An Epic Problem

[Fireflyb 920]

An Epic Problem

 

***Disclaimer: I am a Jenn-Kellon player on the Epic cluster, with not much PvP experience, so while I am trying to be open-minded and unbiased, there are many things I don't know/haven't experienced, especially about Chaos, and other kingdoms on Epic; this isn't supposed to be about kingdoms.***

 

TL;DR: Hey Rolf, the PvP environment on Elevation sucks!  Maybe try implementing a server with landscape-based, conquerable chokepoints and campaign-style warfare.

 

I think the majority of players on Epic (focusing mostly on Elevation here, as it is the "Main PvP Server" for the Epic cluster feel that currently there is a huge lack of PvP content on Elevation.  The skirmishes forum thread (main thread for discussing PvP/linking deaths tabs and logs) is filled with players blaming the opposite kindgoms (or kingdom) for lack of action/fun.

 

Idea:

 

Have a server north of Elevation that is approximately the size of Chaos (or bigger, w/e) where there are 3 main kingdoms (or whatever) with similar kingdom mechanics as on Elevation/Chaos, but there is a totally different style of gameplay that involves a huge emphasis on territory, expansion, and incorporates some type of campaign format for warfare.  Link to original thread about this kind of setup by Karellean: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/80250-epic-campaign-server-concept-pvp/  I am also going to shamelessly insert Klaa's suggestion for ley lines into this idea: ;http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/100310-ley-lines-pvp-conquerable-structures/

 

This server's PvP would be based on expanding a kingdom's territory, trying to conquer other's deeds so as to gain that territory, and gaining the benefits from that territory.

 

I am bringing in aspects of games like WWIIOL and Planetside into this idea; the entire map would be covered with chokepoints/capturable areas which would provide resources for players, as well as hopefully provide some sort of momentum, so that the entire map would be conquerable by one side, and possibly.  IMO, this would be a huge improvement over the current system, where people don't have enough of a reason to go out and fight other players.

 

Sub-Idea:

 

An addition to the above idea could be a total removal of preset kingdoms for the server, and making it a huge map (4x Chaos?  more?) where players spawn into the map as one default kingdom (Freedom?) and then can choose to create alliances based on villages, and basically acquire and hold sovereignty by capturing chokepoints and placing deeds/etc. in them (or something.)  This would allow large groups of players to settle in many spots throughout the map, and because of the size, only really interact with other alliances close to them.  This server would of course be 100% FFA PvP.

 

 

Quick background(blabla):

 

At the moment the two main PvP servers (I'm not counting home servers because raiding isn't exactly a regular thing, and intra-kingdom PvP is punishable by banishment of accounts) are Elevation (Epic Cluster) and Chaos (Freedom Cluster.)

 

From what I've seen of Chaos, it's got a huge land mass with more of a territorial aspect of warfare, and even then things progress slowly (again, idk much about daily Chaos PvP/gameplay so I won't talk much about it lol.)

 

On Elevation, on the other hand, the server is very small (2048x2048 tiles) and each kingdom has their own little corner of the map, with the hota steppe in the center.  There is very little territorial progression, as the map is tiny, and players don't see much cause in spending hours catapulting/digging through defenses of deeds into a part of the map that they won't occupy anyway.

 

The main issue seems to be that Elevation is a tiny map bulit on the idea of kingdoms wanting to expand their territory, which doesn't happen.  There's no reason to go raid an enemy except for the lulz and possible loot, which is ok but most players simply won't go out and do this, and there are not really any other options beside that (at least that happen more than once or twice.)

 

If you have thoughts or suggestions to this idea, please post them!  IMO, Epic could really use a totally different style/inspiration for warfare, and if you think this idea sucks, or have more to add to it, please post about it!  I didn't provide many details, so feel free to add some if you like the idea!

[Xallo 2,599]

Epic has faster skill-gain and a much more "who cares" kind of PvP, in my opinion. Therefore I believe that that itself warrants a larger PvP map for the server.

[Cornchips 3,037]

the only thing about having more than 1 server on the cluster as a 'battleground' sort of place is people wouldn't care about one or the other, so you've gotta give up elevation or re purpose elevation to this, but actual objectives (battlecamps are this idea in a way, but they mean 0 in actual accomplishments) that make it worth taking would be a fun thing

[iboughtenthat 519]

Pvp is honestly dull. Raiding is ok with a really small group. I'd like to see a better combat system and a better map with more pvp objectives would be nice

[Oreo 5,793]

I'd reprem for this.

: D

[IloveWurm 90]

One giant server (xanadu?) for PVP where people choose their kingdoms. There are 'core' kingdoms that branch from the center of the map and then stop at the 'wilderness' where players make their own kingdoms.

 

Similar to EVE online type sovereignty would be an idea worth considering.

[Propheteer 7,139]

Epic was fine when we were supposed to get resets.

 

The problem with PvP is that it becomes too stagnant, rolf also split up our also small playerbase even more by releasing epic to begin with, and the homeservers on top of that.

 

 

HOWEVER

 

If this was done, do something similar to like WvWvW and PvP in GW2/ESO.

 

Make chokepoints on the map with artifacts. Remove the useless ones and make the primary ones something like the crown of mag, ear of vynora, finger of fo, scale of lib. Whatever kingdom holds this artifact gains the territory of the checkpoint and gets a massive bonus per artifact, like skillgain bonus or something stupidly strong that doesn't necessarily apply to pvp to actively ENCOURAGE or even REQUIRE the other kingdoms to fight for it.

 

Give more bonuses for the amount of land held too.

 

 

Rework valrei to remove the mobs that spawn, make it so every time a scenario ends, the map is reset and to win a scenario your kingdom needs three of the four artifacts + win by valrei. Fix the karma costs to move gods and make it so each kingdom only has one god and let him/her be a neutral god (either mag, fo, or vyn).

 

Buff the Wurm, and if the Wurm wins the scenario, there is a skill reset.

 

 

Make this replace the current Epic cluster and im all in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also agree with cornchips post below mine.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Propheteer

[Cornchips 3,037]

The BEST solution is to find a way to get all 4 servers on epic moved to 1, the most fair thing is to open a new one north and give everyone a set amount of time to move before you're teleported there, you signed up on a pvp server so don't get scared away when issues are taken to increase pvp

[WTSsomestuff 16]

Wipe the ###### cluster already. And I mean totally wipe it.

 

The faster skill gain/skill curve was supposed to facilitate the notion that a fresh server would come around from time to time. Currently, the cluster is saturated with high end items, high end accounts, and mega-fortresses that aren't worth even thinking about raiding. It's also flooded with a ton of cry babies who cling to their pixels waaaaayyyy too tight. IMO, the Epic cluster should be wiped clean on an 18 month rotation, with a couple of different maps waiting in the wings to keep it challenging.

 

Want to end the senseless circle of stagnation with respect to the PvP on Epic, do this. Otherwise, you are just kicking the can down the road in hopes that the next big idea will solve the problem.

[Propheteer 7,139]

Wipe the ###### cluster already. And I mean totally wipe it.

 

The faster skill gain/skill curve was supposed to facilitate the notion that a fresh server would come around from time to time. Currently, the cluster is saturated with high end items, high end accounts, and mega-fortresses that aren't worth even thinking about raiding. It's also flooded with a ton of cry babies who cling to their pixels waaaaayyyy too tight. IMO, the Epic cluster should be wiped clean on an 18 month rotation, with a couple of different maps waiting in the wings to keep it challenging.

 

Want to end the senseless circle of stagnation with respect to the PvP on Epic, do this. Otherwise, you are just kicking the can down the road in hopes that the next big idea will solve the problem.

 

this was how it was supposed to be......

 

 

only thing i ask for this is that people are refunded the founding costs + whats left of upkeep of their deeds and their traders.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Propheteer

[platinumteef 2,205]

Wipe the ###### cluster already. And I mean totally wipe it.

 

The faster skill gain/skill curve was supposed to facilitate the notion that a fresh server would come around from time to time. Currently, the cluster is saturated with high end items, high end accounts, and mega-fortresses that aren't worth even thinking about raiding. It's also flooded with a ton of cry babies who cling to their pixels waaaaayyyy too tight. IMO, the Epic cluster should be wiped clean on an 18 month rotation, with a couple of different maps waiting in the wings to keep it challenging.

 

Want to end the senseless circle of stagnation with respect to the PvP on Epic, do this. Otherwise, you are just kicking the can down the road in hopes that the next big idea will solve the problem.

 

All of these posts are great. Agree with all of them. 

 

I think total resets every 12-18 months would be awesome as well.

[Fireflyb 920]

From what I can tell, Elevation has turned into Chaos, but it's even suckier because it's so tiny and nothing every really happens. I mean really, what's the point of Elevation? I figure that's what Rolf should be addressing, because unless there is a major change/addition to the idea of PvP and how it's set up, Wurm PvP is just going to be flooded with stupid, meaningless attempts to whip up PvP like HotA and battlecamps...

[Oreo 5,793]

Nah guys.. heres some moon metal instead.

 

For reals tho, Epic stalemated faster than Chaos because of the skill gain increase and the size of the map.  'Bout 2-3 times as fast.  Whoa.

Not to mention Affliction is dead and I have no clue why its even considered a server.  It's like Pluto.  Nobody cares about it anymore.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Oreo

[Arkhir 280]

I'd like to see changes done in this area just as much as in the combat mechanics. Currently PvP just is, like nobody thought on it, it just exists. It's like Rolf only made attacking others possible, added some sort of tournament that grants its winners (nota bene possesing fastest horses, and/or numbers) with moon metal and enforces promotes some fight over it.

 

Here's what I'm talking about, as the problem lies within sole game mechanics as well:

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/93815-pvp-easy-fruits/?p=1012458

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/93815-pvp-easy-fruits/?p=1013155

 

 

Periodic wipes won't help for long, since you'll get periodic stalemates as well. We need some sort of mechanic to promote enforce PvP on PvP servers as well as new combat mechanics (simplest would be rockpaperscissors, look over those links).

Also - full wipes would make people leave game and ruin economy. The problem with stalemates is not in player accounts being too strong, it is in how game works and how combat works.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Arkhir

[Jenshiye 146]

Active population on Epic servers is relatively tiny. I would say close the home servers and make them all try live on Elevation.

[WTSsomestuff 16]

Full wipes will not make people leave the game. If that was the case, then why did so many people try out Epic to begin with, knowing full well they would be starting on a fresh account? Ask anyone that was around at the time of release, they'll tell you it was likely their best experience in the game to this day.

 

Want some things to promote PvP? Add incentive.

 

Make artifacts go to ground every three months after being uncovered, no exceptions.

200 Slope dirtwalls...anything more and you have attachment issues, with respect to pixels.

Rock/paper/scissors the armor and weapons.

Buff pets back to normal.

Remove the critter ratio limitations.

Make Meditation simpler and with easily achievable benchmarks with buffs that aren't earth shattering. Right now, it's a steaming pile of horseshit that only the true turbonerd wants to ###### with.

Add an endgame to the Valrei map with goals that are well defined and can actually be met.

DOCUMENT THE ###### GAME.

End the grind (pretty much done with the skill gain/skill curve) and take the handcuffs off of the actual PvP atmosphere.

 

There are a ton of things that can be done to improve the situation on Epic, in concert with periodic full wipes. Basically undo everything Rolf has decided to ###### up in the past few years with one restriction after another.

[Radni 1,089]

+1 to the OP. The pvp sucks. A reason to fight, IE choke points and ley lines would be EPIC

[Heboric 808]

For myself I could easily live with these ideas, and a full wipe.

 

The problem is that I know for a fact that quite a number of the more active players that I talk to have all said they would immediately quit if it happened. They all say they wouldn't start over. This is actually fairly clear when one sees how many these days don't want to build a charachter themselves - at least not from scratch - they buy them.

 

On the other hand - it seems that quite a lot of players have already quit, so it's fast becoming a "damned if we don't / damned if we do" type thing.

 

For sure though.....simply coasting along with heads firmly in the sand is no answer.

[Cornchips 3,037]

everyone is trying to change game mechanics like skills and meditation where all that has to be done is pvp objectives and chokepoints and the likes

[Object 281]

Full wipes will not make people leave the game. If that was the case, then why did so many people try out Epic to begin with, knowing full well they would be starting on a fresh account? Ask anyone that was around at the time of release, they'll tell you it was likely their best experience in the game to this day.

The problem is that I know for a fact that quite a number of the more active players that I talk to have all said they would immediately quit if it happened.

 

On the other hand - it seems that quite a lot of players have already quit, so it's fast becoming a "damned if we don't / damned if we do" type thing.

 

For sure though.....simply coasting along with heads firmly in the sand is no answer.

 

Interesting posts by Rolf back in the day when epic was first created.

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/54651-quench-epic-reset-rumours/

 

So I'm not sure if the whole reset of epic was a rumour or not in the beginning but I personally thought that's what was going to happen and was a little disappointed that it didn't.  I personally wouldn't mind a full reset (skills and map) but would be satisfied with either a full map reset of all of epic or just a reset of Elevation every 6-12 months.

[Kagrenac 812]

fix valrei+spells pls

[Fireflyb 920]

fix valrei+spells pls

While those are important (or spells are, at least), it seems like actually having an environment where PvP is easily accessible would be more beneficial than fixing spells etc.

[Kagrenac 812]

While those are important (or spells are, at least), it seems like actually having an environment where PvP is easily accessible would be more beneficial than fixing spells etc.

Well if valrei actually functioned+missions were tweaked, it would be a great incentive for pvp, and if the spells actually were decent people would want them (and need karma for them, going out for more missions).

 

The missions would need to be reworked a bit though,

[belthize 438]

I realize I'm no longer on Epic (Thorsen) so my opinion may not matter much but here it is anyway.   I've been thinking about how it could be better since long before I left, since before it launched in fact.  I always thought it was a mistake to have template kingdoms instead of just player alliances and thought the multiple servers was a bad ideas as well.

 

I'm also not a fan of the reward systems for PvP, it just makes the best side that much better and encourages folks to flock to the apparent 'winning' side but I think there's a simple solution similar to what's being suggested.

 

The one thing most players covet more than anything is character skill.  The thing they hate the most is losing stuff so you end up with folks sitting on deed grinding away.  Since an incentive has to exist  best to make skill gain multiplier rate the reward for PvP and make leaving deed the risk.

 

Some things I think would be required to make it work

• Make a better map with multiple initial spawn points.  As suggested make it interesting, mountains, valleys, rivers etc.  Ele kind of sucks.
  
• Get rid of 2x skill gain (replaced below as incentive)
  
• No kingdoms period, alliances are plenty good.
  
• Which means no kingdom titles (drama fodder IMO, let players decide their roll not some title)
  
• Rework or ditch the scenarios
  
• No battle zones, HOTA or other gimmicks to encourage pvp.  If they're needed then there's a game design flaw.
  
• No artifacts (maybe just me, they don't add anything but drama anyway and they're really just an 'ooh shiny' distraction)
  
• Villages can be members of alliances and set ally, neutral, war status with other villages, other alliances and individuals (really only for red/green/blue hover effect, not much point otherwise)
  
• Better rock/paper/scissors effect for maul/axe/sword vs plate/chain/leather (this just needs to be done regardless)
  
• Various mine fixes, e.g. reinforced mines are bashable, mine doors are pickable etc
  
• Towers are owned by villages and can be captured (original MR/JK/Hots template is selected by builder for visual effect only)
  
• Towers mark territory owned by a village and to a lesser extent its alliance (read on) just like they do currently for kingdoms
  
• Tower guards being attacked show up in village event messages and possibly alliance.
  
• Allow villages to build and put player names on portals just like a house writ so new villagers can join straight from GV or Freedom servers. (This was a big sore point for me with Rolf, I argued it was needed, it was just too hard to recruit new players when they had to trek half way across the server, if there are no template kingdoms then something like this has to exist).
  
• Allow people to be whatever priest type they want, Vyn, Mag, Fo, Lib.
  

The PvP incentive comes from towers

 

• Every time a tower is built, destroyed or captured calculate the ratio of the land controlled by a village vs total controlled land server wide (don't count uncontrolled land) divided by the percentage of the total population their village represents.   So if they control 10% of the controlled land with 10% of the population that's 1 (10/10).  If they control 20% of the land with 5% of the population that's 4.
  
• Multiple that by 10, that's their boost to all skill gains by people in their village.  In the first case they get a 10% boost, in the second case they get a 40% boost.  If you manage to control 50% of the server with 5% of the population that's a 2x skill gain boost.
  
• Take the average of all village boosts in an alliance and divide by the number of villages and add that to the multipier as well.  So  3 villages of 5%, 12% and 10% would add 9%.  So their total skill gain boost is 14, 21 and 19% respectively.  
  

This would have several effects. 

 

• Since skill gain is based on total controlled land not total land then after an initial rush there's much more reward for taking somebody's land than taking uncontrolled land.  There's still some advantage to spamming towers but it's much faster to hurt your opponent and help yourself.
  
• Since skill gain is based on area percentage / pop percentage there's a disincentive to having the biggest village.  You want as small a village as you can control territory with.  You can zerg if you want but you'll be gaining skill much more slowly than others.
  
• Same goes for alliance.  Having random extra villages dragging you down that aren't contributing either materials, offensively or  defensively is a waste.  This will hopefully act as a disincentive to big zerg alliances as well.
  
• If one village or alliance appears to be winning take their land.   If they're winning because they're better then get better.
  
• Instead of 1 or 2 enemies (i.e. kingdoms) there's potentially 10 or 20 enemy villages.  Much broader selection tailored better to the smaller population.
  
• There's never really a stale mate scenario, later in the game when skilling gets slow is exactly when you'll want more territory.
  
• If scenarios are left in figure out some way to make them interesting minus the weird random holes in the ground.
  

I'd suggest connecting it to the PvE servers rather than have it a separate server but require new characters. The new start plus faster skill gain means old characters won't have an advantage but new players trying Wurm after launch will have an incentive (faster skill gain) to at least try it.

 

The numbers are pretty simple, they can be tweaked up or down to create faster or slower development and to create more or less territory control incentive.  Want lots of 3 man villages or a few 50 man villages, just tweak the numbers a bit.  Humans are great at min/maxing and will quickly adjust to the new optimum.

 

A lot of it is just based on hooks already in the game that weren't fully developed (like kingdom influence).

 

This doesn't really work for a rapid transient server like epic is sometimes thought of.  It's more of a wild territory control remake but I do think it would get folks out and about more.  It'd also create more interesting alliance vs alliance, village vs village dynamic.  It seems like half the pop of Epic has been Lomaner, Mongols, JK, MR or Hots at one point or another, in some cases all 5 (or even 6 or 7 counting new PMKs).  People want to move around, this makes it easier for them to.

 

 

To me it's attractive because it's just basic wurm plus territory control minus all the cruft over the years that got welded on.

Edited April 22, 2014 by belthize

[Object 281]

^ This idea...it's crazy, it's hard for me to agree with all of it, but it might actually work.