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Sevenless

I did a math (Blacksmithing vs Weaponsmithing skill model)

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Incorrect here, main skill slightly helps you to do the sub skills, making it slightly easier, so actually REDUCING the exp gained in sub skills.

So it actually does the opposite, you want to get as close to the 50% difficulty mark as you can.

 

Heh, and I'm going to say that's incorrect as well. Although it makes actions easier, since all of these skills we're discussing are improvement based, it simply moves the curve of best imp range for quality higher. You will always be able to reach this point in the curve, but it does mean your top imp quality is a smidgeon higher.

 

So there's effectively no harm or benefit in trying to brute for raise the overskill with regards to skillgain. Having a higher smithing skill though does make creating weapons to WS on somewhat easier since it's an achingly slow skill to level in the first place. I wouldn't say that benefit would ever even slightly pay back the cost of time sunk into raising the overskill however.

 

Edit: Alex I've some theories but I can't really give any conclusions just yet. Would need data that would be painful to collect ><

Edited by Sevenless

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@81-82 smithing and 73 WS it definitely helps create higher ql weapons, however, I'm saying exp per action is lower...now in the long run so to speak, but it definitely helps imp higher.

That friend was 50 ish WS when I started from 34, I caught up to him and passed at 70, and he was grinding a lot more then I myself was.... I was also able to create weapons at 73 skill, with more ease then he was, at 76.

Overall if anything I'd say for the exp, it won't change to much, only real noticeable effect is being able to do things with more ease.

I find it funny when ppl say making a 90ql BS tool takes a hour+, only takes 15 minutes... Not really sure if they just overstate there times, or skills help that much.

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The overall smithing skill will definitely help. Another thing to note is your sub skills like miscellaneous tools or hammer. The amount of time you take off per action combined with the heightened chance of success and higher amount of improvement.


 


It all adds up in the end.


 


Edit: The one thing that would actually lower the experience per action is your tool skills. But your experience per hour if you managed perfect action overlap would not change. You would just need to hit more buttons and likely go through more materials since you are improving more times.


Edited by Sevenless

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Well, with 85(?) hammer skill, I was still getting the best gains with it at 89 CoC (92ql, rare hammer) vs a 100 ql 94 CoC pelt

So even that I would say doesn't hurt "to" much.

Either or, your going to be grinding any skill for a long time in this game. ;)

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Pretty sure your pelt uses your Misc Items skill for timers, so even that had a skill level attached. And it's not really a hurt, so much as a "seems to hurt". All skill gains are per second of actions, so shorter actions "appear" to give less skill but in reality just give it faster but in smaller packets.


Edited by Sevenless

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So you're saying i spend 2500 hours weaponsmithing? I should re-do that calculation with my skill logs really :P But i don't think i did it that much... did i 


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So you're saying i spend 2500 hours weaponsmithing? I should re-do that calculation with my skill logs really :P But i don't think i did it that much... did i 

 

This is not tailored to be accurate for in game time exactly. The relation between the two types of skills and the relative time taken is correct. But I missing quite a bit of data to make it an actual in game estimate.

 

I'm also ignoring sleeping bonus and circle of cunning. So theoretically speaking it could be half that value, assuming the model is correct. And I know for sure the model has some flaws, just not certain how much of a difference they make.

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OK so it has been pretty safe to say my theory was somewhat right based on long term good to know I didn't waste time. I'm going to continue this way of skilling it seems pretty good and also seems to burn me out less.

100 everything here I come :P

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OK so it has been pretty safe to say my theory was somewhat right based on long term good to know I didn't waste time. I'm going to continue this way of skilling it seems pretty good and also seems to burn me out less.

100 everything here I come :P

 

Ultimately put playing "suboptimally" is anything but if that's what's required for you to enjoy the game. if you would get bored and quit playing "optimally" clearly that is not optimal for you.

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These numbers do not match my experience. I have been leveling up blacksmithing casually on my main while leveling ws intensively on my alt.


 


Several times in the 50-60 skill range my BS and WS skills were extremely close. BS went up about 5 times as fast as WS (both on sleep bonus, almost identlcal CoC tools). I noticed this in the low 50s and again in the high 50s (I slacked with BS since I was focusing on other skills). I'm quoting from memory, but I'm very certain about this since I was very curious about it.


 


I am now at 94 BS and 74 WS they level roughly at the same rate. I can do an accurate measurement if anyone's interested. I can also look up logs from earlier skilling if there's interest. I'm curious about this too. :)


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I know my 96 BS was leveling up near the same as 57 WS, exact same tools. >_<

Edit, also my friend and I felt like every 10 levels from 7 (ie: 47, 57, 67, 77, 87...) felt like the exp requires to level WS jumped way up, obviously it goes up every level, but for some reason those last 3 always seemed a lot harder... Maybe that's just from anticipation to get to the next 10 mark though.

Edited by Druidnature

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These numbers do not match my experience.

 

I'm a scientist DK, give me some data. Preferably similar weight just in case that rumour has any truth to it, but not required. Length of actions is crucial here for proper comparison. I'm at a loss how exactly to figure out what optimal means with varying skills/tool qualities, but you should be aiming for optimal gain values. I suppose that'd be ~ your skill level for 50, ~5 levels under for the higher skill?

 

And lets keep CoC out of this. The influence of CoC is not terribly well documented and the potential of giving extra ticks would really muck up our data if it skews the difficulty curve somehow.

 

Edit: In several skill graphs that I've seen, there is distinct demarcations where the skill slope seems to change noticeably. My simple model doesn't take that into account obviously.

Edited by Sevenless

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@81-82 smithing and 73 WS it definitely helps create higher ql weapons, however, I'm saying exp per action is lower...now in the long run so to speak, but it definitely helps imp higher.

That friend was 50 ish WS when I started from 34, I caught up to him and passed at 70, and he was grinding a lot more then I myself was.... I was also able to create weapons at 73 skill, with more ease then he was, at 76.

Overall if anything I'd say for the exp, it won't change to much, only real noticeable effect is being able to do things with more ease.

I find it funny when ppl say making a 90ql BS tool takes a hour+, only takes 15 minutes... Not really sure if they just overstate there times, or skills help that much.

 

Well you probably have much more than 97 BS or much better Ql tools and iron than 95+, cause i have that and i know i can´t made 1 single bs item form creation to 90 ql on 15 minutes.

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96.20 BS (give or take .10 points) last I looked, and (81?) smithing overall, all tools except whetstone/pelt are rare, and highest ql I could get them with the ore I get...which is around 91-92 ql depending what character I mined it with.

If I focus on one item it takes 15, however, most people imp multiple things up at once - in most cases I don't do that, unless I'm grinding for skill. Or mass producing something for alliance to enchant.

But nowhere near 1h, more less 30m unless I'm paying little attention to the account.

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96.20 BS (give or take .10 points) last I looked, and (81?) smithing overall, all tools except whetstone/pelt are rare, and highest ql I could get them with the ore I get...which is around 91-92 ql depending what character I mined it with.

If I focus on one item it takes 15, however, most people imp multiple things up at once - in most cases I don't do that, unless I'm grinding for skill. Or mass producing something for alliance to enchant.

But nowhere near 1h, more less 30m unless I'm paying little attention to the account.

 

Well you have then more luck than me and probably fail a lot less, since i have more skill and better tools and iron and i can´t make as good items as you make in such a short time.

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Out of curiosity, do you fail a lot pre-90?

I notice fails starting around 87-ish, however, it's not bad at all (like 1/5th ish fail) until 90.20ish then it's like, 1/3rd fail, sometimes more.

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96.20 BS (give or take .10 points) last I looked, and (81?) smithing overall, all tools except whetstone/pelt are rare, and highest ql I could get them with the ore I get...which is around 91-92 ql depending what character I mined it with.

If I focus on one item it takes 15, however, most people imp multiple things up at once - in most cases I don't do that, unless I'm grinding for skill. Or mass producing something for alliance to enchant.

But nowhere near 1h, more less 30m unless I'm paying little attention to the account.

 

I have almost the exact same stats n tools as you describe though only 65 overall smithing and there is no way i could take a standard tool from 1 to 90 in 15 minutes. Is this with woa'd tools?

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Alright people. Lets just do this the proper way. Do your imps and then post your log summary.


 


People often miss-estimate after all.


Edited by Sevenless

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i'm 98 BS and I will also say it is not possible to imp to 90 in 15 minutes.  yes my hammer is rare and everything is woa/coc.


 


on a side note I did check my CAS today.  I did cas since it is lower and I wanted to check how long till 90 skill.  Also was checking the skillgain when imping above skill as I remember some change a while ago for increased gains for ql when up to 10 above skill.  I found it taking way too long to get imped when over my skill and not any better gain per tick.  Myself I prefer doing more items and having them to sell later instead of going so high when skilling.  The cas chart is without sleep bonus.


 


In order to project I also pulled up my HFC data to scale the future gains.  A chart from that is attached for any interested.  The bumps in the graph are because I capture data per batch, not per meal.  I then reverse average it to be a gain per meal.  stew vs meals at different times changes hfc gains too.  the raw data should be on wiki if really interested in details.


 


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on a side note I did check my CAS today.  I did cas since it is lower and I wanted to check how long till 90 skill.  Also was checking the skillgain when imping above skill as I remember some change a while ago for increased gains for ql when up to 10 above skill.  I found it taking way too long to get imped when over my skill and not any better gain per tick.  Myself I prefer doing more items and having them to sell later instead of going so high when skilling.  The cas chart is without sleep bonus.

 

The gain per tick is not influenced by the ql of the item when improving, but the skill tick frequenzy is heavily affected by it. Pushing your skills limits will result in a lot more ticks.

 

There's quite a few errors in the thread and I don't feel like weaponsmithing is near 16x as slow as a normal skill. I find it much easier and more accurate to measier skillgains over a period of time rather than per tick.

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more ticks would make sense.  I'd still rather have the 25 chain sets done faster than a bit more skill myself.  I'm not THAT into pure grinding.


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The gain per tick is not influenced by the ql of the item when improving, but the skill tick frequenzy is heavily affected by it. Pushing your skills limits will result in a lot more ticks.

 

There's quite a few errors in the thread and I don't feel like weaponsmithing is near 16x as slow as a normal skill. I find it much easier and more accurate to measier skillgains over a period of time rather than per tick.

 

You're correct that it's more useful, but in the end when grinding a skill like BS vs WS the frequency of ticks should average out to be the same between the two in the long run. I did mention there's no way to mimic that model easily without knowing the formula.

 

Mama's data should help me refining the simplified model though, but ultimately I'll still need to do some testing to find out the gain difference between "normal" skills and weaponsmithing.

 

btw, theory here is that WS levels as an overskill (like cooking) instead of a sub skill (like HFC).

 

Edit: Mama is that with SB or without?

Edited by Sevenless

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I wonder if the same thing could be said for Carpenters and Shipbuilders????

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I have almost the exact same stats n tools as you describe though only 65 overall smithing and there is no way i could take a standard tool from 1 to 90 in 15 minutes. Is this with woa'd tools?

 

The hammer is Woa'd, I can't remember how much, I know it's over 70, but not by much IIRC. I don't believe anything else does.

 

Next time I imp something up, I'll try to start/stop my stopwatch or something else and see exactly how long. I just remember doing my pickaxes and it taking no  time at all.  :P

 

on a side note, I HATE imping armour though.....that crap does take forever. T_T (totally different character/tools though)

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