sunsvortex

Members
 View Profile  See their activity

  • Content Count

    1,132

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    1

Posts posted by sunsvortex

  1. Posted

    This might interest some. Might not interest others, just throwing it out there as an idea that worked for us.

     

    We removed our server from all lists back at the end of last Nov, or maybe first of Dec iirc - "you cant see us and you never will be able to". We went to invitation only as we got wayy too many undesirables when we first opened it up. We work it like this -

    We had 8 initial players, each of those players got 3 slots. They can use those slots as invitations to people they know. They are responsible for those players. If players they are responsible for cause issues, the player that caused the issue is removed and the responsible player is docked a slot or more depending on circumstances. After its been shown that players that were invited under those slots are decent people they were given slots and they invited people in. This allows for a very high quality server with extremely minimal player disruptions, most if not all of which are mistakes and can be readily fixed without issue. I honestly have no idea what our current player count is as I never bother to look or care, but I think there were like 87+ last time I logged in a couple days ago, actively playing, running around having a good time. Since we instated this I have not seen a single issue that could not be easily and readily fixed or made right.

     

    So what does all this have to do with player count - Player count doesnt matter - a high quality server with decent people is what matters. The option to blacklist servers based on x criteria is a mountain of problems just waiting to make a gigantic mess.

     

    People are going to inflate numbers, they are going to cheat, they are going to do all manner of nefarious things that will be offensive to someone. Welcome to life. You cant code this out. You can however be a bit more selective about your servers reputation, be more selective and sensitive to how you deal with issues that are sure to arise and above all , make sure people are having a good time. Playing Wurm is a long term kind of thing, most people are simply not into a long term commitment to a game, so if they are looking just at numbers, odds are they are not going to be there long anyways.

     

    If you have a good server, if your server is appealing, you will get and retain players - If your server is dependable and fair - you will get and retain players, If your server is a place to enjoy the time you spend there - you will get and retain players. word of mouth, a bit of plugging here and there, it all adds up - but you as a server owner - its all up to you.

     

    Player numbers are meaningless if you have a desirable server. Do we have the highest population server out there? Not even close. Do we care? Not in the slightest - its not a competition, its a game where we like to do what we like to do. If all someone is looking at are the number of players, do you really want them on your server?

     

    Just saying -  Its a different perspective - Might work for some people, might not for others.

  2. Posted

    1 hour ago, Eltaran said:

    I really have absolutely no idea regarding code or coding (Turbo Pascal was the most advanced I ever did, and nowadays VBA scripts are the best I can do :P) but isn't the basic idea of using an engine like Unity that you get rid of a lot of the basic stuff on the underlying framework that you'd otherwise have to do, optimize and redo on your own all the time? Wouldn't that really free up a lot of developer time in the long run?

     

    yes

  3. Posted

    10 hours ago, Nappy said:

     

    For clarity I am not stating that a new game engine wouldn't make a difference. Perhaps it would, I personally don't know.

     

    What I meant by my comment was if I was a small game company with extremely limited resources and I had to make a focused effort to make a direction change then I would prioritize fixing the middle-end game parts for a bigger portion of the player base over fixing an engine. Let's say that all of your estimates are correct and execution happened exactly like you propose so that it's done in six months. 

     

    The problem is momentum, right now momentum appears to be swinging in the direction of a smaller game population rather then the opposite. If you want to swing things the other way then you have to continue moving things to the positive side. The way to do this initially is with all the small fixes they have been making:

     

    - Get rid of quality of life complaints in the game

    - Adopt as many WU mods as make sense

    - Continue to get rid of bugs in both WO and WU

    - Enhance the WU offering to see if you can continue to expand the WU sales (offsets WO premium losses)

     

    Other things they should consider are:

     

    - Merge all PVP servers in WO into one server. Do something reasonable to bring epic skill inline with Chaos skills. All of the WU servers are also suffering from lack of PVP population so WO has a real chance at getting it all back if they do it right

    - Take a page from WU. Why does every WO server have to have the same exact skill/action timer? Consider splitting current freedom into multiple skill/action gain clusters

    - Figure out how to import a deed planner deed to a WO server so that people could have easy migration between clusters etc

     

    Personally I would have loved to play on the old pristine/release cluster when it was a separate cluster. I would also love to play on a survival server where I start with nothing and have to skill up from there.

     

    ~Nappy

     

    But this is exactly my point - everything your listing is the same approach that has been used for years. This approach simply has not ever worked beyond keeping a pulse to the game. Thats it. Nothing more.

    Why should I believe that its going to do anything different now? The best we can hope for is a flattening out of the numbers with some short spikes in pop as new content is released, that will slowly drain away.

    If were to use WU sales to continue to offset losses then you have to continually develop for it. Ok, according to Budda there are 3 people on it and they are volunteers, which according to him cannot be counted on for very valid reasons, they are after all volunteers, so they are not going to be working full time on it. This is all according to Budda - so now we have WU being put into the same paradigm as WO. Not enough devs/ not enough time.

    There will always be this fight for dev time between WO and WU and, WU, per Rolf, will loose this fight as WO is the priority.  This to me is a no win scenario. It sounds like its personal.

     

    So all im saying is, well solve the common issue between both. Not Enough Time - If we bite the bullet and move to a real honest to god game engine - you then start getting ways and means to move off the treadmill by making developers more efficient. You have structure, you have support, you have a much larger labor pool as both Unity and Unreal are extremely popular, you have a collision system that works, no more months at a time trying to figure out how to do flying, jumping or bridges or anything else that requires collision. You have all new classes for combat so everyone can have what they have all asked for for years, art assets from the asset store or for that matter anywhere - Right out of the box. All these things plus a lot lot more can be realized just by moving to something that allready supports it.

    Yeah its going to take a bit, but when you start talking about ROI, scalability, multiple platforms, efficiency,content, support, labor pools, training -its all there. But Java (The current Wurm Structure Base) can do all this so why waste the time and money and suffer through all the frustration - because If Java can do it -  then the devs either havent had the time to build all those things in because there is not enough time or they simply dont have the skills to exploit Java to that degree. In either scenario , in all these years we havent seen any of those things, is there some reason to believe we ever will sitting on Java? Not in my mind.

    Im not saying at all that the things you listed would not be a good thing to do - Im saying that all those things you listed would be that much better on a different platform.

     

  4. Posted

    1 hour ago, Nappy said:

    I have been reading through this thread for awhile now. It's made me think more and more about root cause. 

     

    I don't think a new engine is the key thing to focus on at this time.

     

    I keep recalling reading the original vision premise of Wurm. I no longer have a link to it and from memory it went something like this:

     

    You arrive in the game. You learn to survive with basic skills. With time you gain better skills and do crafting etc. As more time passes you become engaged in PVP activities.

     

    I think we need more of that kind of thinking, storyline progression with many more possible paths.

     

    So instead of that linear path described above there are paths for traders, crafters, explorers, fighters. Nothing hard-coded so that people are stuck on a path however more a case of making sure the supporting pieces are in place for anyone who heads in that direction.

     

    For example:

     

    Start game -> basic survival -> exploring -> shipping business

    Start game -> basic survival -> hunting -> fighting

    Start game -> villager -> farming -> cook

     

    Right now there is skill grinding, people big things and PVP.

     

    To retain people you need them to have things to do that keep the game fun for them. That's what this is all about.

    Let me ask you this then -when is the right time? In all honesty, there will never be a right time.

    The problem is, anything big enough to move the needle in a positive direction will be deemed  -too big /not enough dev time/= not enough time. So it all goes right back to the same thing. Sure you can put some smaller content in and give short term distraction, but its the same thing over and over again...its still the treadmill. If there were in my mind any other way to go to do it I would be pushing it instead of this. I knew this would be an uphill battle because it steps all over the established paradigms. It steps all over everything...but it needs to be done. If we dont move away from it and to a real engine, ....I just dont understand what everyone thinks will happen. Do all these people think were just going to magically get new subs one day? One day for no reason were going to check the graphs and they will be climbing steadily? It takes effort to get those things to move in the direction needed. If the projects that have the best hope of getting us going in that direction are always deemed to take too much time, then its a forever treadmill. I want off of it and the only way off it is to push hard.

     

      Sooner or later you have to start addressing fundamental problems on a fundamental level. Its tough...on everyone....but that does not take away from the need to do it. Just because its hard to do, doesnt mean it shouldnt be done, just because its going to put people in some uncomfortable positions, doesnt mean it should not be done. Nothing worthwhile was ever easy. If it was we would already be there.

     

     

  6. Posted

    1 minute ago, Retrograde said:

    The fact you say this does show that code isnt your thing. just because they both have java in the name doesnt mean they translate.

     

    I think you're missing one key point, unity does not mean pretty, java does not mean bad, you are pulling from assumptions and misinformation.

     

    I get you want Wurm to look awesome, but you really are making it clear that you do not know what you are talking about.

     

    Your desire to help is cool, but misguided

    Well in a sense you are right - I just started doing Java due to WU - I use Java Script fairly often on some specific parts to manipulate web browsers and for me and the people I know, it translates pretty easily. Ok, for you maybe not  - fine - who cares, It has no bearing on solving the issue, just yet another excuse to pile on top of the endless ones of why NOT to do it. I couch it under complacency and cynicism. It seems like your trying to turn this into some sort of "the developers dont have the skills to do what needs to be done." Nope - Im not biting. I could go there, but it does no good and moves the conversation away from the point -  fixing the NOT ENOUGH TIME problem.

  7. Posted

    5 minutes ago, Zerocool said:

     

    Would you stop saying this please? They are really nothing alike.

    Ok Java Skills Translate to Javascript skills very easily - better?

  8. Posted · Edited by sunsvortex

    20 minutes ago, Warlander said:

    Just keep in mind that Unity prices are per developer, not per game/company. Also, cost is not only measured in money, but also in time and knowledge (mastering language and its environment can take from 2 to 5 years of everyday use - and even after this time you still constantly get better and better). Look - I do not want for this to sound like im attacking your skills or you personally because its just not what I want to do or the point - Java skills =  Java Script Skills, Lots of people know C#, Every College in the US has a bloody Unity program going on now and everyone and thier brother are picking it up and running with it. I am assuming its something similar in Europe In terms of cost -you and the rest of the devs get to put UU development in your CV going forward - Developer ROI yes, you agree with that? Subscription to Lynda.com arguably the best support available for damn near anything computer based. Please take a look - they offer direct training on Unity and Unreal -You dont need to master everything up front, you just dont, you need to be able to make it work until you can master it. Every university in the research triangle here in the US provides this to thier staff...there is a really good reason for it. Check it out. Free trial for 10 days. I would beg you to just give it a look.

     

    Sunvortex, when it comes to collisions and jumping - both of them must be done on server, so engine switch wouldn't change anything in speed of implementing most features except the need to add more complicated procedures of keeping client and server in sync.

    In case of MMO's, client shouldn't have any actual logic done inside - this means that all the stuff like collisions, moving or even looking around must be done server side where using the engine is not a good idea. (I completely agree, back a couple years ago when we were floating this is was my primary concern with Unity because so much is done clientside. I have allready stated that this would be the biggest issue in my mind as its going to be where the most work will be focused. I know...but I dont think that should be used as an excuse to not do it.

     

    Art assets... There are lots of sites focused just on them, and - as art is not engine specific - it can be taken from anywhere. :)I 100% completely agree. I use Unity asset store as its a perfect example. We could get art anywhere. Not just be reliant on a small dev team which by default addresses the not enough time issue.

     

  9. Posted

    10 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

    I'll come back and read the full length of this post in a bit, but for right now I stopped with "Its not about numbers."  Everything is about the numbers in business.

    Sort of - this particular issue is about the ability to --Keyword---- "Create"------ numbers. Has nothing to do with existing numbers except to show its time to do it and stop making excuses not to.

  10. Posted

    4 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

    I'm going to come outright and say that I don't have experience as a coder, or in developing a video game, for that matter.  I say that from a stand point of not being the experienced guy in the room moving into this comment.  From reading through your post Sunsvortex I get the feeling, and please do correct me if I'm mistaken, that you're not much of a developer either? ( Web Developer  -16 years in IT - started coding on a commodore VIC 20 when I was 9 in BASIC -remember line numbers -I do. Have worked for some of the largest companies in the world during my time. I do only web dev stuff that is HIPPA compliant these days (and farm and make beer when I can) and this by default means DB stuff as well. I currently serve on the steering committee of a small company as well as do some freelance consulting. Everyone happy now)) The only reason I say this is the manner of which you deliver your pitch.  Everything you said had a feel of "assumption" to it, without definitive evidence to prove those points. (Its a high level fundamental issue -it will never be solved in Minutia. This is why. Its also why I am avoiding like the plague going into the minutia because the issue cannot be solved there.)

     

    For example, you talk about how cheap Unity is and how price is a false concern, but in that entire point you never actually gave a price quote.  It left me feeling like your research wasn't thorough and was instead based off of the comments and reviews section of an article delving into that specific engine and its features.  Not saying that is what you did, only that that is how it reads, in my opinion. ( Why should I quote prices? Go to the respective sites and see for yourself? Its not a big deal, not to Mention the devs and Rolf all know its dirt cheap, no need to price quote, just go look for yourself and see)

     

    Another example, is when you vaguely say that the team didn't take into account how long the overhaul would take if all of the devs were working on it full-time.  You mention that they estimated 2 years to complete, ( Not me -Budda said they went with 1.5 to 2 years) but that was with ongoing updates and bug fixes taking place simultaneously.  You shaved that estimate down to 6 months to a year assuming all of the developers work full-time on the project, but where did you come up with that time-frame?(Number of hours available during the time frame -a bit over 10k - And I tried to stay away from an American Work Ethic which would put hours per day on a project like this at 14. So if they could , even reluctantly move to more that 7 hours per day it could easily be accomplished in the time frame. But this is also not the issue and is drowning in Minutia because for what you get by moving to this would be something we cannot achieve in any other way - the ability to solve the biggest issue that has ever been in WURM - Not enough time.)  Are there any specific numbers crunched, or comments from the lead developers to confirm that number?  Not only that, but it seems like you're assuming the entire player base would be peachy with having their updates and fixes halted for the sake of a transfer to a new engine.(No I know they wont -and I dont care either - Sorry  -its just the way I think -Its too important _ it just adds yet another layer of excuses to keep us on a treadmill to nowhere)

     

    I see where you're coming from, and the points you're trying to make, but it all feels very much like hearsay and speculation to me due to the lack of hard numbers.  Don't get me wrong, not every suggestion for Wurm Online needs hard numbers and deep research to be worth while, but something as game-changing as this requires that kind of research through and through.  Thank you for your presentation, and taking the time to plot out your pitch, but to me it feels very lacking.  From an inexperienced stand point, I personally would not be won over with that pitch or moved to make changes based on the lack of depth and research to verify your claims.

    Its not about numbers -its about the future of WURM, Its about what can move us forward and what cant -there are no numbers that can describe that. Its why I am avoiding all that kind of stuff because its not going to do anything -it just doesnt have any bearing on solving a problem. The problem is not enough Devs / Not Enough Time - Doing the same thing that we have been doing for years wont solve a problem. It hasnt yet why would it? Everyone of these things serves only to justify NOT doing it. Ok Well not doing it is not getting us anywhere. And not to mention I can justify building a nuclear bomb under a daycare center -Justifications are just that Justifications -they get in the way. What is the furture of WURM going to look like? If we keep doing the same things we have been doing - itll look exactly like it is today - The time it takes doesnt matter - the cost doesnt matter - whether or not there will be a handful of people crying and whining about it doesnt matter - WO and WU will still be available - plenty of ways and means to merge - these issues are secondary to the main concern and thats fixing the problem of NOT ENOUGH TIME. Once they can start saying -yeah we have the time for that, more and more and more possibilities open up. Solutions can be put in place that today would be unthinkable.

  11. Posted · Edited by sunsvortex

    7 hours ago, Wulfgarr said:

    I am not a person with IT background, but i think that sunvortex is way off. My reasoning, why the hell should i want to not get any updates for 2 years to make the game easier to mod? All i saw was you saying that everyone should want the game to move to unity or unreal. I do not. I understand that you dl the free trial and in 15 mins you could ride a horse but its not that simple or is it? Now why should CC shut down their current projects, tell their players who pay for the product: Hey, we are gonna work on making it 3D for easier modding, chance for all of you to submit different items ingame later, but for 1,5 or 2 years you will get nothing. Why? And you are saying getting more people, paying for unreal engine the 5% and still its not 100% if it will work or how it would work. I don´t want that.

    For several reasons - and good questions, very good questions and ill try to give you good answers.

     

    The discussion about moving to Unreal Unity has been floating about for the last couple years. The devs have floated it around and some good discussions concerning it were pushed but really nothing came of it. At the time there was a lot going on, new devs, lots of updates, lots of future promise and it looked like the game was setting itself up in a really good positive position. This unfortunately simply didnt work out the way most hoped it would and we slid back into old habits and complacency topped off with a lot more cynicism which has prevailed ever since, until the announcement of WU. WU has shown, without question, that a lot of the ideas in the suggestion threads are not only valid, but very good. It has shown that people prefer a less grindier game, and its put in place a promise of what wurm could be. Unfortunately there is a cost to everything, and the cost here is a large and continuing decline in subs for WO.

     

    When WU was first announced my immediate concerns were how anyone would mod this and then not have those mods immediately stepped on by any updates that were pushed. No real answer except - the modders will figure it out / "code around us". Well they did....sort of....using injection though is just a hacking technique and nearly every game published since 2011 has a mod button somewhere. Game developers everywhere started seeing and realizing that they didnt need to try and keep up with all content requests, they could just give the players the tools to do it themselves, and it worked, it worked great. Its now gone so far as to be an expectation and if you dont have a modding infrastructure your working on putting one in. So since Warlander was the one cheerleading it, I knew he was aware of all this and I knew if there was any Wurm dev that wanted to see a true modding infrastructure go in, it would be him. So maybe this whole WU thing was not just a good thing, but a ground floor investment in the furture of where Wurm was going. -------Unfortunately its looking more and more like this is not the case--------

     

    Wurm has some serious problems, its showing its age in the code and in its thinking as a whole. It has a variety of player retention issues, its based on a homemade game structure written in Java, and a variety of little pin prick issues that are in and of themselves not really a big deal but cumulatively serve as one big ugly stick. Aside from all the good that releasing WU did - it failed to do one big thing - solve any problems - It proved a ton of things, but unfortunately, didnt solve any issues. If anything it has given contrast to a lot of those issues and perhaps exacerbated them to one degree or another. Now that being said - It "could have" solved some problems, had certain things been in place, like a modding infrastructure or at least a plan to go forward with this. But when you ask about it you get -Its too big / there are not enough subs / WO is the flagship /takes too much time. And here is where the meat of the issue is - Not Enough Time.

     

    I have heard this Not Enough Time excuse for years, on all kinds of issues and projects. Its always about the time it takes. I have heard every dev say it, I have heard Rolf preach it, its just the recurring theme of Wurm development - not enough devs, not enough time, always this has been the issue cited. Ok so how does one solve such an issue. You could hire more devs - this has been tried, they hang out here for a while then leave for all kinds of reasons. So for Wurm this hasnt really worked well. So what else can you do -well you can increase the development throughput by focusing on bug fixing and a lot of smaller content . This is fine but it still doesnt fix the issue, as it may look good in patch notes to see a laundry list of stuff worked on its effects are not enough to drive new subs and push the game in any direction. In fact these approaches have at best just kept a pulse to the game. Buying time, if you will.

     

    So since the problem is the amount of time it takes to do projects that have any hope of driving new subs to the game, then it makes sense to look at what is really needed to actually and realistically do this. That would mean moving to a real game engine. A game engine will give you the structure, workflow and efficiency to do projects that are now considered "too big". Lets float some examples.

     

    #1 Collision - It took ages to get bridges done -Why - collision - Collision in Unity is drag n drop - on most any item in game. Took CC months to figure out collision for bridges and they still have tons of issues with collision. Move to UU(Unity/Unreal) problem is literally solved. Look at the time saved. Months. Now any project they want to do, that would involve collision, is no longer the big bad plate full of problems it was, so it becomes viable. Not so much time needed.

     

    #2 Jumping / Flying / Combat - The collision model in UU fixes jumping and flying instantly - no coding needed. Its not even a project -its inherent. Not even a single line of code needed. Combat has an entirely new set of classes so everyone gets all the things they have wanted / yelled about over the years in a combat system. Youll code here quite a bit to suit needs, but its all scripting, MUCH MUCH quicker than using a low level language like Java. --- Rolf is still talking about jumping  /Flying and it hasnt happened - why? -problems with collision and not enough time. Moving to UU = Fixed. Im not advocating putting them in, just using it as a point to illustrate time savings.

     

    #3 Art and New Assets - Art takes a long time regardless of the engine you run on, indeed its an entirely separate issue when talking about creating art. CC just lost an art dev, so its getting really farfetched to imagine that they will be pumping out many new graphics anytime soon. This is not to say that Saramon wont be doing his dead level best, but a loss in staff is a loss in content period. With UU you have this available - The Unity Asset Store -  anyone whether player or developer can download the art here and use it either in WO or WU. Prices range from Free on up. There are no shortage of people developing art for the asset store so this would assure new content for CC and players for the forseeable future without worrying about how many art devs stay or leave.

    This is a monstrous amount of time saved in development. The amount of time saved here simply cannot be overstated.

     

    So by moving to a real game engine like UU you make the future possible by solving a problem, the biggest problem that has ever existed in Wurm - Not Enough Time.

    Will it fix everything? NO of course not

    But by introducing new solutions your by default introducing an entirely new set of problems - Correct - a new set of issues that have and are being addressed by some of the best coders in the world supported by a monstrously huge community of people doing support and sharing thier solutions via the web. And its all about 1 thing---UU---- 

    It Costs too much - Unless your Rolf - you dont know this. Unity is dirt cheap. If you dont have the money for a handful of Unity licenses -the company is going to fold within a few days so it really doesnt matter. Unreal is rather expensive, but you get what you pay for and hands down the graphics capability in Unreal is second to none. Thier graphics pipeline (Which comes free with it) is amazing to say the least. Worst case scenario crowd fund it right here. For Unity your simply asking for chump change. This is a false concern.

    Its going to take 2 years according to devs to do this - No this is incorrect - Per the devs, they were not taking into account everyone at CC working on it. Thats 5 full time devs plus the vol devs. Break the project down into logical parts, hand those out to the correct people and your looking at 6 months to a year to get a working copy "WITH" all the improvements listed above and much much more. Moving to UU  is not just about WU....its about both WO and WU. SO there is no argument about WO being the priority as its still the priority, just on a different engine. If its to be feasable at all its going to take all hands, all devs at CC making it happen. No estimate has ever been contemplated in these terms. Its always been assesed on minimal staff working on it -hence the 2 year scenario. It comes down to this - they have to want to do it, they have to see the value in it, they have to believe that its a good way forward. Its only then will the will to pull together and make it happen exist. Regardless of a time to create debate - they can spend that time doing exactly what they have been doing for the last 10 years and get us exactly where we are now or take the time to actually move forward and get us off the treadmill. Lets float a good example here.

     

    Back a couple years ago when this idea was being floated around alot, they decided against it. What would have happened had they bit the bullet then and went ahead with it. Where would we be now? It could have been done, even with the 2 year scenario with minimal staff working on it. We wouldn't be in a position where projects would be too big, WU could have been released with an integrated modding structure, we wouldnt be hearing about how long it  takes to x y or z, we would be in a position to realistically address player retention issues, we would be in a position to realistically address inumerable problems, but yet, here we are, the same place, different day, arguing the same things, hearing the same excuses, with the same problems on a treadmill to nowhere. Overrun by complaceny and defeatest attitudes.

     

    There will never be a good time to do this,

    There will always be concerns about doing it

    There is risk involved in doing it

    Its going to take a good bit of time to do this. If im guilty of underestimating the time required then the devs are just as guilty of overestimating the time required.

     

    But these things are countered by the ability to solve problems-----and not just any problem----- "THE"----- problem that has plagued Wurm from day 1 -Not Enough Time.

     

    I hope I have answered, at least in part, some of your questions

     

     

  12. Posted · Edited by sunsvortex

    6 hours ago, Budda said:

    The 6 month estimate a couple of pages back would be accurate with a few more full-time devs, and an inexperienced project manager giving that estimate. If you've ever worked with software development, you tend to know that any first estimate should be doubled or tripled to get the real estimate - just due to lack of knowledge, and the million different problems that arise during large projects.

    According to Rolf there are 5 full time devs - Thats what I based the estimate on - I didnt include the vol devs. If you take those 5 devs - figuring 7 hours a day 5 days a week for 26 weeks -thats 175 hours per week for a total of 4550 working hours for a 6 month period - double it for a years time - 9100 hours without any assistance from vol devs - If just for the sake of this im only going to count you and warlander -lets say your able to do 50% of the time - that equates to 1 extra dev. If you think your time spent is less than that lets just assume all the other vol devs make up for that. Fair enough for a rough average?

    So lets add in the extra dev - thats 910 hours for 6 months - double it for a year 1820. so now we have between 5460 and 10920 hours. That looks like plenty of time to me to get it moved over including learning curve.

     

    Your estimates thus far have always been based on minimal staff working on it. I have never proposed that. In order to make it happen you need everyone to help. All hands - everyone - you do that your in there. So what if it runs over a bit. Risk vs Reward, ROI, Code Management, Scaling - its all there. Its worth the time and effort. Its worth putting things aside to make it happen.

     

    As i said before you can spend this time and money doing the same things we have been doing for the past 10 years and getting the same results we have been getting over those years or you can move to something to get you off the treadmill. Im not saying that without a doubt its the cure for all that ills Wurm, but it will give you the tools and structure needed to efficiently manage those issues. Itll put you in a position to better manage everything as well as start moving away from the constant "We dont have the time or resources" excuse thats always used.

     

    Dont you ever get tired of having to say that? Doesnt that piss you off a bit? Dont you get tired of being on this treadmill of just keeping your head above water with an intermittent swim for your life?

    Do away with the defeatest attitudes

    Stop beating the dead horse

    Stop with all the excuses and rationales NOT to do it

    Focus on rationalizing ways and means TO do it

    Put energy into making things happen and put the circular logic to bed

     

    Were going nowhere unless some serious changes are made - while this wont in and of itself cure those issues it will allow you the best chance to address them now and in the future.

    If the people that build the game wont reinvest in it - where is the incentive for anyone else to?

     

     

  13. Posted

    That really can't happen though. -Wrong - It can and it should.

     

    You are seeing this problem from the perspective of someone who has spent a weekend playing with a free edition of an engine? If you have credentials, I'll definitely retract that statement. I dont feel the need to justify myself to a troll.

    The points:

    • First of all, the engines cost money. Unity would require all of us (including volunteer developers) to pony up money for a per-desk license. If I'm wrong about this, please do correct me. That's $75/mo or $1500 for a limit-support perpetual license. (That much I did find, and support for a currently purchased license ends in March of 2017. No new features, fixes, etc after that point.) Unreal wants 5% per game per month once you make over $3,000. I'm not sure how that applies to an existing product, and we have two: Wurm Unlimited and Wurm Online. That alone would be 5% off the gross of both games, not to mention what is already paid out for existing deals. I can't speak for the CodeClub books, but given that there are only 3 full time developers, I'm not sure if that amount of money would be an easy loss to soak up without raising prices on players. - If you cant afford to buy licenses close the doors you cant afford to run the game as is - no sale -  worst case scenario - put a post on these forums asking for the community to support it. Monetize the game correctly and you dont worry about the costs of licensing. - This is a false concern. Rolf should easily be able to afford licensing - Complete Nonsense. I have addressed this concern about 30 times in the last 2 years - no need to rehash it.
    • Devoting the full strength of Code Club at a rewrite would leave both Wurm Online and Wurm Unlimited to stagnate. Given the costs I mentioned above, it doesn't make practical business sense to allow your core money-making products to stagnate in the hope that a rewrite will bring people back or pull new players in. This is called a gamble, and sensible business folks don't take risks like that. -Wrong - a simple post to the effect of " We are currently moving away from Java to Unreal to move the game forward. In order to move the game this way in a feasable timeframe we will need all hands on deck. WO and WU will still be available but no further development will be put into these items as we are moving to a new platform -Insert all the good things to come from it" Done. Period.
    • Budda's estimate is spot on, even with every developer at the keys. How would you know that? I know they didnt take into account everyone working on it. There's a number of issues you are failing to factor in, including incompatibility with current systems. Even if we used a tool to literally port the code right on over, there's likely to be a number of areas which will need rewrites just to get things working. Even if we get a working client done in six months, we will have done nothing for the people who have been paying that entire time and have an unstable and likely bug-prone client to show for it. Consider the history of Wurm and tell me if that will go over well?
    • That estimate doesn't take into account what I mentioned before, which would be the impact on Saroman. New art is the easiest to fix - Go to Asset store download and insert ,done.Right now if I want a new wall type I have to open 3dsmax design it find textures for it and then code it in -Nonsense - Put in an integrated modding infrastructure and life gets really simple really quick - they could make a wall designer and charge for it -pick a wall type , add a texture push a button to add it in -people could go to town making all kinds and post them up for free or sell them. The art and modding are where moving it to a new platform can really shine. If we stopped everything to work on a new client, customers would expect dramatic improvements for putting up with paying in and getting nothing for that amount of time. So we would need quite a number of new art assets that take advantage of the functionalities the new engine gives. We'd also likely cut off some of our customers with older machines as a result.
    • Lastly, and most importantly, having an IDE such as what Unity and Unreal provide does not ensure anything when it comes to a project like this. It makes it easy for novices but you are a novice - and as long as you have and keep volunteer devs coming in there will be plenty of novices...so I would call that a strength. Can put all the novices on scripting jobs and leave the low level jobs to full time coders. to point and click their way around to generating game code. A client does a lot more than just render 3D graphics, and we would likely need to do heavy rewrites on the server as well if we must use a Unity or Unreal communication library that might not support our current methods of doing things. That's one of those catches that makes an experienced project manager double or triple their estimates: You cannot know everything, so you assume you don't.

    On that last point, the client is just part of what needs to be caught up to the future in Wurm. The server also needs some love, as it's responsible for some of the more game-breaking bugs you all experience. The current boat travel one, as well as various server-crossing issues, the spiking lag at times, and many other smaller and less reported issues all live in the server. The server is a far more complicated piece of code than the client is, yet it must work in tandem with the client. If you are also considering a server rewrite, then that estimate of Budda's now approaching a half decade at best. umm thats one of the reasons why you move to a real engine.

     

    Then there's Wurm Unlimited! We could focus a rewrite simply on Wurm Online, but we will then have a fractured code base umm we allready have a fractured code base WO /WU seriously, do you even know what you are talking about? It sounds to me like your just arguing to win the argument - doesnt sound like your trying to make any valid point.and likely more threats of all sorts from various WU enthusiasts who quite dearly recall that we would keep WU updated with WO. Well a rewrite for WO, client and even just the required parts of the server, would also mean potentially breaking backwards compatibility for Wurm Unlimited.

     

    I didn't even cover the amount of damage the stagnation itself would do to the brand, which people already scream isn't being advertised enough. We would effectively have to not do any advertising at all. What point would there be to bring people to a stagnant game with naught but a promise of a better tomorrow?

     

    So in closing:

    If resources allowed it, would a slow move to a more modern 3D engine be a good idea? Yes, quite possibly. A slow, purposeful movement with a complete rewrite as Budda mentioned would make sense. Is that a likely scenario, regardless of all the arguing, bickering, and ruffled feathers? No, not at all likely.

     

    I'm done weighing in on this issue. I think this post pretty much covers everything.

    Have fun, and good night :)

  14. Posted

    1 hour ago, Warlander said:

     

    The problem is not reinventing the wheel (something was did once already, don't need to think about that again), but fitting the solution into the new environment. In many cases old solution will be just useless due to how engine handles rendering, in other cases would require major changes or (best case scenario) just modifications to old solution to make it work under new API. Naturally most common are "full rewrite" or "major rewrite" cases, it is very uncommon that solution which works under one engine/library will work after simple changes under another engine/library, especially when we are thinking about different levels of API's (LWJGL is very low-level graphics library while Unity is high-level graphics engine, naturally this is different matter when thinking about LWJGL to JOGL switch which operate on the same level and are based on the same principles, in this very specific case most code can be rewritten 1:1).

     

    For example, let's take screwing of fences (which is required to make fences on slopes, bridges etc. work) - in LWJGL you can do that just with a simple matrix transformation, but Unity don't allows you to access transform matrix directly, as well as any other transformations than translate/rotate/scale. This means that completely new solution is needed (in case of DeedPlanner Unity I had to write custom system to create new models out of original ones to make them appear skewed - implementation and optimization of this part alone took me 3 weeks).

    Indeed - but there will be plenty of places where you dont need to put in a solution. You may need to rethink the mechanic a bit and decide if certain things are actually needed or not. I get it - there will be those challenges, but for as many challenges as you run into your also going to run into just as many -"hey we dont need all that now we can just do it this way" instances. My bet is that it balances out and works in your favor more times than not.

  15. Posted

    Another Question for you Budda - when you guys looked at this were you talking about every single person stopping develoment on WO and focusing on moving to the newe platform or only a few working on it?. Just do this - my only request -revisit it. put it in terms of everyone -all hands - and no further development on WO. Then tell me what you think the time frame would be.

     

  16. Posted

    1 minute ago, Budda said:

     

    That takes away most of the reason for a new engine though, doesn't it?

     

    Doing that would give us what, maybe a slightly better running client and prettier lighting? A big part of changing engines would be the chance to go back over everything, and change large systems that are impractical to change right now to make them work better. Just copying and pasting the existing game would do almost nothing for the state of Wurm, and when we're finished and want to go back and say, replace the UI, we'd still be stuck with the same amount of work that'd be required to do it right now.

    Nope -just the opposite - now you have a game that can go anywhere in any direction at 1/10 the time it would take to do the same in Java. If I wanted new trees I have several options - I can go to the Unity Asset store -  I could make my own -  I could go to the aforementioned Wurm Asset store and purchase someones tree pack they had done.

     

    If we stay on Java - thats not going to happen -and even if Im wrong and lets say there ends up being a Wurm asset store - you have to use injection to get them in there so you dont step on any updates. An integrated modding infrastructure via Unity or Unreal takes care of this.

  17. Posted

    4 minutes ago, Budda said:

     

    We've talked about this many times between all the devs over the years, and every time it is brought up, the general consensus for a decent estimate would be 2 years.

     

    There are only 3 full-time devs on this project, and the flakiness of us volunteers can't be relied upon to shorten that timeframe - of course we would be eager to help and do what we can, but with us being volunteers, real life can easily get in the way. 

    When you add in that the base game will still need updates and fixes in that time, you could maybe get away with 2 of the devs working full time on a new-engine client - rewriting everything and making it all work with the server software with that few people is where the estimate comes from.

     

    The 6 month estimate a couple of pages back would be accurate with a few more full-time devs, and an inexperienced project manager giving that estimate. If you've ever worked with software development, you tend to know that any first estimate should be doubled or tripled to get the real estimate - just due to lack of knowledge, and the million different problems that arise during large projects.

     

    TL;DR: Conservative bets are on at least 1.5-2 years for a move to a bigger/better engine.

    OK cool, I can work with this -  lets say 1.5 years

    You can spend 1.5 years developing in Java and putting out some good stuff and maybe perhaps get current WO numbers stabilized and arguably get them going in a positive direction only to have them flatten out  - Im using past as prologue - fair enough????

    OR

    You can spend 1.5 years moving to a different platform where you have the option to take the game in any direction and do so with a very small dev team. The opportunity is there to adapt and be competitive. You can open it up to a MUCH larger audience and really start seeing some good results for the publicity on steam. these things simply cannot be realized to the extent you could on a different platform where you can actually respond to content requests - where you can respo0nd to game mechanic requests - respond to graphic upgrade requests.

     

    Its just not possible using a straight language.

  18. Posted

    And let me just restate - were talking about an existing game to be literally copied. You can apply all kinds of time efficiency models to it but they will all over estimate the actual time needed as they are based on starting from scratch. Were not starting from scratch. Wurm is fully functional on its own. Everyone knows how everything is supposed to work so all the litteral game engineering is taken out, If everyone is used to attack the project with thier own set of tasks its not going to take nearly as long as you might think. Not even close actually. What in my mind is most likely to happen that would start slowing things down would be the desire to add in new stuff as you go along. Just be hard nosed about it and wait till you can get a litteral copy of Wurm functioning and THEN start adding stuff.

  19. Posted

    2 minutes ago, KaiH said:

    when it come to time/productivity management and coders...

    1+1=2 | 2+1=3,5 | 3,5+1=6

    the more individual coders you put on the same project the longer it takes

    Indeed  -its known as Brook's Law - Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later.

    Not to be a smartass - but dont add manpower if its behind schedule :)

     

    You have how many client devs ? and how many Server devs? how many in the art department now?

     Make a list of projects and hand them out.

     

    I see what your saying but your not really going to encounter this issue as much as you might think - Why?

    because your not making a new game - no one will be struggling with "OK how did we want terraforming to work?" ect ect ect

    Everyone allready knows how its supposed to work. You have a working game to simply copy over.

    If someone is behind yeah its always best not to add more people itll normally just get everyone bent out of shape.

  20. Posted

    1 minute ago, Warlander said:

     

    DeedPlanner 2 currently have 1,2 mb of source code alone and 119 classes. I once started making DeedPlanner for Unity, but abandoned the project after few weeks and realizing that finishing it would take at least 6 more months at the same pace with which I wrote rest of the program. Now take Wurm which is much older and more complex project and imagine how much would it take to convert just client to Unity... 1 year of non-stop development and stopping all other projects is absolute minimum which comes to my mind. Counting all complications, testing etc. this number would probably get closer to 2 years.

    But you are also talking about Just you -no one else assisting on the project -yes if its just one person trying to port it over yeah its going take a stupid long time -Im not talking about 1 person War, Im talking about completely ending any further development on WO and focusing  - all hands on deck to knock it out and get a base game going. I know it can be done in 6 months to a year. I know it can. With everyone working on it - I just dont buy the 2 year thing.

  21. Posted · Edited by sunsvortex

    6 minutes ago, KaiH said:

    thank you for the explanation Sunsvortex,

    sounds like Unity would be a box-on-box thing where stuff gets added like carbon-copies - allways repeating crap because it would be too much hassle to individualise things.

    My example would be Skyrim - beautiful world, good gameplay for a while, but everything is repeated stuff once you have done half the mainstory.

     

    i'd rather stick to what we have and look forward to bugfixes - some Devs have done tremendously good lately in that regard!

    Its only that way if you make it that way. Yeah Skyrim does that and alot, as its quest based. Wurms not quest based. So the repeating sequences of standardized modularized quests are not really an issue. Skyrim used a framework for thier quests to make it easy to make the ...what several hundred quests or more they have going to advance in the game. Wurm simply doesnt need to modularize anything beyond building parts - walls roofs ect ect ect. And this is EXACTLY what is needed for WURM. Make modding very easy.

  22. Posted · Edited by sunsvortex

    11 minutes ago, bdew said:

     

    And that's exactly what Keenan said about shitty games. Taking some prefab stuff and using it to "make" a game in 15 minutes is one thing. Making an engine that can run an MMO on top of unity is completely different.  - Now how is it your going to make WURM shitty if your litterally moving it to a different platform? It would have to be shitty to begin with right? Now granted I would pick Unreal over Unity any day of the week, but due to costs I generally point at Unity.

     

    WU client is currently has 711 classes and over 8mb of SOURCE CODE (looking ad decompiled code, so some of that is cruft, but still...). That is not including libraries, etc. And i can bet that some chunks of that were written by notch 10 years ago and nobody in the current team understands them :P Both Unity and Unreal very well may remove most of those and replace them with thier own - most of whats being done in WURM now can be done without having to write a single line of code. They will of course want to and should do so. Wurm is not as complex as your making it out to be. Its just showing its age .

     

    Redoing all that in a different platform could easily take thousands of manhours. - See previous posts -6 months to a year depending on circumstances. There are 5 paid developers and a handfull of volunteer devs - If they concentrate -  and focus on moving the game over, its just not going to take along as you might think. Have you ever used Unity? I would invite you to download and run through a few tutorials and check out specifically the workflow. And what difference does it make how long it takes? Really...if its moving to a viable platform then just do what needs to be done. Why would you fault them for trying to make things better?

     

    If you want a good example of a rewrite like that - look at MCPE, Microsoft has already burned god knows how many millions on that, and it's nowhere close to being functionally equivalent with the Java version of Minecraft. - I dont care what Microsoft does -I care what Wurm does. Microsfot had devulged into a bloated ridiculous example of a company many years ago. Its name is synonymous with "who cares". lol

     

  23. Posted · Edited by sunsvortex

    17 minutes ago, bdew said:

    FYI the current best selling PC game EVER is written in Java. Not unity or unreal.

     

     

    I think you are massively underestimating how much work will be involved in this, or overestimating the amount of resources CC has available.

    I downloaded Unity - spent 3 hours doing some reading - setup a server and a client and had a toon inside a 3d world in 15 minutes. 15 minutes...thats all it took. 15 minutes -I could run around  do a couple of things like shoot a gun and ride a horse. If I can do that in 15 minutes think what real developers can do. I only do web development so i stick to C# VB and some C++ and nowaday thanks to WU some Java.

     

    I think your overestimating how long this will take. I know for a fact I could have something people could log into and do something...may not be much but do something in 1 day.

  24. Posted

    3 minutes ago, KaiH said:

    i don't get it...

    you say it's not about the java engine but Wurm must move to another engine?

     

    pardon my ignorance if i don't understand what you want to say

    Java is a programming language - a low level language, and a good one.

     An engine is alltogether something different. It has been written in a low level language and is a program unto itself. It provides structure. Honestly take a look at Unitys or Unreals site and take a bit to look into how it works. But just for a quick primer:

    you download the programs and open them up and develop your game from within that program. While there can be a lot of low level coding involved once its in place you can use the high lev el scripting languages to quickly and i mean very quickly add content, mechanics, upgrades. Its just a far superior route than using a straight language.

     

    Using java youll litterally just start coding in whatever flavor of editor you like to use. its all low level coding and it takes forever when compared to high level languages and scripting.

  25. Posted · Edited by sunsvortex

    9 minutes ago, Keenan said:

    Unity and Unreal are not the be-all end-all for platforms. If you understand what they are, then you should also know what you actually get from them. It's just as easy to write horrible games based in Unity and Unreal as it is to have issues with a custom engine. I also beg to differ on Java being a "dead end platform". Java is used in way more places than you realize, and it's been steadily improving over the years.

     

    See above.

     

    You should also list the cons. Stopping now and moving to Unity or Unreal would require more resources than we really have at the moment. Do you think Wurm could halt completely for a year while a new client is developed in an entirely new engine, when a render rewrite (the engine, basically) is around the corner? Not to mention we'd likely need to have more folks on the art team (poor Saroman) just to pull off the work to port things over, and that's not including the "better graphics" you're after. Because a new engine isn't going to magically make our current models and textures life-like.

     

    This isn't about what language is better. I'm rather language agnostic, which is why I shoot these things down. An engine is a starting point, not a turning point. It's something you use for a spring forward, not something you turn to after you've already written your own. Oh, and the market place? You should take a gander at a lot of Greenlight and Early Access games on Steam that make use of it. It's a point customers hammer indie game makers on.

     

    As for OpenGL support... LWJGL is supporting Vulkan I do believe, which is a brand new set of APIs for doing some rather advanced things. Check it out. Java isn't as dead as you think. ;)

    Were not taliking about writing horrible games - were talking about moving WURM to something viable. The game is what it is, put it on a platform that can be scaled, that can be built upon by players as well as developers.

     

    The only cons are that current devs will be introduced to a learning curve and the time it takes to make the transition - thats what your really complaining about isnt it.

    Your not shooting anything down, your trolling the thread trying to turn it into an argument about language which has absolutely NOTHING to do with this NOTHING.

     

    People that are not familiar with coding intricacies will often just cite its Java. AND since thats what wurm is running on just JAVA - they are correct to a point. They dont need to be able to hold a conversation about all this they just need to say its JAVA. We all know what they mean and there is no reason to attack them over it.

     

    And one other item of a technical note - I dont care what Open GL supports or not - The developers currently working on WURM are not good enough to make it work well, so it doesnt matter how great Open GL is if you dont have the dev power to exploit it.