Delone

Came from two old 5 speed parents - Ebony male, Bloodbay female, so effectively first generation from old horses. (First round of foals were pretty much all culled due to the mass negative traits). Raised AH to 75 from 65 before breeding this round. Probably around 150 foals had arrived before this one, and it remains the only one to get it so far. I say it again... It's just a lottery. So those saying don't use old horses to breed... it had two speed dominant parents, and only used one of them to select the traits. So don't go tossing/culling those old 5 speeds, you never know which one could be your winning ticket 😜

Given that an "very slim chance" of dying to a hunger tick has now killed six out of seven foals that had it by the time they hit young adult, who could tell what the Devs consider to be a low chance of passing on? The fact that the water trait seems to kick in twice when you have "Unbelievably fast" trait shows that there is not much that seems to be working as intended from this update 😜

Well, it appears I have excellent news on the 50kph horse front.... My 5 speed ebony aged up to riding age today (4s + Unbelievably fast), its always on trait isn't always on (wow, something not working as stated?) but.... when the water trait does kick in on dry land it hits 42kph with no rare gear, 80ql saddle with no enchants and high 80's shoes with low 90's woa, so swap in a rare set and enchant the saddle and 50kph could be a thing. But *drumroll* ...... If you then actually do go riding in water? It appears the water boost kicks in again. Horse went from 42 kph up to 48 kph. Wow.

Now that my 5 speed has aged up enough to be ridden, can also confirm that the unbelievably fast trait is not causing traits to be on all the time, but does appear to be triggering the water trait engaging at times, based on it being around 5kph faster with the same gear as a 3 speed without water trait, and averaging consistantly higher speeds. However, with some testing, it does appear that the water trait then may be kicking in a second time when actually riding in shallow water, as the horse then got a further speed boost - geared with high 80's shoes with low 90's woa, and an unenchanted 80's saddle, best speed i saw out of water was 42kph with a light load, and that increased up to 45kph when in water. Riding pretty much nekid with nothing carried, broke 48kph in water.

Cleared my head, sat back and looked at things again. Asked why am I so unhappy with my breeding results? The answer suddenly became clearer to me: Because I have gone from breeding horses with 5 traits I wanted and chose at 50AH, to 3 traits I want (and don't even control those with selection) and multiple traits I have zero interest in at 75 AH. Why am I getting these results? Weighted points. Just to get 3 speed traits I want, and one that essentially does nothing, but I need to have to get the extra boost if it happens to get the rare always on trait = 55 points (previously for 30 of my AH I could produce the same speed horse, and half of one of those also gave draught) Just to get 3 draught traits I want, and one that does absolutely nothing (but assuming it will at some time be changed to do something, or that we have an incoming change that will add damage to hitched animal gear, so points used for something we used to have for nothing) = 65 points (previously 20 points, with some draught coming from what is included above) With 75 AH, the very best (for whatever reason is unclear) the most points I seem to have to spend is actually 70, as at no point from 100's of foals have I gotten anything that is more than 5 points below my AH. This means on draught horses the moment I roll the 3 traits I want (and the one I don't, but hope will become useful)... I have room for a 5 point useless trait. 75 AH for a 5 trait animal, 1 trait being one that I don't want, and have no control over at all, and another being a trait that does.... nothing. On a speed horse once I get 4 speed traits, one of which is so limited in its practical use as to be meaningless on 99 out of 100 foals, I have 15 points left, and almost universally will get 2 or 3 traits that are of no use to me. I'm guessing that the sheer number of traits I don't want mean I roll one or two of those, and then I have no room in my cap to get one I actually do want. So under almost all circumstance, despite having 25 more AH than before the update, I am producing animals that are of less use than before. The point costs of the other traits I might want (assuming I was happy to separate draught and speed in the first place - I'm not) mean they are are going to be excluded the moment I roll any of the other unwanted fluff traits, and there is absolutely no way for the breeder to control this, or on the rare occasion where they would actually get a trait they want..... they get randomed off on the next breeding, with no hereditary of anything other than the dominant pool. This is all aside from offspring frequently having less traits in the dominant pool. If this whole update wasn't a deliberate nerf, instead of being a QoL for higher AH breeders as it was claimed to be, the only solution I see is to go back to 10 points being a trait, and to get rid of the dominant pool breeding from a single parent, and reintroduce using both parents and common trait hereditary system. If all the new traits are to remain, there almost has to be some way for the breeder to control, or remove, which traits are available on breeding. Preference being, that the traits that don't apply to specific animal types, be removed from them. Edit: +1 on the comments on how Keenan provides feedback after issues, and the need for something similar here.

And another one, my fifth to die, but for the first time, this one did not have the extremely sick trait. Young horse, on enchanted grass, inside a donut house.

Well actually, no it didn't. It inherited them from ONE of its parents. The other parent could have been traitless, and this foal could have still been the outcome. It's not just draught that is excluded by having speed dominant parents, it's almost all of the old traits that had actual effects. No mention was made that the dominant pool would effectively stop the production of traits from other pools, and only allow some misc traits, some combat traits and a bunch of output traits that are pretty much useless. Out of over 100 foals, none with speed or draught dominant parents have had, spark, USH, tough or fight fierce. Variety? Before long almost every transport animal will be 3 or 4 speed traits, one of which is practically useless, with the random smattering of worthless other traits, or 3 or 4 draught traits one of which IS completely useless, with a random smattering of worthless traits. Friendly - nobody I know uses tamed horses, bison, donkeys, etc Vibrant - useless on horses, donkeys, hellhorses It seems to pick stuff up - Does it? Not seen it happen once, do we have another bizarre trait like keen senses was where you have to work the easter egg out? Graceful eater - less chance to reduce a growth stage, presumably only has an effect when grazing on crops. Woohoo. Breeding? We are not breeding, the game, at random, selects ONE of the parents, and uses their dominant trait pool to generate a..... not clone. The offspring produced will seemingly randomly have more, the same or less of that dominant trait pool, and then out of nowhere, no type or hereditary involved, produce a couple of random traits. We used to breed horses, selecting the parents was important to the outcome, and took work and a plan to do so. Now it's just mash stuff together, and see what the RNG, not the player, produces. In the past with 70 husbandry I was able to, over several generations, select for 7 specific traits I wanted, any seven and fairly reliably produce them. Variety was being able to breed for ANY of the available traits, in ANY combination you chose. We sure as hell don't have that variety now, just a bunch of preassigned pools, with very low to negligble chances of most combination, and zero control of what will be produced. I'll say it again, this is not a skill, it has become a lottery. As to it being a beef about getting max points... I identified that this was the extreme, but that on almost all occasions I am getting less than the parents pool, and not once, in over 100 foals have I gotten an animal that has filled my available points. Breeding with the new horses? The first round of foals after this update had that many negatives, that as a breeder without a Fo priest (Which should not be a requirement) they were utterly useless. I stopped breeding horses, spent a week raising AH, and bred again after the next patch, which has fixed the negatives and almost none of those are at breeding age, but have clearly proven that the breeder is not in control of the outcome. A full month wasted, and almost every aspect worse than before the update still. Devs remain silent. A good 75% of the update was broken in my opinion. Horses die at complete random (lost another horse at young adult, absolutely no reason, not even the killer trait that was introduced). Many of our new "perks" for higher AH not working at all. The new rare speed trait doesn't work, and it will be hard to tell if half of the others are or aren't working. 4 draught trait horses are slower than old 5 speeds were when hitched by around 4-5kph, unless you get the rare (well that's would be assuming that they actually work, unlike the speed rare), and their speeds "stick". Our ability to breed horses is 100% gone. The game does what it wants, we have no input other than saying which basic pool we want by using two parents that have that pool dominant.

No, I have seen that one before, and this is different (From doing a lot of testing that one actually seems to have been resolved lately see here https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/184380-fixed-animals-on-hitching-post-moving-so-they-are-not-where-they-appear/ ). This one is only showing up on a post where the horses are hitched by one character, and another character who has all the necessarily permissions, on both the horse and the post, is told they cannot unhitch the horse by right clicking it, as they don't have the permissions, not the message you get about it being too far away.

That's great, because I'd like to hear from somebody who knows how the code is supposed to be working, and have them explain how the foal in the above example is in any way considered to be a reasonable outcome of a system that is supposed to be breeding towards dominant trait lines, yet regularly reduces either the number of points by giving lesser value ones, or straight out drops traits, especially when there are so many unspent available points? I got better results than this when I had 30 AH pre update. Hell, a 0 AH character got better results than this when breeding 2 horses with 4 matching traits. To be seeing it with 75 AH is absurd. This is the extreme end of the spectrum, but it really isn't that different to 50% of my foals turning up with less points in the dominant trait pool than either parent, and a bunch of useless output and misc traits. Potentially useful combat traits and draught traits are simply not even showing up (which must be especially annoying to PvP) - I have yet to see fight fierce or tough bugger in any foal, and draught traits are also conspicuously absent from speed dominant parents, and vice versa. Is this really intended, or is something broken?

Except this was bred after the last patch, had the game considered it to be inbreeding (and I know for a fact that it isn't) I would have got the nice orange warning text to tell me so, and should also have been penalised with negative traits, of which there are none. I have attempted to deliberately inbreed just to see if the warning actually takes places, and it does, so that would also rule that out.

Is this seriously meant to be acceptable? I find this even worse than the average drop to 2 speed traits, and a bunch of random crap... how the hell is the game working out traits and available AH points to come up with a foal like this, with 45 points unspent from two 65 point parents with matching traits? Is there a Dev even paying any attention to this crap? Communication once again AWOL. The changes to animal husbandry with this update, have taken it from being a skill.... to a lottery - with the odds stacked against you.

Now that I have a pair of draught horses with the 3 common effective traits (It has a strong body. It can carry more than average. It has strong legs.) I am seeing a lot of "sticking" with speeds. Without changing gear or weight carried the speed at which a cart will travel will spend long periods stuck on one speed or another and not change. Dismounting and remounting can often make a lightly laded cart with these horses and 70ql shoes with 80's woa go from being stuck on say 16.73kph for 10 minutes, to being able to do 22+kph again. I understand that the traits are kicking in and out.... but it certainly seems that they are doing so at very long intervals, unlike what i see when riding a horse with speed traits, where the speed is almost continuosly changing as the traits turn on and off.

May be related to not having hitched the horse on the character who is trying to unhitch? After hitching on the same character was then able to use the horse directly.

Keep on seeing an issue where I cannot directly unhitch a horse on a hitching post where I have permission to both lead the horse, and use the hitching post. If I attempt to unhitch by right clicking on the horse I am told I don't have permission to lead or I don't have permission to use the hitching post. If I right click the hitching post and use unhitch animals, it will then unhitch, proving I can use the hitching post. I am then able to lead and ride, showing I do have permissions for the horse.

The idea is to be able to clean an unwanted trait off a breeding line when it occurs, not to clean up every horse - you then use your cleaned up horse to breed with, thus requiring you to selectively breed for the line you want over time. I'm also not suggesting it as a way of removing negative traits, we have Fo preists and rites that can do that already. If we go back to being able to breed custom lines, remove the added output traits, and higher AH lowers negative trait chances, we are back to where we were, but with the addition of a few desired traits, and a once or maybe twice a day ability to clean off an unwanted neutral trait would mean that high AH was not a punishment as you were given a way to deal with being thrown a curve ball occasionally as result of your skill. It would still be hard work to introduce a particular desired trait each time your AH raised to the point where your cap allowed another trait in, but you would at least not be so much at the mercy of the RNG when it adds something you don't want - you may not progress towards your target on a particular foal, but you would also not be forced to discard it due to the appearance of a trait you don't want.

The water trait doesn't prevent getting kicked off... it gives a substantial boost to horse speed when triggered - in the vicinity of 5kph extra speed. I believe it was this trait and giving her test horse the rare always on trait that led to her reporting that 4s horses on test were now capable of doing 42kph, as the always on trait was turning on the water trait all the time.

At 20 AH all bred animals show in the inspect window as being wild creatures. Breeding timers still completely and utterly broken. Hungry status is always not hungry, no matter the condition of animal. I am now up to 7 horses that have either been born with no names or have lost their names when aging up, and this is after culling a couple that were born with no names, no traits and no parents. Combat window UI focus still broken. Wild parents do not show up in inspect window. Untraited bison and untraited horses have exact same pulling power hitched. Bison have no bonus? "Mules are also as good as draft creatures as horses". - Incorrect, untraited mules are substantially faster than both horses and bison hitched (A pair of mules was around 3kph faster when hitched to a large cart, and in testing performed better than horses with the 2 twenty point draught traits, as they did not vary in speed with traits turning on and off). Easy on gear continues to be an utterly useless trait having zero effect on anything. The TLDR of the post by Yserin up above, and pretty much I think how almost everyone feels, is that this whole update is a god awful mess, and people are so frustrated with it they are struggling to explain how they feel without being vitriolic. I started and stopped this post multiple times as it just started to get that way, and I was trying to make it constructive. For the sake of making different appearing horses (both new appearances of which are exceedingly ugly is the general opinion I have seen expressed) you have completely reworked a system that had some flaws that could have been addressed mostly by doing what was done this patch to decrease negative traits. The fact that bonus abilities for higher AH simply don't work at the moment is an added insult. With this round of horse breeding now coming out on non PvP, I see the negatives are gone, but still when breeding a horse with 3 speed traits to one with 4 speed traits, I more often than not drop to either 2 speed traits or 2 + the mostly useless water trait, making them slower, and a bunch of traits that nobody wants. Horse coat colours are still seemingly random. Without having been mentioned anywhere, it also seems that speed and draught traits have been made mutually exclusive. Nothing born with a speed pool has ANY draught traits and vice versa. Now that the also unmentioned negative effects of speed traits on hitched speeds has been removed, I'd literally prefer to be able to breed for the three working speed traits and a couple of draught again... but even at 100 AH, the fact that useful traits have gone from effectively costing 10 AH each up to 15 or 20 in most cases, would make this impossible even if I could. The idea of breeding to a dominant pool and just randoming the rest has got to be about the worst of it, there is no longer any skill involved in attempting to breed a custom line, just mash two dominant pools of the same type together and hope for the rng to do something good with the remainder, and 20 odd useless traits far outweighing useful ones. Frankly, it just plain sucks. Things I believe need doing: Get rid of output traits on animals to which they don't apply Get rid of speed and draught traits on animals to which they don't apply. Rebalance point cost back to where 10 points equals a useful trait. Go back to both parents contributing to breeding outcomes - if both parents have a matching trait, it is greatly favored to pass on over introducing new ones. If one parent has a trait and the other doesn't it 50/50's which one is passed on. At very high AH, give an abililty to once a day remove an unwanted trait from 1 horse, thus removing the inherent penalty of simply getting traits you don't want as a result of your having high AH skill. The higher AH having a reduced chance of negative was long suggested in forum threads, it's a pity it took this mess for it to be introduced, but that at least was a step in the right direction. Trying to have patience with this, but the frustration level is so high that I have gone from enjoying the game, to having to stop and take breaks to unclench my jaw and stop grinding my teeth.

Bump. Still occurs every single time I lead an animal into my mine. Goes invisible until i use my fix described above. Been around for months now, not acknowledged afaik, extremely annoying.

Logged in with no patch seemingly applied? Did servers come up too soon? Parents still reversed, but can now inspect over fences, relogged, still the same.

It's hard to not be completely frustrated when: Young mule, no speed or draught traits, 60ql shoes with no casts Aged former 5 speed ebony black, 70ql shoes, high 80's woa Aged former 5 speed ebony black, 60 ql shoes, 70's woa. No matter which combination of the above animals I hitch to a cart, the speed is exactly 15.86kph on the flat. Removing the shoes from the mule, speed becomes 15.10kph with the mule and either of the 5 speeds attached. Replacing the untraited, ungeared young mule with an aged untraited bison, which is supposed to have a bonus to hitched pulling, 13.67kph Are mules that much stronger than bison? Are bison currently broken? It's not knowing what is considered broken or being worked on that adds so much to how this affects players, if I knew that part of what was broken was related to the bison themselves, then I wouldn't be so concerned, if I knew that bison were currently working as intended and no fix was incoming, I could immediately give up on my attempts to breed draught bison from wild stock, as there would be no point, and concentrate on draught donkeys in order to breed draught mules. Why are all 3 of the first three listed the exact same speed? Did I somehow manage to hit on a combination of gear where both the mule and the lower geared horse have exactly the same contribution, and thus both are limited to the same speed? Would seem the chances of this are slim. Is it the code that is working out speeds of carts that is doing this? Again, not knowing what is broken because of no responses is just frustrating. This is all on top of the other issues with breeding and traits that have previously been listed. Communication. A post from one of the Devs detailing what was known, what was being worked on, what is as intended, what is broken. I have seen several such posts from Keenan when there are server issues, I think it's high time something similar was done here.

Anyone have the trait on sheep or cows? I don't breed them but wondered if maybe it was they stopped running away when players moved close to them, rather than stopped pathing around? This is the problem with not having trait function descriptions fleshed out, you don't know exactly what is supposed to happen, so can't tell if it is or isn't working.

I stuck up a PSA on my horse sales thread warning people not to buy existing 5 speeds the moment I finished reading the Valrei "Feeding time" update, and then removed all keys once the patch went live and it became apparent how badly things had been nerfed with respect to hitched horses, went from selling a dozen or more horses a week to nothing, voluntarily as an act of conscience and posted an apology to those who had recently bought off me, I felt like I had done them a disservice. I announced this PSA in trade as often as I had been advertising sales for a while, to make sure people who regularly came to buy had a chance to see before wasting their time with a trip. I could be continuing to sell to the unwary, or promoting new 4s horses as being something special, when they are in fact no better and seemingly inferior in truth. Won't be resuming sales until there is a hell of a lot more clarity, and assurance that thing wont get reworked again to the point where I am again selling horses that people shortly after regret buying. The fact that I ground an additional 20+ points on AH over the next 2 weeks, only to make the situation worse... leaves me somewhat salty to say the least.

No other foals have died out of several dozen, only the ones with the extremely sick trait, out of more than 50 foals. There may be a secondary problem going on, but the chances of this not being the cause of these foals deaths seems pretty much negligible. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While I am here, I wish to say that I am in no way meaning to blame Demona for the communication issues, making somebody a CM and then clearly failing to pass on vital details (or even, it becomes apparent, with keeping them up to date with changes) and leaving them to hang out to the public is about the biggest failing I can see with this whole issue. The company seems to have very little cohesion in the way separate parts are working, or failing to work, with others. In any other online game I have played, I have seen patches rolled back within an hour or two of going live when it becomes apparent there are major flaws. This update had many, many flaws, both gameplay and world breaking (hello grazing causing terrain deformation?). How it went live I fail to understand at all, how it was monitored once it did go live also seems to have been seriously lacking - but then, how would we really know? The lack of communication, and only seeing the way people were responded to when they started reporting these bugs, certainly made it look like it wasn't being watched closely.

I have an aged 4sp (just by luck i found one that had keen senses and the 3 other speed traits on a fallen deed) testing it against old 5 speed horses, it is no faster unless you can find a long stretch of shallow water that doesn't dismount you or hit points of depth that make you stick - so no. The only time these horses will be of actual benefit is if they have the always on trait, so that keen senses is activated (this is an assumption and is the only reason I can find that Demona was able to go so much faster on her test horse she gave the rare always on trait than I can achieve on live). The actuality of things is, the old 5 speeds still perform as well, if not better than the new 4 speed horses once you are carrying any amount of weight. I am back to riding a old 5 speed (3s 2d?) ebony as it achieves higher top speed and seems to be penalised less for carrying weight. Edit: this applies to riding only. As far as using them for pulling (whether intended or not) they seem to be taking a penalty for being the hot blooded body type - wild/untraited horses actually do better, despite the old 5 speeds having 2 draught traits.

3 out of 4 foals born with the "Extremely sick" now dead at or before adolescent foal age. I'm not sure what your version of a very slim chance is, but by my book it looks more like a high probability. Given the messed up states of so many negatives and so many useless traits, it now seems that having access to a Fo priest is mandatory. Whoever came up with this trait is a sad and sorry soul as far as I am concerned, either that or they have seemingly no idea on how what they are doing turns out once it is in game. Given the mess that this update was, and continues to be, I tend to believe the latter. Insufficient testing, almost no communication, and three weeks later still most of the update not working, and totally missed the whole problem of Higher AH being worse, only increasing the problem. Giving sleep bonus and telling us to use it on AH? Who in their right mind would want higher AH at the moment, the higher it gets all it does is make the animals increasingly random, pulling in traits that do nothing, don't even apply to the category they are listed under, don't have any affect on the animal that they are on, or are negative, with the ultimate insult being they outright kill your animals if you don't have a Fo priest available. Horses losing their colour, their names, their parents. (Some lose just one of these, some two, some all, some on birth, some when aging up) Wild parents do not show up on inspect. Breeding timers don't work. Hungry status doesn't work. Vehicle speeds useless, getting slower with higher quality. Trait that doesn't apply to its category. Trait that regularly kills animals. Higher point pools being a penalty by just pulling in mostly negative or useless traits, not breeding to dominant or existing traits. Points for traits still wrong after 3 weeks. Animal points on no occasion after several dozen animals being as high as my AH, at best more than 5 points below, and only then by pulling in 5 point negatives. Animal food consumption amounts seeming vastly increased, especially if feeding from containers The ability to breed custom animals through a careful selection of parents over generations? Tossed out the window to dominant pool plus RNG. Despite assurances, riding horses slower unless you are low weight. (Rare trait always on activating keen senses test error?) Parents reversed on inspect window Steam client failing to close properly, consuming huge amounts of memory. Basically speaking from what I do in game, there is more not working than working correctly. Seems a bit beyond just tuning, and I have seen all of two comment addressing issues: Darklords on the 28th, acknowledging points were wrong in lists, saying it would be resolved soon, seemingly a very minor fix, not in patch, still wrong. Samool on the 6th, saying they believed they had fixed the vehicle speed bugs and would be in next update and mentioning tweaks later - also apparently didn't make the patch as they didn't regain any speed.