Playerbase count (PvP vs PvE)

[Object 281]

Ok so I'm kinda sick of hearing the comments "Rolf should just focus on PvE content because that is where the majority of players are."  So I'd like to put this all to rest with real statistics.

 

The amount of players who play on PvP servers are about 31% of the total playerbase currently, the amount of premium accounts in Wurm right now is 5376.  At 8 euros per account that's a gross income of 43,008 euros.  31% of that is 13,332 euros.

 

So sure, I agree with you guys that the PvE playerbase is the majority but if Rolf focuses solely on PvE content and ignores PvP there is a good chance he will lose 13 thousand euros a month.  So I don't know about you but I would say there really needs to be a healthy balance between adding (or tweaking) the pvp and pve aspects of this game.

 

I'm also sick of people saying "If you add more PvE elements it affects everyone anyways."  No that's not always true, I haven't seen a single flower box on Elevation and things like the creature ratio on deed was something that should have solely been added to freedom and should never have affected the PvP servers.

 

Now please, understand what I'm saying before you reply.  I am not suggesting in any way that Rolf ignore PvE players I'm just sick of PvE players saying to ignore the PvPers.

 

[whykillme 1,621]

Edit - Forget it, no use arguing about this subject.

Edited April 22, 2014 by whykillme

[MattSquare 426]

He's saying that both PvP and PvE are important and both need proper balancing, not the stupid blanket fixes we get that cover both play styles. Oh yeah, remove the ratio. It sucks!

[Issle 793]

It's not just 31%. Remember that there are freedomers who are not full time pvp players. Those count too. Also PvP servers have more expenses due to war and pvp players are also driving the economy since on average they have higher crafting and casting skills.

 

And besides, one pvp player counts as three freedomers for being awesome

Edited April 22, 2014 by Issle

[Object 281]

So you're saying if the dev team solely focuses on PVP like happens most of the time

 

Just to give you the benefit of the doubt I took a look at the last five threads that were created in the news section.  I know Xanadu is mentioned a few times but I'm just trying to gauge how often the devs are focusing on certain elements and if something is plugged more in news posts then it clearly is more important and more time consuming as Xanadu clearly is.

 

News Update: Work And Progress. Week 15

 

Xanadu test - Pve

Canopy Bed - Aesthetics

Wooden Bench - Aesthetics

Boats - Mechanics

The Tutorial Zone - Both

The Chain link fence - unless it has a real defensive value it won't ever be used for pvp, if it can be archered over then we'll just use low stone walls instead.

Walls - maybe both if they have real defensive values over stone walls.

 

Experience Xanadu!

 

clearly pve

 

Planned changes to Valrei functionality

 

clearly pvp

 

News Update: Work And Progress. Week 14

 

Wurm gets reinforcements - new staff

For all you medieval interior decorators out there - aesthetics

What is Xanadu? - pve

Enclosures Feedback - pve, enclosure rules don't apply at all on pvp servers.

Creature Ai being tweaked - pve

Titles has been updated - both, except for the new 100 titles that can't be attained on epic.

Stag - pve

 

Suggested changes to enclosure and highway rules

 

clearly pve

 

So if you say aesthetics affects both (which I'd argue but whatever) the count is pve 7, pvp 1, aesthetics 4 (titles are mostly aesthetics).  Even if you look even farther back the only 'pvp focused' changes or even discussions have been pvp easy fruits, the rock paper scissors changes to armour/weapons, the valrei mission changes and disintegrate.  Other then that it's all been either PvE focused or changes to the entire game in general.

 

As far as I'm concerned the dev team is doing a good job at mixing this up and I'm not only confused but also a little annoyed at this idea that the devs are focusing solely on pvp and need to stop.

 

They clearly aren't.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Object

[belthize 438]

Well this should be good.

 

Can't get two random Wurm players to agree on the most basic issue,s or even whether an issue is going to absolutely destroy Wurm or is the best thing since buttered popcorn.

 

But this time will likely be different,  I see this thread engendering a lot of rational thought.

 

<grabs buttered popcorn>

Edited April 22, 2014 by belthize

[Judicator 539]

Wow pvp has really been ignored lately. We get nothing but pve updates and new servers. One pvp person brings in much more money than those pve noobs sitting on their 1 guard deeds on their own.

[Sevenless 385]

 

As far as I'm concerned the dev team is doing a good job at mixing this up and I'm not only confused but also a little annoyed at this idea that the devs are focusing solely on pvp and need to stop.

 

They clearly aren't.

 

 

Honestly Object, I don't think people are railing at Rolf most of the time when this issue comes up. Usually the situation is this:

 

PvPers complain the game isn't getting enough PvP updates OR (and this one irks me) a constant badgering to make more PvP servers or convert PvE servers to PvP. And, from their standpoint, most updates are PvE skewed and that seems unfair (they have a personal viewpoint that makes their statements valid from their perspective). They also love PvP and see large populations of players they could be playing with! Since pvp servers tend to suffer a touch from underpopulation it makes sense they'd want access to PvPing other server areas.

 

PvEers retort "Well that's reasonable he focuses on PvE, most of us are PvE". Obviously that's not always so properly worded, especially considering some of the initiating comments from PvPers start off in an aggressive tone. General insinuations by some PvP players that PvE is an inferior playstyle only mixes the pot. This is clearly a case of some bad eggs causing trouble for everyone.

 

Net result: PvPers want updates too. PvEers kind of repeat the mantra that the game should be PvE focused, which annoys PvPers who clearly think PvP is the superior playstyle by and large. Which leads them to clamour for more updates, which restarts this whole cycle since they do indeed seem to be a sub population of the main.

[Gorwst 129]

As a PVPer, you cannot call Xanadu "only PVE". As we saw with Pristine and Release, new servers bring in new players. New players in Wurm ultimately means new PVP players as well. (Not to mention the players who do both PVP and PVE and so build both communities.)

As for aesthetic items, those kinds of things are also a draw for new players. Not as much as a new server or DDOS that gets us a bunch of press, but it's still there. Odds are, you're going to end up getting some of those players in your 1/3 of the playerbase numbers you quoted above.

Then again, the words don't matter. It's like politics or religion; we PVE players hate you PVP players and you PVP players hate us PVE players.

Well, except for the folks I know who do both.

[Dairuka 888]

 

-snip-

 

Did you just count Xanadu 3 times?

Edited April 22, 2014 by Dairuka

[Alec 728]

Inb4 PvE raging so hard so good on OP.

 

I will need popkhorne for Rolfs drama('cuz I think all this PvE vs PvP stuff if totally Rolfs fault and no player should ever get angry at another player cuz of this, just angry cuz Rolf promotes this kind of thing)

[Kegan 3,926]

Not sure what you are on about the only thing i can see is the new server and the enclosures but those are tied together they want a new rule on them before the new server is launched. The rest are for both sides the furniture and new animal models so not sure what you are wanting.

 

Do you want a new PvP server or something?  From what i have seen most pvp players are happy with what they have if he tries to change anything they throw a fit. He is working on the map thing on epic i have seen posts about that. It might not be in the news but look up Rolfs posts most of them are PvP related. His top three that did not involve everyone was..

 

JK missing item handed out

[Epic] home server portal

Planned changes to Valrei functionality

 

So i guess he is focused just fine on pvp too. 

Edited April 22, 2014 by Kegan

[Meridius 80]

*Looks at the dead horse, takes away your stick*

 

Listen, whatever they focus on is what they want to focus on, either based out of desire or most likely, out of resource limits. There are only so many developers for this game and in the MMO market, has to be one of the smallest. Things change, and the limited resources dictate that they work on what they can.

 

If we get an update that seems to benefit one playstyle, the other seems to feel left out, demanding more.

 

Just relax and play the game. Be patient, Wurm is still chugging along. 

[Lithien 268]

Hmmm, how on earth did you get the stag to be PvE when you have an aesthetic option? That was a purely aesthetic update if there ever was one.

 

And removing enclosure rules isn't doing anthing for PvE (yet) - at best it is taking something away from PvE and making it more like PvP (yay???)

 

How is creature AI a PvE update? You don't have creatures on PvP? And so far, all it has done is totally mess everything up - not something that I can possibly see as being FOR PvE (or PVP for that matter), but lets see about that one once they are finished tweaking it (at least I hope they aren't done tweaking it).

[Object 281]

Did you just count Xanadu 3 times?

 

Yes I did, it was mentioned three times so I counted it three times.

 

 

As a PVPer, you cannot call Xanadu "only PVE". As we saw with Pristine and Release, new servers bring in new players. New players in Wurm ultimately means new PVP players as well. (Not to mention the players who do both PVP and PVE and so build both communities.)

 

Using that logic then you'd have to say any change that Rolf does that the pvp community doesn't like is good for the PvE community because it'll potentially get someone from Epic/Chaos to move to Freedom permanently.  If you want to include all pve features as pvp features (like making the stag) then I really get why people think that there are too many new additions that are exclusive to pvp because nothing would really be exclusive to pve anymore.

 

Sadly though this is not how things work, Xanada may indirectly affect PvP but I'm not really making this point, I'm specifically targeting things that directly influence both pvp and pve.

 

 

How is creature AI a PvE update? You don't have creatures on PvP? And so far, all it has done is totally mess everything up - not something that I can possibly see as being FOR PvE (or PVP for that matter), but lets see about that one once they are finished tweaking it (at least I hope they aren't done tweaking it).

 

 

I could say the same thing about some of the pvp updates as well, some of them didn't seem to promote pvp at all, a few even deterred it, but the fact still remains they are pvp focused updates that dev(s) spent time on.  The argument being made here is this idea that the devs are solely focusing on pvp and haven't been looking at pve at all.

 

This entire thread is here to point out that people are making comments like what Whykillme said "..the dev team solely focuses on PVP ...most of the time..." and I believe it's an unfair assumption.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Object

[fatboy 448]

Pve pays the bills, brings overall more money in. If pvp wants more updates, Rolf needs more money. Proven fact 70%+ of that average players play mainly pve. Thus pve content is needed to attract more players to get more revenue, which is then use to hire more staff, Sure pvp feels the pain. In the long run if staff builds up enough, pvp will massively benifit as then they might have there own pvp focused team. Now i bash on rolf daily. However, judging by wat so far hes up to, Hes trying to boost revenue, He has been doing some pvp changes, and did alot, IE adding the same spells to All priests, Removin safe mines.  Effecting a pvp raid, etc. Yea, ya fail to show that one. Yall forget this is still a small indy team, ###### takes time, so wat seems like 1 side is gettin more love, is actually little bits being worked on each month. And Pvp,  hell, if you all even remotely say that ur fixs are easyones, ya need smacked. We all know pvp needs a massive overhaul, WHich means it would suck up deving times for months and months and that means rolf eventually loses revenue as he needs content for pve to draw in new revenue. Once hes able to get perminant devs to work solely on pvp, then you all will in heaven. But face the facts, pvp is a tough one to fix, deal with, Pve is easy. (also xandu, hahah, funny, some of ya pvpers dont realize when devs make xandu work, that means u can actually have pvp again, its a massive stress test, that means the final result is a new map sure. However a new system in place for all servers to help with local issues when people gather.    All got too much wogic and need more logic. ^^.  But, i think 1 month should be pure pve  fixs, another pvp, so on. then it would be fair. but meh my whole 2 cents. Im fatboy no one listens to my rants :-P

[fatboy 448]

I Have Spoken!, mwhahahahahaha!

[Object 281]

stuff

 

Sorry, I didn't read anything you said.

 

 

[Kagrenac 812]

 

Not sure what you are on about the only thing i can see is the new server and the enclosures but those are tied together they want a new rule on them before the new server is launched. The rest are for both sides the furniture and new animal models so not sure what you are wanting.

 

Do you want a new PvP server or something?  From what i have seen most pvp players are happy with what they have if he tries to change anything they throw a fit. He is working on the map thing on epic i have seen posts about that. It might not be in the news but look up Rolfs posts most of them are PvP related. His top three that did not involve everyone was..

 

JK missing item handed out

[Epic] home server portal

Planned changes to Valrei functionality

 

So i guess he is focused just fine on pvp too. 

 

Rolf makes post about pvp stuff because he does things that he feels he needs to defend like the disintegrate change, handing out the item etc. (aka stuff most pvp players don't want him to be doing, ninjanerfs/changes etc.)

 

The planned changes to Valrei thing resulted in Rolf changing it and introducing more problems, while the problems that have existed since epic started still do (ignoring most of the stuff posted in the thread).

 

People want changes, but all the suggestions for improvements basically get ignored, Kings can't even change their titles even though it can't be a hard fix to do.

[Druidnature 1,118]

how about BOTH sides just stop going at it?.....

 

/sigh.

 

Also, for the record, I haven't seen a single flower pot either on PVE......except the one I made and it died way to fast >_> lol

[Weponsmith 36]

nvm thought I did something fancy.

But I didn't

Edited April 22, 2014 by Weponsmith

[Sevenless 385]

how about BOTH sides just stop going at it?.....

 

/sigh.

 

Also, for the record, I haven't seen a single flower pot either on PVE......except the one I made and it died way to fast >_> lol

 

With this community? XD never

 

And my alliance mates have like 15-20 flower pots. No clue how they're upkeeping em.

[Kadore 926]

Wow pvp has really been ignored lately. We get nothing but pve updates and new servers. One pvp person brings in much more money than those pve noobs sitting on their 1 guard deeds on their own.

 Of course you have boxes and boxes of date to back up your claims ... for once it would be great to cut the ###### from both sides and agree overlapping code does have bad effects on both play types and understand why some like the idea of split code so Rolf doesn't hit add content and vacation for 3 weeks in Spain after he's finished.

[Hussars 511]

Yes I did, it was mentioned three times so I counted it three times.

 

 

 

Using that logic then you'd have to say any change that Rolf does that the pvp community doesn't like is good for the PvE community because it'll potentially get someone from Epic/Chaos to move to Freedom permanently.  If you want to include all pve features as pvp features (like making the stag) then I really get why people think that there are too many new additions that are exclusive to pvp because nothing would really be exclusive to pve anymore.

 

Sadly though this is not how things work, Xanada may indirectly affect PvP but I'm not really making this point, I'm specifically targeting things that directly influence both pvp and pve.

 

 

 

 

I could say the same thing about some of the pvp updates as well, some of them didn't seem to promote pvp at all, a few even deterred it, but the fact still remains they are pvp focused updates that dev(s) spent time on.  The argument being made here is this idea that the devs are solely focusing on pvp and haven't been looking at pve at all.

 

This entire thread is here to point out that people are making comments like what Whykillme said "..the dev team solely focuses on PVP ...most of the time..." and I believe it's an unfair assumption.

 

Not picking a side on this, but the problem remains that content added to PVE is by default added to PVP, while content added to PVP is not always added to PVE.  Sure there is a reason for it, but out of mechanic rules (enclosures) shouldn't be on that list.

 

Looking at your list (and adding a few others):

• The Xanadu test was specifically stated to see how far they could push the code base they're working on, so could in fact be supportive of PVP as well as PVE servers in the future.  While mentioned to be for PVE usage (this specific buildout not to include PVP) Rolf has said he is considering revisiting the setup of the server size/mass, and nothing in the code base (to my knowledge) requires an island added to be PVP or PVE, other than the "can_attack_player" type tags. - (Wash until final decision is announced to never support this type of land mass in PVP)

Aesthetic changes - again like the out of mechanic policies, is a wash, as it has the same impact on PVE as PVP, which is to add clutter/personality/"style" to those who want to use them - (Wash)

Add - Potential graphic changes to Tall walls adding the ability to see past the wall could be +/- for PVP depending on personal opinion, but ultimately impacts both PVP and PVE just in different context (PVP strats & graphically vs PVE graphically only) (Wash)

Boat mechanics - impact both PVP and PVE usage of boats (Wash)

Creature AI - actually impacts both PVE and PVP (just like pet/dominate changes did) (Wash)

Add - Ratio - impacts both PVP and PVE (In some cases can be argued to have hurt PVP more than PVE, but was intended as a hording "nerf" regardless of which play-style you choose) (Wash)

Add - Sorcery - PVP only, considered broken in some/most cases, not available to PVE currently (PVP- for now)

Valrei Functionality - PVP only (PVP)

This is why I continue to say PVP vs PVE is a nonsensical argument.  Nothing that I can think of added to the game only applies to PVE gameplay, those same items are just as available to PVP gameplay.  It doesn't mater how you play, if you choose to not use those items, it doesn't mean no one else also in the same play-style (PVP or PVE) won't also.

 

The few things that get added which are PVP only, are so because they are intended specifically for PVP (i.e. sorcery) or the Epic servers (Valrei fixes/epic mob spawns).

 

Honestly, I'd be happy for a game that stays stable between builds and a real patch notes release, which to me, is a bigger impact than PVP vs PVE epeen waiving.

 

::edit insert:: As from a dev time standpoint, it makes sense to work on things that impact the most users first (look at everything that is listed as a Wash on the list), for the very reason that it impacts the most players.  Problem is, we have a community divided between very vocal PVP and very vocal PVE both wanting dev time dedicated to their chosen gameplay type.

 

So from a dev point of view of where no matter what you do, you'll be crucified, which would you prioritize?

 

As for value per customer, look a the market/bank value for the servers, per customer bank value (i.e. amount of coin purchased/on the servers) is actually pretty damned close last time I looked.  Even posted the numbers around the time P&R launched, and while PVE has more players paying premium, both sides were worth about the same in monetized value at the time of that last post.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Hussars

[Druidnature 1,118]

I paid 500+ in silver past (3?) months, more pve updates plzzzz

/hint that was sarcasm >_>

But I don't care if pve or pvp is making more money, has more players, or X player thinks pve or pvp is better for what ever stupid reason they can come up with.

Devs spend time working on both, LATELY it's been more pve it seems, however, 3 months ago it was pure pvp updates every week. (Or very close to "pure".

I'm sure in a few weeks it will switch back again, I believe devs work on multiple things at the same time, so I'm sure there working on pve stuff, as well as pvp stuff.

It's extremely stupid to say pvp shouldn't exist/get many updates.

It's also extremely stupid to say it's "superior" to pve and that everyone's a carebear.

Log off the forums, go play the game, enjoy it before the next update for your side of the fence that screws something else up for weeks.