Delone

I know several people, some of whom were not even breeders, for whom this was the last straw and the reason they are now quiet here is due to them no longer playing. I watched in trade last night people giving away all their stock as they had given up waiting for a fix, don't know if that was them in the process of giving up on playing. Today's results confirmed it for me, with over 80% of animals producing worse offspring than both parents, I have given up. Culling most of the animals born just left me with a sour taste in my mouth. Began the sad act of mothballing my 4 deeds in the hope that there will be some action at some point. Could only take so much of it though, found it really depressing to be in this place with this game. This entire update was done so poorly, and with so little thought to the repercussions of what they were doing (or perhaps the complete indifference to how it would affect people who had spent months, if not years in establishing breeding lines). Will do a bit more each day for the next couple of days to get everything into bare maintenance mode. Harmony chat the last few times I've been on has been silent for hour and hours at a time... to think where this server was just 12 months ago, and to see it now, a very sad indictment on a wasted opportunity, and I think the poor communication with players is in many ways responsible. Off to give No Man's Sky another go, it started off being less than expected, and according to many is now delivering on it's promises. Wurm sadly seems to be going in the exact opposite direction, each update has delivered worse gameplay, more bugs (many of which never get rectified) and increasingly stale content.

^^ this.

Agreed, better make sure the "donkey" in the list has a capital D. As somebody who has had several unnamed horses, and even horses that have lost their names after birth, that doesn't look very convincing to me.

Yes, I am seeing this as well. The image I used in the reply was just to show an example of combat being chosen as the dominant trait, was not meaning to have a go at you at all, just illustrating that it is not just speed and draught that get chosen as the dominant trait to be rolled on. Like you, I am seeing a better ratio of 3 and 4 draught foals coming from less pure parents, specifically NOT from parents that have the two 20 point traits, where if I do manage a 3 draught it is worse than its parents as it has rolled off a 20 point trait for the utterly useless gear trait. The bulk of my speed breeding stock is still old 5 speeds (3 speed, 2 draught) and there I am seeing plenty of 4 speed trait foals, even if the extra speed trait is pretty much not worth having. As a result of this, I haven't really been breeding pure speed trait horses to see what the outcomes are, but now that I have thought about it, I will start putting a few together to see if the outcomes are as poor as they are when breeding pure draught horses together.

Agreed we do not know the chance weighting, but higher point cost traits are less likely to pass on: "Traits have point values now which influence their chance to pass on and how many traits." On a good 75% of offspring with parents having two 20 point traits one, if not both as shown above, will get lost. They have literally introduced a system that favors the loss of the very traits you are trying to breed for by making them more expensive/rarer, thus opening the way for another category to become dominant (Edit: or tied for dominant) as they contain multiple 5/10 point traits that commonly get rolled on. There are four categories that can be dominant: Speed, Draught, Combat and Output. The lower point values of (translate as higher weighted to get rolled on) some output, combat and misc is why you see these getting rolled onto almost every horse born, and rarely see speed on a draught horse or vice versa, they are not actually exlcusive, but their chance of being rolled on is slim due to the weighting against them. This is also why you don't see the higher point value combat and output traits getting rolled onto a speed or draught based horse, but do see a constant barrage of low point ones. This by the way: Is both an expected result, and an example of a combat dominant being chosen. The female, Northflea, has been selected as the progenitor and she is a 3 way tie for dominant. Of the three choices, it selected combat and rolled based on that. Due to combat having several cheap point options (higher chance of not failing to roll on) you jump straight from a single combat trait to three. Several of the other examples demonstrate again that higher point values are getting rolled off, and the low easy to obtain other point traits are causing the dominant pool to switch or become tied for dominance. The new system is inherently biased against breeding for the very traits you want, whether by design, or through a misunderstanding of what they have actually done.

Under any explanation I have seen of the breeding system, this is clear proof that breeding is not working as intended: Regardless of which parent was chosen for breeding, it has not bred for that trait pool, and has not merely tied the pool on the offspring but swapped it completely to a different dominant category. Breeding with 75 AH, it has tossed out both of the 20 point draught traits on both parents and replaced them with low point value more common traits from output, and then added in 2 misc pool ones. Despite this, the offspring has less points than either of its parents, and only used 40 of my supposedly 75 available points. This IMO is not merely not working as intended, it is utterly broken.

Dear Devs, Can you please explain again what the new breeding is meant to do? Because as far as I can see, this clearly demonstrates that it is not working as intended, and breeding is a complete lottery system: Dominant trait pool has not carried through, spent only 40 of my 75 supposed AH points. Clear demonstration of 20 point traits being rolled off due to weighting against them in favor of lower trait point outcomes. This is so f***ed up it's just not fun. The better my breeders get for supposedly producing a dominant category, the more I am seeing retarded results like this.

Ta, incorporated into post

A players perspective, from the point of breeding riding/hitching animals, of the new and changed trait system and other AH update changes: (Humor, dark) It has very strong leg muscles (changed): movement speed bonus (speed) (old movement / carry bonus) change: we took away the carry bonus and made it just speed. Still made it worth 10 of your AH It has keen senses (changed) to "It seems accustomed to water": moves faster in shallow waters (speed) We took a trait that was more of an easter egg due to the weird combination / unlikely scenario of it actually being triggered, and replaced it with a speed boost that will only work when riding in shallow water, where you will either continuously hit patches too deep and stop, or if in water of allowable depth of 5 and flat, you will get kicked off your horse every few seconds. Due to the speed increase, this will now happen more often. Sweet! It seems more nimble than normal: increased max ridable slope (Draft, Rare) We gave you a trait which you will rarely see, but unless all the hitched animals have it (very unlikely) will probably not actually be able to make any difference. It gives more resources: Increases output of resources such as wool and milk (Output) We added this in so that it could fill in points when you don't get the traits you want on animals that don't produce milk or wool. It seems more friendly: Easier to tame (Combat) Another filler trait to take up points where you would much prefer something useful, seems to show up on well over 50% of animals. Uses points better spent elsewhere. It seems prize winning: Gives better products when butchered (Output) It looks plump and ready to butcher: Gives more products when butchered (Output) At least when we are now culling 80% of our breeding results, we have a high chance of getting more items from them. \o/ It seems to pick stuff up: Chance to dig something up when eating, drops items on the ground (Output) Because we took away the keen senses easter egg trait, we had to add another one. Some really weird combination of events will actually trigger this to work (If it isn't just completely broken like many suspect). Maybe tamed, on lead by a food container for hours, during a triple conjunction of moons, within 30 minutes of a server restart. /shrug It only costs 5 points, might as well have it fill the last few points of my AH I have.... no wait, it never does. It has strong legs: Carry weight bonus (Draft) This is the carry bonus we took off you from first trait listed above (It has very strong leg muscles). Here, you can have it back. Previously both traits cost you 10 of your AH, now that they are split you can have them back for the bargain basement price of just 30 AH points! (But not on the same animal, we split dominant pools remember) It seems to be a graceful eater: Less chance to reduce the growth stage of a tile when eating (Misc) Because we changed the way animals eat, they now need a trait to do something to prevent them from setting back growth stages continuously till you just end up with seeds or a flower or thatch sitting on a dirt tile. It is easy on it’s gear: Equipped gear takes less damage (Draft) As well as nerfing speed on vehicles, we were intending to make hitched animals start damaging their gear. In the rush to release this bug filled update, we somehow missed out on adding this nerf. This trait was going to give you back something you used to have for free, at the cost of 10 AH points. Now it just costs you 10 AH points, and given the fallout, we are probably not game to nerf gear damage on hitched animals. Does absolutely nothing. It looks extremely sick: Has a very slim chance to pass away when it recieves a hunger tick (Negative) We decided there was not enough grief in the update, so we added this one in. Unfortunately, with the way animals are now eating weirdly, they sometimes graze 6 times in a second, multiple times a day. Outcome: your very slim chance of death is around 1 in 5. If the animal makes it to adult, it's a miracle. Rejoice! It has a chance to produce twins: Chance to birth twins (Misc, Rare) We'll give you a rare trait, with a CHANCE to have twins. Maybe. (sadly only seen it show once, on a non inbred animal with 3 negatives, 2 speed (one of which was water trait, see above) - Not an animal I wanted to have any offspring, let alone multiple at once. It seems vibrant: Increases output of resources (Output) Not sure this does anything. If only I could milk/shear my horses/donkeys/mules/hell horses, maybe I could find out. Another common point stealer that you would really just prefer not to get. Edit: We missed the days where actions produce scraps, so in tribute sheep sheared with this trait produce little leftover bits when spinning uncombined amounts (Thanks for the info SmeJack) It has a slow metabolism: eats half as much as a normal animal (Misc) Due to the weird multi-grazing feeding actions when feeding containers are anywhere around, we needed a trait to stop them emptying said containers twice a day. Here you go. Oh, this took points you wanted to spend on speed or draught traits? Sorry. (Also suspect this one causes animals not to fatten up, leaving them at the prospect of suddenly dropping dead of starvation WHILE showing not hungry on inspect, despite the fact that they are). It looks more friendly than normal: Less likely to be attacked by aggressive creatures when tame (Combat) Your combat pet is a really nice critter, will stop and have a chat with the Trolls, totally disarming them with its pleasant personality and bright sunny nature, and they will wander off to go attack that grumpy player instead. Due to this trait having increased the livability prospects of many generations, it has become a dominant trait (translation, this one shows up on almost every animal, costing you points you wanted spent on speed or draught) It is especially loyal: keeps loyalty to its tamer longer, loses less when taking damage (Combat) Your pet loves you. It doesn't mind the fact that you keep sending it in to get mauled by bears and crocodiles, it would do anything for you. Will stay tame right up until that Venerable Champion Troll wipes it from the face of the earth. It looks stationary: will stay put as if saddled (Misc) This one could actually be handy, no more having to saddle animals to stop them from walking straight to the newly planted crop/grass tile and grazing it bare instantly. Sadly, was coded at the exact same point where having saddled creatures meant they took off for the hills the moment you dismounted/unhitched them, and means these guys seem to run around your enclosures even more than normal. Oh well you didn't really want draft or speed traits anyway. It is unbelievably fast: always on speed bonus similar to hell horses (Speed, Rare) This one is actually pretty good, makes for a really zippy riding horse, IF it shows up AND is on one that has the 3 working speed traits (not that water one, see above). Really annoying to see it turn up on your sheep. It has very good genes: increased amount and quality of resources like milk and wool (Output, Rare) No seriously it does. The ones made from the kind of Denim you only could get in the old days. Like Levi or... no wait, that's something else.. 😜 Other important changes: Animals will now move to feed from unlocked containers - Animals will become fixated on the food container they can't get to, and will starve to death while standing on enchanted grass. Mules are also as good as draft creatures as horses. - That scrawny mule is now better at pulling vehicles than your husky new horses and beefy bison. Sorry if that wasn't the look you were going for as you ride your battle cart into combat. Introduced new body shapes for horses. Horse body shape depends on the horse’s trait set. - We have been lazy and just stretched/shrunk the models instead of giving you a proper draught horse with it's own skin, or a nice looking hot blood. Welcome to the world of steroid gym freaks and Raptor headed horses! New: Traits now have categories, the majority category on a creature excluding negative and miscellaneous traits will influence how traits are passed on greatly preferring to pass on its majority to its child. Dominant category is picked from either the mother or the father randomly. - We're really sorry you liked being able to breed for the actual traits you wanted, we will now produce offspring by cloning one of the parents. Except.... well the clone will only have some of the majority of the traits the parent had, most likely losing those 20 point ones you want to replace them with gear or water ones, and just rolling the dice on everything else. Expect most of those to be ones you have no use for. Custom bred longer lived, more disease resistant horses? Riding horses with useful combat traits? Sorry, we saw you breeding for horses you wanted, so we separated those into different dominant pools. Not going to happen. If both parents have no traits all categories of traits receive a bonus to seed the initial traits Breeding from wild has a good chance to give you 4 traits, but only from the misc pool. Don't expect it for draught or speed. Traits have point values now which influence their chance to pass on and how many traits. The more a trait influences speed or draught capabilities, the more points we will charge you for it, and the rarer it is. This makes the 20 point traits you want harder to get, roll off the next generation more often, and they also only used to account for 10 of your AH, not 20. Sneaky eh? 😜 There is still a cap of 10 traits per creature (this does not include traits like “bred in captivity”) We are still capping you at one trait per 10 points of AH. To make up for the fact that some single traits now cost 20 points, we will give you a bunch of 5 point ones to fill in the difference, but don't expect to spend any 5 points over an even 10 point amount, as that would let you squeeze in, say, 8 traits when you only have 75 AH. Old “5-speed” horses will be the same as they were before the update, and will go the same base speed. Oh, except for that bit where we included hidden nerfs to them being able to pull hitched vehicles for every speed trait. Oh, and that bit where while riding them the previous carry bonuses from some traits don't do anything and they will slow to a walk if you carry more than a twig. Vehicles now slow down as they gain load. Putting more than a couple of rocks in will slow you to the speed where you can't escape mobs. Oh, at the same time we did this, we nerfed every bison bred for working speed boosts to have speed penalties, took 3 out of 5 speed boost for horses / hell horses and made them not only do nothing, but actually slow them down extra when hitched. You're welcome. In several months time breeders will just about be getting to the stage where you can do the same you could do before. Maybe. Well, if all the 20 point traits didn't keep getting rolled off each generation. A vehicle’s quality helps offset the weight in a vehicle, this effect starts at above 30 quality and will reduce the weight penalty up to 3x at 100 quality. Up until 30 quality, it doesn't do much, once you hit that point it penalises you, and by about 90ql you can go at sub 30 ql again. Nice. Players shouldn’t notice much difference outside wagons loaded up with tons of materials. If they have their head in a sack, on a moonless Wurm night, under the old renderer in heavy fog. Can't imagine why people weren't happy with all this

Not sure how you took that entire post and pulled that from it, feels more like a personal attack on the poster. You contributed nothing to the ongoing discussion, and as such it appears to be pure trolling, perhaps you should be referred here: https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/123123-wurm-online-rules/ Read the section on forum rules, and stick to the topic.

I'd be guessing it's a reference to that "one breeder" they are working with, and seems to be completely at odds with the rest of an entire community, leaving them having to deal with the results?

I don't know how else to explain the 4 misc trait donkey foals/mules I get when I kept and used donkeys born with a single misc trait as breeders, I sure as hell am not seeing 4s or 4d foals/mules turn up at random, but with a single misc on a donkey being bred, I do see pure 4 misc results, where the other parent is either speed or draught dominant.

Does this mean we are actually using both parents again, but still using a dominant pool? There was no "both parents having it" according to previous patch notes? The more breeding I have done, the clearer it has become that weighting traits with points has just meant the traits you want roll off very often in the next generation. Unless this has changed, I can't see "tweaks" making much difference. Having not opened testing to players and going live with a massively bugged update "we are doing internal testing on them currently" does not feel reassuring to me. So much this ^^. Without it, having higher AH is still worse now than it was before the whole update. Add in the output traits as well, and your chances of breeding a horse with the traits you want is well nigh impossible. Gear and water traits are both even worse than negative traits, they effectively do nothing, and take up an even larger chunk of points when you roll them than half the annoying output and misc traits. They should either be replaced with something that adds a small increase in draught / speed or just flat gotten rid of. I do not know a single player who wants these traits, they are useless points stealers. Saying that misc traits as a whole will be less likely is also not exactly comforting to hear, spark and strong and healthy were actually two of the more desired traits players would breed for on PvE, back when we had some input into the outcome of our breeding. Likewise FF and Tough for PvP, and these two traits have just about vanished due to combat being it's own separate pool. The whole concept of dominant pools seems flawed to me, as it gives us cookie cutter pre-destined outcomes, that don't even vaguely match what people used to custom breed for, even disregarding the idea of splitting speed from draught. I would dance with joy to hear it had been totally scrapped as a bad idea, and we were returning to the previous methods of breeding, but with the higher AH reducing the chance of negatives, and some way to custom breed in traits we want, not just randomly add on ones we really, really don't.

Could it be that the message seen is from a failed action on behalf of the animal, and it does something more if it manages to sneak itself a treat?

Careful, the way thing are going in Wurm, you will get what you ask for.... they will just totally nerf Hell horses, that way the gap is less 😜