

 

And therefore reward only those going into the game with RL wealth.

Upkeep/Traders/Or other forms of upkeep distribution is a wealth tax.  Not much different than the mechanism at the heart of the current pop culture event of Piketty's 700 page economics critique.

While you might stop your debate at "I pay because I can afford to, Rolf profits... no one else should" (I am assuming that is your argument based on what is written, not on what you have yet to write) The fact that the majority of players are actually living off the distribution system, directly or indirectly (Directly: Trader owners, indirectly: Labor workers who buy premium with in game coin) and that the game is continually growing is case in point that the system is not failed... its just not very adequate in what it does.

If you come into the game with being able to buy whatever you want.  You are in a sense an avatar who upon gaining access to this world inherited an endless stream of wealth.  You haven't earned anything in the game, you are simply buying things with the wealth you inherited.  you are the wealthiest of players with arguable endless amounts of capitol. (what you are willing to throw at the game and the Wurm Shop).

While your stance in a real world would be seen as wealthy elitism, there is a divide between the Wurm world, your keyboard and your Real life.  So yes, your argument does hold some water, even if its a leaking 1ql leather bag.  The game as you know it, wouldn't exist without some sort of coin distribution.  There are not enough 'wealth by inheritance" players in the game yet.  You have a lot of middle class who can afford premium, but thats about it.  Thinking anyone and everything can even spend 1/2 the current cost on deeds and survive is laughable.

 

If your answer is, they should join up with others to make deed costs more affordable... you are telling them how to play the game they have also been funding by what means they can justify.  You are telling a class of players who own deeds because of the dole that they aren't worth their salt in game.

 

In my response to this thread... I never said the traders should be the 1 sole source of wealth redistribution in game... on the contrary, it was a critique for releasing such a large server (most likely the future of wurm) without a tested wealth distribution system better than the current form.  Traders. and their mechanics, are too easily exploited by those with knowledge of them.

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So it will be a server 16x the size of Indy and people is concerned about land grabbing?


 


Really?


 


Well for the good of the company making Wurm with in the end can benefit the future development of the game for all players I hope this new server face the biggest land grabbing by deeds of all time, and if after a month or two the space depleted lets open one more!


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Will Epic get a delayed connection to Xanadu as well? so to bring any silver over will take 1 week "at the least"?


 


so as a new F2P toon joining Xanadu I would have to get 10s on the shop for a deed form?


 


which is still nicer than having to get premium and a deed form at the same time for sure and with the tile cost change one can grab a bit more land for that 10s


 


but not overly massive since as a f2p one can only buy so much silver, until i add premium time, so if one will want to reserve a huge deed on day one. they would still have to get massive amounts of premium time to buy the coin right???


 


if you were to let epic coin over in the first week then i don't see a need to even create free alts to plant deeds with money we wouldn't have to buy from the shop anyways, go with a portal and let us portal to the spawn with everyone else and enjoy the event.


but if your plan is to keep the servers isolated from pre existing coin, then yeah this is great, half off on deed placing wooo!


 


did I Sherlock this one or not?


 




This helps you experienced players place a deed without having to prem up and hand it to your main account once the borders open which is the main thing we want to solve.




this is the line that makes the portal idea come to life, solve it by not creating it and "at the least" let us portal!  but if you still want us to buy 10s on the shop for the first week to get a deed i can understand.


mainly since i just want to explore it i can wait the week to sail over anyways im sure there will be lots of Xanadu to go around and bee seen, which is exciting!


 


if this was another small server where traders would get placed and dragons would get penned i probably wouldn't care much.


but i have a feeling that Xanadu will be different and that is truly great for wurm!

Edited by Aum
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Haven't read all the replies, so sorry if this has already been suggested/mentioned..

But if the main reason for not connecting xanadu with the old server from the get go is to avoid database being overwhelmed by filled ships pouring over the server. I propose another solution.. Make it possible to portal into xanadu from old servers, this way you won't get thousands and thousands of items overwhelming the database and old players can still be able to join in on the landrush.. 

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When I first started playing Wurm I was amazed at the deeds other players had built and I was motivated to build similar things myself. If I had started on a new server without any experienced players around, I would likely not have lasted very long - but others might feel different. What concerns me is that the first week, new players on Xanadu will experience large empty deeds with no players just waiting for the borders to open - not the best way to showcase a game.


 


PR wise, I would do it the other way around - let experienced players be the first to enter the server, give them a week to establish themselves (and let them test performance issues since we are more forgiving) then open for new players. That way new players would hopefully experience a server with lots of activity and lots of experienced players to ask for help.


 


Just my 5 cents.


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Thank Rolf for letting us know about this, and about Xanadu via Red-Baron. Thanks for letting us know about the FCC being dropped via GM Enki.


 


Maybe allowing Players to plant a Deed without Premium will be a good thing. I play from North America and the cost to me last month for 2 months of Premium was $22.06 on the day I did it. Cost for 10 Silver same. $44.12 for a new Player to plant a deed under current system. Compared to other Online Games Wurm is expensive for Players from where I live.


 


So Thank you Rolf and all involved with this decision. Wurm will be more affordable and perhaps that will help bring in Players that shied away because of it's cost and because there were many other Online games with cheaper prices.


 


If you're trying to compete pricewise with other Online Games than your decision makes sense.


Edited by Kyrmius

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Crack, on 25 Apr 2014 - 1:52 PM, said:

My only fear with this is that theres going to be millions of abandoned noob deeds around when most noobs quit very early on.

Other than that ive got no issue with this change

 

Could be countered by adding a mechanism that rapidly decays areas (all player made objects, walls, fences, houses, looms, fountains etc) back to grass/dirt within a week or so that have recently disbanded. The area could be given a temporary aura in the event log "You sense decay and ruin" or something - then it would just be a case of coming along with a shovel and tidying up any obscene slopes (5min job or so).

 

I'm happy with waiting at least a week for Xanadu to settle before connection to the PVE servers (lets face it, most of the time when a server is release, there are more often.. stability issues in the beginning as the startup 'kinks' are ironed out.

 

I don't mind 'freemium' players being able to deed, however it makes things exceptionally easier for the more richer players to just make a temporary noob, load it with gold, claim land and wait for the big connection to the rest of PVE (this will happen, no doubt). So it kind of encourages land grabbing in a way... at the same time, there WILL be land grabbing even if 'freemiums' couldn't buy deeds, it's so unavoidable and it's happened repeatedly in the past. What they going to do; filter all current IP's connected to previous PVE servers and deny them access to Xanadu, end up with a forum full of "Hey, I'm actually new, I missed the start of Xanadu, why was my IP banned" (as IP's are no longer 'new' and are being constantly recycled globally. Not everyone has an ISP with a static address, even then, ways around it), whilst robbing Wurm Online the opportunity to obtain a cash injection for more development? *shrugs* Kind of need to expect and accept.

 

I do have a question (I don't know if this has already been answered), if a 'freemium' makes a deed, becomes inactive and is deleted with an active deed, what happens to the deed? Instant disband? Or is it left mayor-less until the upkeep is drained?

Edited by Mishia

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It means new players should avoid joining Wurm for this launch, seriously, they have no chance to be competitive in a market or economy.

 

There is going to be a mad land rush by players who bring in coin via Epic servers and at the 1c/tile rate can purchase massive deeds, and then bring their 90+ skill mains in to set the economy.

 

A new player will have zero chance to make a living in that environment

Some days you wonder why older players have problems with new players...

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Haven't read all the replies, so sorry if this has already been suggested/mentioned..

But if the main reason for not connecting xanadu with the old server from the get go is to avoid database being overwhelmed by filled ships pouring over the server. I propose another solution.. Make it possible to portal into xanadu from old servers, this way you won't get thousands and thousands of items overwhelming the database and old players can still be able to join in on the landrush.. 

 

Me too ... it's getting added to very quickly.

 

But hey, why not do both?

 

The way I see this change is that, outside of the mayor account getting deleted, there wasn't a really good reason to the premium impediment to deeding (a show stopper in Rolf parlance) in the first place. The other concerns are weighed against the benefits. With enclosure rule removal this will make it easier for players (new and old) to deed their areas. As someone mentioned, there is less sticker shock in 10s for a deed paper as opposed to 10s + prem for a deed. 

 

In addition, it gives an option for established players to get in on the landrush event without preming an alt. It might not be a perfect solution, but it is a compromise that is turning a lot of people around on the new server. 

 

OK so it does cause one more issue, a whole lot of throwaway accounts. So the portal idea is rather nice, if it wouldn't be a ton more work on top of everything else going on atm. Otherwise I think this is more of a "two birds with one stone" situation. 

 

Just my personal 2 cents, not representing, etc etc. 

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Just to echo what others have suggested, I STRONGLY recommend the support the portal option.  Allowing existing characters to enter a portal on their other servers and transfer to Xanadu with only their money, no items, would be a much better solution in order to keep customers happy, but solve the only stated issue of crazy item inflation during a boat zerg.  


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My only fear with this is that theres going to be millions of abandoned noob deeds around when most noobs quit very early on.

Other than that ive got no issue with this change

Might encourage new players to stick it out since they have some sort of investment into the game.

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couple of points to make....

 

for those concerned about money coming in from epic... as i understand the post here : http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/100528-news-update-work-and-progress-week-17/?p=1016960

 

specifically the line: "When it comes to connecting the old servers we will wait at least a week after initial release"

 

I believe as a player that that means that none of the old servers will be connected, epic or freedom. the epic servers certainty should count as old in this case.

 

as far as people worrying about all the good spots being taken... you're joking right?  the server has the land area of 16 chaos or indy servers. i did the math in another thread, cant remember which one, but this SINGLE server has just a little under 4 times the land area of all of the other servers currently in wurm combined. i dont think all the good spots will be taken that fast, travel times will ensure that.

 

and finally, not every server needs to be a new start with all 0 skill characters. This is new land added to an existing world, I dont see anything wrong with existing characters being welcome there even though i dont plan to move myself. 

Incidentally, (just had another thought and went to check my memory) in his post here: the thread about traders  rolf said:

 

Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:04 AM

Allright, thanks for your feedback. We've discussed it and decided not to change traders on existing servers for now since people are so accustomed to the system. We have some interesting ideas for more ways of money distribution that we may try.

 

 

 

I dont think i would assume that there will be traders on xanadu for people to make trader deeds with. Xanadu is a new server after all, not an existing one and could be a place to try out some of those interesting ideas he mentions.

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Here is the problem I really have: being forced to wait a week or start a new toon to enter the first day.  I have played the game for 5 years now, already had to put up with not being allowed on Release and Pristine, and now this?  Why does my being an experienced player have to be a PENALTY?  I'm all for making the start easier for new players, but it should not interfere with my gameplay at the same time.


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It amazes me how much people complain these day. We still get one of the cheapest pay to play mmo's, if you decide to have multiple toons and deeds that you responsibility.


 


We complain when things change and freely embrace it when we get something new with not much thought about apart from "awesome, but when are we getting....". So entitled we are. Spell cast just posted so many very we balanced points. 1 Week to wait? game breaking. Why should new players get a head start? are you going to give them you farwalker amulet? We seem to be ok with things that are in the game that advantage ourselves and cry when they don't. 


 


Instead of complaining about it adjust to it, nobody is wiping the servers, nobody is killing your children and so on. THing like this are not game breaking. I see nothing Rold has done that really need so much complaining about and If you feel that it really is that bad perhaps you are that frustrated that it time to move on, but from where I see it, you are just shooting yourself in the foot as you will be the one missing out. Even the previous issue we have had lately people threaten to leave, Im pretty sure they are still here.


 


As far as costs and conspiracy theory's of how Rolf does things to try and make more money? He has to make money. fair enough nobody ever wants to pay anymore then they are currently paying. But it always happen. You cant say you arent use to it in everyday life, get use to it here as well, its not going away.


 


I really find it boring to keep hearing "Daddy took my toys away" even though Daddy keeps giving us more toys all the time. 


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Seriously, I read all five pages of this thread and it only made me hostile, if I was a mod I'd close this thread.  News posts shouldn't contain these kinds of toxic replies.


 


To be honest news threads shouldn't even be able to be replied to, talk about this kind of stuff in gen discussion.


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It amazes me how much people complain these day. We still get one of the cheapest pay to play mmo's, if you decide to have multiple toons and deeds that you responsibility.

 

We complain when things change and freely embrace it when we get something new with not much thought about apart from "awesome, but when are we getting....". So entitled we are. Spell cast just posted so many very we balanced points. 1 Week to wait? game breaking. Why should new players get a head start? are you going to give them you farwalker amulet? We seem to be ok with things that are in the game that advantage ourselves and cry when they don't. 

 

Instead of complaining about it adjust to it, nobody is wiping the servers, nobody is killing your children and so on. THing like this are not game breaking. I see nothing Rold has done that really need so much complaining about and If you feel that it really is that bad perhaps you are that frustrated that it time to move on, but from where I see it, you are just shooting yourself in the foot as you will be the one missing out. Even the previous issue we have had lately people threaten to leave, Im pretty sure they are still here.

 

As far as costs and conspiracy theory's of how Rolf does things to try and make more money? He has to make money. fair enough nobody ever wants to pay anymore then they are currently paying. But it always happen. You cant say you arent use to it in everyday life, get use to it here as well, its not going away.

 

I really find it boring to keep hearing "Daddy took my toys away" even though Daddy keeps giving us more toys all the time. 

 

If Rolf offered every wurm player rl gold, we'd all moan that gold prices have lowered and it isn't as worth as much since he flooded the market. That's just the nature of wurm players. Hell I moan too.

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When I first started playing Wurm I was amazed at the deeds other players had built and I was motivated to build similar things myself. If I had started on a new server without any experienced players around, I would likely not have lasted very long - but others might feel different. What concerns me is that the first week, new players on Xanadu will experience large empty deeds with no players just waiting for the borders to open - not the best way to showcase a game.

 

PR wise, I would do it the other way around - let experienced players be the first to enter the server, give them a week to establish themselves (and let them test performance issues since we are more forgiving) then open for new players. That way new players would hopefully experience a server with lots of activity and lots of experienced players to ask for help.

 

Just my 5 cents.

 

This. Not really much I can add to it.

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epic conected or not....  new char and 10s thru paypal...  still can get nice chunk of land nearby spawns :D


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It amazes me how much people complain these day. We still get one of the cheapest pay to play mmo's,...

 

 

Wurm is NOT one of the cheapest pay to play MMOs, not if you are using a currency that is weak against the Euro. For me Wurm is an expensive game right now. Not Rolf's fault but it DOES affect how a customer perceives whether a product/service still has the value it once did.

 

Example: I for one am watching a game I love being changed into a game I know I will hate, and at the same time questioning myself just how long will I spend money on a game that for me is much more expensive than others games I also enjoy. Big changes to a MMO/game will get people to reevaluate whether or not they want to spend money on that MMO/game.

 

Complaints are just what unhappy customers do. Ask anyone that's worked in retail or service industry. If a CEO suddenly saw a 50% reductions in profit for the last quarter of business I guarantee you that CEO will complain... why is that OK and a dissatisfied customer complaining not OK? To my way of thinking BOTH can complain and I won't tell them they aren't allowed to. Both are equal in my eyes.

 

Rolf is changing things up around here. There are always complaints from one camp or another when he does that. If there weren't I would begin to wonder if everybody are Bots.

Edited by Kyrmius

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There are going to be so many people there deeding or preparing to deed. Why are you not taking this new economic swing into account? There are going to be a fair few number of players I am betting, that will drop the extra couple of Euros to have someone else make their bricks. Not to mention all of the untouched resources that people will be looking for, and quite likely shell out.


 


You do not have to kick into your paypal to prem and deed on Xanadu, you just need to be patient for one direction or the other to open up.  


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Question?  If never prem players can purchase deeds, what happens to the deed if the mayor of said deed gets his character deleted?  Also if the toon does get deleted if he is able to remake same character name upon making a new toon will he get the rights back as a mayor of the deed if it has not disbanded. 


 


A suggestion I have for Never prem deed holders is,  Do not allow them to have more than 3 months of upkeep at a time on said deed, this will make them have to log in to make sure upkeep does not run out and keep froob deed from sitting for ages.


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Yup, it's not hugely expensive to just play but nor is it the cheapest, especially in regards to having a full, functional game. I personally play one premium toon, which costs about the same as a hardcover book every two months ($22ish USD) plus 3.5  (maybe $6-7) silver a month for the deed. Not too bad, but hardly cheap. More to the point, this game is broken constantly, and for the same cost (or less) a month, I could be playing a far more functional game or donating to an upcoming project (For those who ask "why don't you then?", I am.).


 


I do love Wurm though. It's a great game hidden inside a ton of drama, poor management, doubletalk and occasionally hilarious animations. But none of this matters if the game is going to change on a weekly/monthly basis. Some people might like that. I suspect a good number of us do not. And 60-75% of us are on Freedom servers to avoid the nasty behavior that can (I said CAN. I have had both good and bad PVP experiences in other games.) come with PVP. The griefing, campers, sore winners, e-peening. We don't want to have to retaliate or deal with conflict on that level, so we kill spiders, or trolls, or nothing, as we please. The 'complaints' are as much sadness regarding a game we love going down a bad path, as it is anger at feeling duped or ripped off. 


 




Wurm is NOT one of the cheapest pay to play MMOs, not if you are using a currency that is weak against the Euro. For me Wurm is an expensive game right now. Not Rolf's fault but it DOES affect how a customer perceives whether a product/service still has the value it once did.


 


Example: I for one am watching a game I love being changed into a game I know I will hate, and at the same time questioning myself just how long will I spend money on a game that for me is much more expensive than others games I also enjoy. Big changes to a MMO/game will get people to reevaluate whether or not they want to spend money on that MMO/game.


 


Complaints are just what unhappy customers do. Ask anyone that's worked in retail or service industry. If a CEO suddenly saw a 50% reductions in profit for the last quarter of business I guarantee you that CEO will complain... why is that OK and a dissatisfied customer complaining not OK? To my way of thinking BOTH can complain and I won't tell them they aren't allowed to. Both are equal in my eyes.


 


Rolf is changing things up around here. There are always complaints from one camp or another when he does that. If there weren't I would begin to wonder if everybody are Bots.



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Yup, it's not hugely expensive to just play but nor is it the cheapest, especially in regards to having a full, functional game. I personally play one premium toon, which costs about the same as a hardcover book every two months ($22ish USD) plus 3.5  (maybe $6-7) silver a month for the deed. Not too bad, but hardly cheap. More to the point, this game is broken constantly, and for the same cost (or less) a month, I could be playing a far more functional game or donating to an upcoming project (For those who ask "why don't you then?", I am.).

 

I do love Wurm though. It's a great game hidden inside a ton of drama, poor management, doubletalk and occasionally hilarious animations. But none of this matters if the game is going to change on a weekly/monthly basis. Some people might like that. I suspect a good number of us do not. And 60-75% of us are on Freedom servers to avoid the nasty behavior that can (I said CAN. I have had both good and bad PVP experiences in other games.) come with PVP. The griefing, campers, sore winners, e-peening. We don't want to have to retaliate or deal with conflict on that level, so we kill spiders, or trolls, or nothing, as we please. The 'complaints' are as much sadness regarding a game we love going down a bad path, as it is anger at feeling duped or ripped off. 

 

Sorry, I have to agree to disargee...again. All the points you bring up really don't really concern me too much, I guess it's perception and a also that this to me is still a GAME. As I have said nothing is game breaking for me and until it is I'll still have the same opinion. 

 

Drama happen mainly here on the forums. Look at the hundreds of people that don't post or never comment. There are 98 replies here, many many of the same people over and over and it has 2200 view and a lot of people don't even read the forums. 

 

I guess what im trying to say is...

 

I go out to breakfast and many customers order the same meal. Some people complain about the toast not cooked enough and other think it really not a big deal and eat it just the way it comes. It wont destroy my day. Occasional I don't mind it under toasted.

 

I know everyone love the game and complain cause they care, but to me it's the degree of the changes and what warrants large amounts of complaining. But that's just me.....

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