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Showing content with the highest reputation on 22/02/17 in all areas

  1. 8 points
    Alright, jokes and light hearted ribbing aside, let's break down a few things. Blanket mass market advertsing is an archaic form of advertising and is prohibitively expensive, the only real companies that manage this are AAA games that rely on blanket coverage to get the name out there and have huge advertising budgets to back up the millions spent in development cost and input. Wurm has struggled with being known in the past and online presence can be an important thing, it's the difference between "wurm? whats that?" and "wurm? i've heard of that, what's it like?" Blanket advertising across many sites and formats gets presence out there but does little to convert to actual sales, it's spending money to be a recognisable game. Beyond that, you have more targeted advertising. Instead of standing in the middle of a shopping center yelling your new game name out you're approaching people in a gaming store, people who will be more interested in your product and thus spending less time and effort (money) focusing on them to attract players rather than just getting your name out there. This is where sites such as Facebook, Twitter and Reddit push their advertising, being able to identify and address your target audience all through their tools, and why we use these focuses. Saying you enjoy playing MMO games as a genre is similar to saying "I like eating at restaurants" There's so many aspects of it and so many different variations around the simple mmo mechanic of multiple people online. Sandbox as a genre has also been watered down in MMO gaming, with many "sandboxes" simply being a theme park with a few options to customise, rather than the open ended self goal orientation of Wurm. This is why we use more targeted advertising through social media. Modern MMOS have a huge budget behind them and is actually why so many of them fail or become pay to win quickly, they need to recoup massive development costs and after spending so much on that, advertising is just another fraction of that cost so they go with more mass market appeal. So the question is "what are we doing?" With 1.3 we focused on contacting MMO sites and begin getting the game out there, updating our press information as well as beginning coordinating with other sites and ensuring that our third party information is up to date. People nowadays use three forms of reference when looking into a game, social circles, third party sites, and the site itself. Social circles is always powerful advertising, knowing someone who enjoys the game is a huge draw, as it instantly means they're not alone in this new game, it's why we use Facebook and Twitter to do all those "share and like" giveaways, not to get random people to see it but so friends of those who do play can see it. Secondly there's third party sites, congregated MMO sites and things like that. With 1.3 and since I have been in contact with many of those and have had my CRA team also working on keeping those updated, ensuring that all accurate information is available to them, we're also working on other projects to help there such as giveaways and sponsoring. Lastly, there's our site, Wurmonline.com and the forums. This is where we share the bulk of our information directly, and it's where a lot of new and prospective players will come to check out the game and ultimately decide if its worth their time and money to play. What they read on the forums shapes their view of the game and the playerbase, it's important that we focus on sharing just what is going on within the game and community and thus the weekly news/valrei int'l. We track player stats across many aspects, namely new players coming into wurm via golden valley, and premium numbers. While new player counts have gone up, conversion to premium is low. This means that spending more money on blanket advertising does not solve the issue, and that there are key areas we can improve the game to maximize the effectiveness of what we spend on in advertising. What are our plans for the future? Wurm Unlimited reviews have given us extra insight into the issues new players face in Wurm, namely the UI, the usual graphics complaints, and learning curve. This is why we are working on an updated UI that provides a better experience without relying on the event bar to play (A fun trick is trying to play with the event bar minimised and seeing what you can and can't do.. I need to get out more). A new tutorial that truly showcases just what Wurm is while also helping ease players into the game and also provide better systems for learning on the go is in the works as well, and as that comes to fruition we will share more then too. Those of you who have used the unstable client know just how awesome Wurm looks with better shading and lighting, and that will be in long before the other two (soon we hope!) Until then we'll continue to work on social circle incentives, competitions that can provide rewards such as premium and silver and focus on easing a few of those old gripes that players have had over the years, so when the updated UI comes we can begin our big push and ensure that the players that do join find Wurm to be a much easier game to get into. We're here for the long term, and will continue to work on improving core aspects of the game and addressing existing and new player issues, we've come a long way in the past year and we look forward to seeing what comes. I hope that answers the burning questions about why we aren't on billboards and site wide ads, larger advertising rounds will occur during major updates and will remain options down the line.
  2. 3 points
    We’re pleased to confirm that PayPal transactions are back up and running, all purchases should be processed within the next hour and will return to their usual speed from now on. We appreciate your patience during this time. -The Wurm team
  3. 3 points
    TBH I think it should be built into the mirror that you get at the beginning.
  4. 3 points
    Like ropes are based on your ropemaking skill, and yoyos on toymaking, and locks on locksmithing. I fail to see the major issue here, production goes from raw material > refinement process > result for all priests, bar nahjos who still get around 6 favour from a 100ql garlic without having to do anything other than pull it out of the ground.
  5. 3 points
    That! THAT! *screams loudly and points at it* THAAAT! Also my empirical statistics based on the considerable number of "hardcore online players" I used to play with before finding Wurm... 0% of them stayed in Wurm. Only ONE actually played for like, a month or two. Majority of them barely survived few hours and 'logging off and never coming back' was common during the Tutorial. This is from the time of SmurfWurm, the green people. I heard all sort of things, one surfacing most was "lol you slide and lol no animations and lol graphics". So what has happened? ALL OF THAT HAS BEEN "FIXED!". Sadly, I am probably never able to make those players try Wurm again. Trough the years of playing I've also been privileged to observe quite many people start out and vanish. One common pattern is that players are more likely wanting to "achieve things by themselves" which means that me as an "established player with thousands or tens of thousands of every possible resource in the game and mastery in so many skills" is there only to make new players uncomfortable. They want to make their fingernails bleed in struggle of foraging around for that one pumpkin, then sow it as field which they lovingly tend until it can be harvested. This is a metaphor of "having done it all by yourself". I could just drive my cart into their little slum of 4 packed uneven tiles with wooden fence around it... and present them with supplies that would take them YEARS! To accomplish all by themselves. So I've learned not to offer anything to new players... lately not even much deeper knowledge. It is a fact that in my early days I also loved to discover things myself and feel the accomplishment of making a sickle (which I remember being very long and confusing process within my first hours of playing.) Then there are those players who stick to me like glue, asking me to make them pretty much every single thing. Or ask me how to make nail, how to make large nail, how to make ribbon. Despite me every time showing screenshot of crafting window (or in early days show the activated item and targeted item with context menu options) with red highlights and arrows. Some harshly uneducated dissecting; So if I would go and black&white the crop out of players, these two types would be the distinct ones. Type 1: Self discovery, exploration, curiosity, internally entertained. Type 2: Driven by thrill and competition, group types, externally entertained. Remaining players of both types tend to deviate in two distinct paths; Type 1: Self-sufficiency, personal empire building, maximization of everything. Type 2: PvP, community events like unique slays, rifts, hota... (Note; There is gray area in everything, also in between of these types. Some people are like "ambitypes" of these two types. Which is why I mention the distinction.) Not remaining players of both types tend to deviate in distinct reasons: Type 1: Knowledge/resource/discovery saturation. Type 2: Combat system, boredom, loneliness. So what does all this have to do with OP [Marketing thread]? Realize that if we would be running "Dads who dress as princesses" Club in this city, we would need to advertise it the way EVERY single dad should be targeted with advertising. Then accept that only a small fraction of those are curious enough to come see what it is about, and only a tiny fraction of those will become regular participants. As Retro points out in his response. Wurm is "a sandbox MMO". These days we have to call it "a true sandbox MMO" because they are calling all kind of games "sandboxes". Now some other games actually follow suit and start calling them "a true sandbox MMO" also, so we need to start calling Wurm "a real true actual sandbox MMO" and the spin goes on. See the pattern? It is beautiful point that people do not even seem to understand it. And theres that, Wurm is spearhead to show what "sandbox" as a word means, and there is (hopefully) gonna be a game which will shove the spear further and make Wurm look like themepark game. Somehow Wurm has been managing to have healthy number of players which suggests that any "marketing strategy" they have got and will have is probably as good as it is. Especially when considering putting Wurm ad on Superbowl, just imagine that. The "demographics of players" who we'd expect to stay in Wurm, and whats coming pouring out of the... whatever the super bowl is, when its spilled and poured. Issue is not how Wurm team is marketing/advertising, nor the issue in how game (or community) is treating new players. There is no Issue. Wurm is just popularity equivalent to "dads who dress as princesses" club.
  6. 3 points
    looking for some PCs on Salempl Would come naked or with full lot that I will be posting in a bit. Taking offers both ways, thats the way I like it No trolling fealls, rl is a ###### and wives hate wurm. I have known for a few days, but tried to fight it. She won. Skills dumped at Feb 16, 2017-----Skills: 0.0Close thread
  7. 2 points
    Reserve not met. I get to keep it Her ! ty all for bidding no next time Unfortunately. she's mine A wooden cupboard, used to store small amounts of precious liquids. Used to store up to 10 different liquids with reduced decay. Notes Can be planted. Has ten vials with room for 2kg liquid each. Cannot be mailed. Has to be empty in order to be picked up Glows ? YES it is the sexiest glowing item in game I have ever seen ! Above image is of a normal one imgure acting funny will update rare glow one eventually. ( this will not get re auctioned )
  8. 2 points
    1.allow dragging from crate/bsb in wagon directly into pile 2.allow dragging actual mass quantities, e.x. 300 ore from one crate into another crate without having to shift drag and hit the button 100 times, or one drag from a bsb to a smelter to put 100 ore in both very simple changes inb4 realism from people who are okay with dragons
  9. 2 points
    This is a seriously awesome service, very professional and easy to deal with. 5 hours of affinity for one little bite, cant beat that.
  10. 2 points
  11. 2 points
    are you implying dragons are NOT real?
  12. 2 points
    Vulcan's Retreat (or vulcans point) when the original wulfgar owned it 3 years ago. Bonegetter had it for a while. it neighbours my deed and bay and leads to `Xanadu H`.. a name i gave my colossus for navigators lol. I agree, the work that's been done is Impressive. I'm working on a road from this location to haleohana, from time to time, at the moment. (edit- completed!) Well done man and well done to anyone that helped you. it looks better than it ever has.
  13. 2 points
    Spammed thousand of chop actions and had less than 5 come out under 100 ql so not sure how you are having so much trouble with this.
  14. 2 points
    Sacrifice is not possible for those who have independent characters that do not "follow" any Wurmy gods. All are not of the same mind in their Wurm pursuits or beliefs. Better then a system that works for all like *discard* or for those afraid to use it maybe instead let them just be dumped into trash heaps and dissolve like other objects in there. Let's just not make some convoluted method of disposal exclusive to some characters or some other tedious type of process involving a lot of time. =Ayes=
  15. 2 points
    If You were famous blogger or youtuber they would. Otherwise no candies for common players. On a serious note, it's just a game, with pixels and data. Why just not change someone's gender if player would feel better after that, would enjoy game more? Of course, after that change there would be more players who would like the same, but again, why not? Just limit it to 1-2 times for every account and move on. It's just a game.
  16. 2 points
    How to make Wurm great again. Remove Player Gods Rework Vanilla Gods Bring Posteh Back Merge Epic and Freedom Never Ever Ban Someone For Saying Gary
  17. 2 points
    has it ever been hooked up to any sort of bigscreen 4k tv type monitor, or do you always use the regular laptop monitor? my other thought was if the launcher somehow got pushed/dragged "offscreen" but then you would at least be having a wurm process showing up in the task manager, and I think you checked that already I am again out of ideas but i will again brood over it and come back if anything else occurs to me, hopefully one of the wurm client developers might spot this and have an idea (if it is still not working tomorrow, if it were me i would probably start PMing select devs as they don't always read every forum post, and two days without Wurm is about my max tolerance)
  18. 2 points
    Agreed roland. Xsamuraizx also known as horse ###### 2000
  19. 2 points
    rare rakes are clearly 6 dollars, tops. unless its enchanted, got woa on that one?
  20. 2 points
    if i sell my new rare rake we can invest 8 dollars
  21. 2 points
    That was me with the newspaper post anyway, don't give Retro credit for my well thought out, top shelf sass. He can't come close to my level of sass. The Facebook posts that were talked about on the last page of this thread were in response to someone asking about why they were used, since they'd only go to people that have already liked the page - not past marketing campaigns. With the 1.3 release we had multiple ad campaigns running across multiple websites, and we invested at least a whole dollar. Future targeted campaigns will be run when it makes sense to based on update cycles and using the data that we already gather, and we'll invest like, at least 2 or 3 dollars - maybe 4, we'll see..
  22. 2 points
    That sounds about right for this account give or take 50e.
  23. 2 points
    No! There is already an advanced off deed decay mechanic that greatly increases it when a player has not logged into the game for around 40 days. Then if you also put perimeter over it you prevent it from being repaired. This is sufficient to allow a deed to eventually and inevitably over time to destroy any house in the way of its expansion. Patience required. Beyond this, now way should any player be able to "take over" a house that another has built unless on their deed already. Pity the poor immigrant that might loose their home over the mechanisms of the greedy landholder, which by the way already exist in the ways that I have mentioned. =Ayes=
  24. 2 points
    ok smeagain Lets be real, any and all pets have an abysmal hit chance and every weapon except for polearms do ass for damage when equipped on any mob, including avatars and uniques, and they still do ass for damage if they arent attacking a mount or a mounted player. useful? very situational, better than a 5spd hellhorse? 9/10 times no. the speed will be more beneficial every single time unless you have no need to move anywhere. this does not change the fact that a lib lock is a creation of pure ###### stupidity and myc directly harming cffp is seems like an oversight as it forces you to go out of your way to remove your "gods chosen land" to get timed affinities and more stamina/stamina use reduction. if you want an overpowered god, look at smeagain, prime example of something that should be nerfed into the ground, not poor little libila. it has two passives, dmg bonus and a res stone (pretty sure it has CR too) which is much more than lib it has two pillars, fungus trap (the best pillar in the game damage wise) and ice pillar it has weakness and smite, the two best spells for unique hunting it has light of fo and heal, making it the best choice for land and boat battles and as an added cherry on top, it has cure medium which is quite useful for horse healing in pvp. it also has oakshell and refresh, the two most useful utility spells in the game. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, but i dont see you complaining about this, or does the ability to hit a 5 damage wound on someone every minute via a zombie pet overpower this? wtb playergod removal, vanilla god rework.
  25. 1 point
    It would be nice to have a woodshed the size of a 1x1 building that you cannot enter but open it up like a BSB to store logs in. Not sure if it is doable, but would be nice.
  26. 1 point
    Judging from the MethodsReligion file, priests are supposed to be able to heal people in a 3x3 area around them when they pray. The reason this never happens is because of how the game chooses the y-coordinates, as seen below: for (int x = Zones.safeTileX(performer.getTileX() - 1); x <= Zones.safeTileX(performer.getTileX() + 1); ++x) { for (int y = Zones.safeTileX(performer.getTileX() - 1); y <= Zones.safeTileX(performer.getTileX() + 1); ++y) { It uses the x-coordinate for both the x- and y- loops. So for example, if your altar is located at (500, 250), you won't heal the 3x3 area around you. Instead, you'll heal a 3-tile diagonal line centered at (500, 500), hundreds of tiles away from your altar. I'm on mobile, so apologies for the bad formatting.
  27. 1 point
    I cannot begin to tell you how thrilled I am that my 99QL vegetables give me 88QL chopped ones because my sacraficing is now linked to cooking instead of farming. I thought I would tell you how much better my priest's life is these days.
  28. 1 point
    I'm totally taking offence to your inoffensive statement! Alas it is true though, I am not a developer nor smart enough to be. For the question at hand though this is the community help for what is possible, perhaps you could try the suggestion forum for what isn't possible.
  29. 1 point
    There are no tools for a GM to change gender, gender could be changed via database edits but its pretty extreme a case so it's not something we'll be offering. The /gofemale mechanic was created when female avatars were implemented (no girls on wurm before then!) and is incredibly outdated and is an obsolete mechanic. Does the ability to do so have merit? Yes. Could it be implemented at a later date? Sure. Is there a way to have it done now? No.
  30. 1 point
    I think it's fine the way it is. You can literally improve the quality of the veggie about 11 levels by chopping it. If your cooking skill is too low, panfill 6k breakfasts and done.
  31. 1 point
    people seriously quit over vegetables?
  32. 1 point
    And I quoted him because he changes posts and it doesn't show they were edited.
  33. 1 point
    The issue is that it was tied to farming before and now it's not. But whatever. I didn't expect you to answer in any other way.
  34. 1 point
    Saw a rare saddle with woa96 go for 12s on auction, and just the shoes themself have I been offered 24s for. To behonest I think 30s is a fair price. If it dont sell, I'll sell the shoes for 24s to the guy that offered me that, and the saddle I will easily get 12-14s for... Thx for your thoughts anyway, we'll see how it goes
  35. 1 point
    I am pretty much grasping at straws now, but try going to STEAM LIBRARY, right-click WURM select PROPERTIES then check these: Under GENERAL make sure SET LAUNCH OPTIONS is blank (in case you had some java parameters there before that were saved through multiple reinstalls) Under LOCAL FILES click BROWSE LOCAL FILES and make sure it is looking in the right location for wurm Under LOCAL FILES BROWSE check RUNTIME/BIN and make sure javaw and javaws are in there, my steam-wurm-java files have file dates of 2/07/2017 though I am not sure if that means everyone else does too I assume VERIFY INTEGRITY OF GAME FILES was tried but if not click that too (even though you reinstalled it 97 times) if you have a WURM SHORTCUT on desktop, see if rightclicking mentions any options about launching with nvidia I am assuming that reformatting the hard drive had nothing to do with wurm not working and that it ran great till after reinstalling the OS
  36. 1 point
    [03:50:22] The items silently disappear from the spirit cottage. You expect them to arrive in less than ten minutes. Sent you a bit better coc tooth at same price ;-) Thanks again for business Oats and happy wurming! :-) *purrrrrr*
  37. 1 point
    im actually gonna whip out my rare rake and show it
  38. 1 point
    Sorry to see you go, should throw up an auction.
  39. 1 point
    I would reinstall steam.... may be the OS does not have the registry info to start up the game properly. Just make sure you use the same install path you used previously. D:/games/steam/common/ Just in case you dont just copy the steamapps folder from the old directy to the new. And then reverify your games via steam.
  40. 1 point
    since MINECRAFT started working after adding the laptop graphic drivers, I want to rule out whether WURM would have worked but something else was changed (java path etc) wurm and minecraft tend to have a lotr in common so i was disappointed it did not fix both ....
  41. 1 point
    I ninja edited again, I will try to stop doing that you are too quick for me lol I am curoious now about any changes to laucnhConfig
  42. 1 point
    will it run WURM ONLINE (you can make a free character) try running this file: http://www.wurmonline.com/client/wurmclient.jnlp
  43. 1 point
    ok did it say you had incorrect hardware? or any type of explanation
  44. 1 point
    if Minecraft also does not work, that suggests java or OpenGL as the two games are very aloke in how they use both. Steam usually keeps wurm's java updated so usually you don;t need to worry about that part for WU, so my guess is that the current drivers are generic microsoft drivers with poor openGL support Do you know what graphics adapter you have? I am going to guess intel but let me know if it is Nvidia/Geforce, ATI/Radeon, or a laptop with switchable graphics (intel for power saving and nvidia/radeon for gaming). If you have laptop with switchable graphics, go to the graphics control panel, 3D settings/Global, and tell it to always use the high performance gaming card, usually it looks something like this If you have Intel graphics only, try this Feb 2017 driver for all intel/all windows: https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/26563/Graphics-Intel-Graphics-Driver-for-Windows-15-45-?v=t For Nvidia only, go here: http://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx ATI/AMD/RADEOn only go here: http://support.amd.com/en-us/download Do NOT use Windows Update as it will tell you you have the best driver possible even if it is an old generic microsoft one that only supports DirectX. It just looks for official windows drivers and rarely updates them once it finds a stable versin for DirectX games. Some intel also have issues with certain settings, if you have intel-only then try these settings for now, if the crashing stops we can wor on making it a little prettier afterwards
  45. 1 point
    Maybe just let us discard keys. Then people who need to make copies can do so, and the rest of us can quickly get rid of them.
  46. 1 point
    There are 2 games: Wurm Online - You play on "official" servers. It's free, but without paying a sub you are limited to 20 points in every skill (which makes you more or less useless). Wurm Unlimited - You have to buy the game on steam. You play on player-hosted servers. There is no subscription (unless the server you play on requires one, but most/all big servers don't). This section is for Wurm Unlimited, where modification of both the client and the server are allowed and the players control everything. If you play Wurm Online - any kind of modification is against the rules and will lead to a permanent ban from the game (read the TOS).
  47. 1 point
    New deed nearing completion
  48. 1 point
    Im just having fun... nothing serious here. New server: Banish Terrain: Volcanic Climate: Hot Wildlife: Hell creatures Size: Small (Perhaps even smaller than Cele and its cousins) An island without dirt, only rock and lava with impassable canyons and steep sides. The island itself is a creation of supervolcano that keeps bubbling in the middle. Imagine players coming with their loads of dirt or Nachos'n'Fos, with collections of sprouts to establish oasises in the barren island. Eventually this place too would be like any other server but surely it would be a bit more of a challenge to establish settlements there. (Also Hell Horses would be only available mounts in this island.) +1 list (things that dont exist but would make this place more harsh): - Dehydration increase (water bar going down faster in this server, possibly low-water causing damage as burn wounds) - Add "Banish Crystals" as a random mined item like gems which can be used in process of item bonuses. - Add "Hell Troll" which is Hell-version of normal troll to add to the list of challenging NPC mob in the island. - Add "Hell Dragon" such as red dragon which is the islands own unique that can spawn. - New tree stage; Snag. Randomly occurs on Mature tree stage and after Old and Shriveled stage. So its hard to get trees to grow big and healthy, and abandoned places turn to Snag-barren looking ones. - Grass tiles might turn to dirt tiles if not surrounded by other grass tiles. Add "Water" option to water grass tiles to prevent them turning to dirt tiles. - Wooden structures (walls) would have their decay happening even if ondeed. (promote stone structure building) - What else...?
  49. 1 point
    I remember the first days of epic. I joined Lomaner as part of a group of players known as Legion of Lomaner, a rather rowdy group made up of old pvp veterans and a few players new to pvp but willing to learn. Ok, I was the only one. Posteh loved to read my application in teamspeak as I apparently was the only one that actually applied to join their group as the rest were veterans that were invited to join. We intended to be the fighting wing of the kingdom. On day 1, we set out for the white light and then headed west to the mountain across a desert to build our village. The rest of the kingdom followed and that spot ended up becoming the first capital of Lomaner. We moved around to the other side of the mountain and began working on 1 crafting skill per person and our fighting skills while the rest of the kingdom focused almost purely on crafting. On day 2 we set out and began raiding JK and MR villages as these were the closest enemy kingdoms to us. We had a lot of success and stifled their abilities to create much of a foothold on Elevation. BL apparently was doing the same thing. JK and MR villages were getting hit sometimes several times a day. We repelled several attacks and gave Lomaner a lot of security. The crafters in the kingdom continued to focus purely on grinding their crafting skills. We saw that these crafters were trading their wares to eachother. People who had not stepped foot into battle were walking around with 50ql weapons and 50ql chain (the best gear on the server at the time) while we, the fighters and protectors of the kingdom were still fighting with 30ql equipment at best. Struggling to keep the fighters supplied, we asked for new and better equipment. They offered to sell it to us. A rift in the kingdom was formed. Finally the wemp was ripe. This meant big things for pvp. Rope for HORSES, BOWS and BOATS. However, the crafters were now handing out wemp amongst themselves. This was the straw that broke the camels back. It was apparent that the kingdom did not value the safety and security we provided so we converted BL and promptly raided them knowing that they had stockpiles of weapons and armor as well as tools and crops(cotton and wemp) since they had been so well protected that they were able to focus purely on crafting all this time. ... BL had a similar situation with a large group of their fighters leaving their capital deed. After a while our two fighter groups formed a new kingdom of fighters that worked together. This kingdom was known as The Mongol Empire. The Mongols were the most successful kingdom Epic ever had. During my time with these players, I went from a complete pvp newbie to amassing something around 500ish kills with only a hand full of deaths. This is my story. Tryfaen 'The Horse Lord' of The Mongol Empire
  50. 1 point
    Bridge Construction - COMPLETE! The bridge, North Highway Connection, (32x 29y) is now complete thanks to the fast work of the bridge crew! They were busy with the dirt ramps when I went to sleep and I woke up to a completed bridge, so the whole thing only took them about 6 - 7 hours! Great thanks to everybody offering to help and donating materials! Bridge crew : Aarontx Cerber Dano Davide Pingpong Fantastic job everybody - this will definitely save a lot of travelling time! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New bridge at 32x 29y to ease travel by bypassing the Damascus tunnel (which is not being maintained)
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