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I have liked a few of the "rager" posts in this thread, but I think this idea is ludicrous enough to warrant a post of my own, so here goes: This is the worst change so far this year. No, it doesn't top the cave-wrecking bugs of last year or the opening up of home servers to raiding back in 2009, but the fact that I think of the 2 worst decisions Rolf has ever made when I see this change tells me how bad it is. NOBODY has the time to harvest the olives needed to make the oil that will be required to fill all of the lamps in Wurm, and that doesn't even count the extraneous "I <3 Lamp" overlit deeds. I'm just talking about the lamps required to have decent vision at night on peoples deeds. Permalamps are one of the reasons I bought my first deed all those years ago, and are one of the reasons I still do almost all of my activities on deed. This change is highly counterproductive and turns a feature of the game into an annoyance. Really though, "annoyance" isn't the right word. Pain, chore, bashing my face into my keyboard, are all really more accurate, but still maybe not strong enough.

Rolf, the biggest thing that I think you are missing here is that you have created no value or interest with this change. To you, this game is a job. To us, it's a game. Years ago, you agreed that on deed lamps should not use fuel after being filled once. You have now gone back on that. By itself that's not a big deal. However, all you did with this change is take away and give nothing in return. You have taken our time (the most valuable commodity in Wurm) and given us nothing. You are entitled to make whatever changes you like. It's your game. What's the next thing that you are going to re-implement that you agreed would be removed from the game in the past? Skill decay? You could still make this work, but you're going to have to give the players something in return for all the extra problems. Extra olives ain't it. There are a few different suggestions out there for ways to make this work. Some of them might even work. Pretty much the only guarantee you will get from the current implementation is that new smiths will find it far harder to create items people want (lamps were a large part of the new-smith trade) and the world is going to get a lot darker. I just don't see the benefit to going back on your word in order to add something to the game that only makes players angry.

Rolf, the important point about street lamps that you seem to be overlooking is that they enhance the beauty of your game world by lighting up the night skys with their pleasant glow. This makes the world more appealing to new players to attract them to the game and the premium players who enjoy placing them around their deeds and at off deed locations to light the waysides. With this change to street lamps you are undoubtably diminishing this positive enhancing game effect, as people will simply not be taking the extra time to maintain off deed street lamps by refilling them with fuel. Since I presume that you want your Wurm creation to grow and thrive, I think you should spend a few moments pondering this detrimental aspect of the change and then think of what you are losing in exchange for as you put it, making oilve oil more useful and fixing things as they were once supposed to be. If street lamps were once supposed to function in this manner of rapidly using up their rightful and only fuel source of olive oil, this dosen't mean that it was a good idea in the first place justifying a reversion to that state, nor that the only way to "make olive oil more useful" is by applying it to street lamps in the manner you propose. Olive oil's main use is in cooking in the real world and it would seem to fit that bill in Wurm as well, so it would be better to look in that direction for ways to enhance its value and useability. I seriously doubt any of the people who think this change is a reasonable one with little negative effect have ever placed a street lamp in a location off their deed for the benifit of other players such as a off deed inn, a darkened pathway, inside a mine next to a forge and bin, in cave canals, next to a guard tower to mark it in the dark, ect, ect. These are things one does for the benifit of other people, which is a foreign concept to some and they would not consider spending the time doing it; however, those who do place these off deed street lamps are contributing a positive addition to your game world and thus in effect helping you out as well. If you can not see the detrimental effect of your street lamp fueling change in this respect, I really can do no more to point it out to you in a plain manner. Under your proposed change, I can and will do without the use of street lamps but your Wurm game world will be a duller place without these off deed street lamps lighting up the night skys. You made a positive option available to players who through their own time and effort could place them around the Wurm environs enhancing the game world but now you are instituting an unneeded detrimental change that will drastically reduce their use in this positive manner. Consider these consequences because they are not in the least farfetched and the shame is that it does not need to be this way. Please return all street lamps, on and off deed, to the function where they need only be filled with tar once and lit. Make the improvement that off deed street lamps will also turn on and off during the night hours. The benifit for on deed lamps is that they do not decay once planted and the decay of off deed street lamps is enough of a negative effect placed upon them. Street lamps in mines should always remain lit and never run out of fuel as well. A simple system, plant, fill, light, done. Then on to other things that will actually be an improvement to the game, as street lamps were previous to your recent change to them. =Ayes=

Personally I would prefer my inventory to save its positions so I can group and organise items respective to thier use, never have quite figured out why its so random

My idea is this: What if human corpses left for a period of time greater than their 24 hours of loot-protection, have a chance of turning into a zombie? The chance should not be very high (somewhere below the 50% mark imo) and the zombie will be aggro to everyone. So unlike standard summoned zombies, it will not have an owner. As a standard zombie, I believe it could keep the rule of only being able to live for so long (24 hours iirc) but if it finds corpses to eat (similar to pigs butchering corpses, but better) then it should be able to add 1-2 hours onto it (possibly per corpse, though it's need for food could be timed so that it won't eat enough inside the 24 hours to last another 24 and thus will eventually die) In terms of eating corpses, it should be able to butcher the corpse and then take all the meat from the corpse. As for the zombie's fighting skill, it would be unfair to give it a percentage of fs as you could end up with a zombie taking 80% of the fs of someone with 90fs The zombie, in my opinion, should take 25 fighting skill to kill (allowing non-premiums to still stand a chance but without making it into an unbelievably weak aggro) Unlike living beings, I believe the zombie should be virtually immune to bruising, because....well...it's already dead....It's gonna take a flesh wound to kill it again! Upon examining the zombie, I believe it could be noted what player it once was, for example: "You catch a look of the zombie's face and recognize it as once being *Playername*..." In terms of this being for animals instead of just humans, I feel that could cause too many issues with creatures being scattered at deed borders. So, does wurm think this is a good idea? If so, see http://wurmonline.us...ummoned-zombies to vote so we can see how popular the idea is. Feedback Zombies should have a cooldown to prevent mass-zombie spawning (Suggested by Aetherwalker) - e.g. each player can only have 1 corpse turn into a zombie per 24 hours. Chance of becoming a zombie should be directly affected by player stats (Most likely Characteristics) so that a corpse as a result of /suicide cannot become a zombie and very weak players (e.g. a team of alts planning to harrass someone with zombies) have a very very low chance of becoming zombies, whilst stronger players have higher chances of becoming a zombie (Suggested by Tinkerer) EDIT TO THE ABOVE: Players with under 24 hours in-game time should also be incapable of having zombie corpses. Special Event: Ability for all corpses to come alive at night (Zombie Apocalypse), Zombies would have immense aggro ranges (more than trolls and hell hounds by far) and whilst not being exceptionally strong, they would gather and move as groups (Zombie Hordes). (Thanks Perryn) - Could also mean that players recieve an achievement for surviving a Zombie Apocalypse. - P.S. Would be ideal to have this specifically on halloween. (Perryn Also) If a player recieves a bite from a zombie, they are infected and have a limited amount of time (e.g. 30 minutes or until the next nightfall) to apply a healing cover (or something similar, e.g. praying to your god and then attaching the healing cover, or having a priest do the same if you are not a follower). - Would mean that zombies should not bite that much, or they would have to specifically penetrate your armor. If you are killed by a zombie on the Zombie-apocalypse event, and have greater than 24 hours in-game time (for newbie's sake) then your corpse will become a zombie after a certain time (possibly 1-2, or 3-4 hours?) - Edited slightly but suggested by Mrdude

The Amish Paradise Market has officially opened, housing 24 Market Stalls. At the time of completion, the market will boast 33 Markets Stalls. It is located at 32/33x 40/41y on the 1st tier of Amish Paradise, directly South of the starter deed, Tap Dance. At this time we provide a reasonable selection of tools, armours, shields and miscellaneous items. We need the following to better serve our customers: Blacksmithing: 50ql items Carpentry: 70 & 90 skill. Fine Carpentry 50, 70 & 90 skills. Tailors 50, 70 & 90 ql. Weapon Smith: 50 or higher. We have variety of items for you to choose from and we are still looking for people to plant and regularly stock their merchants. We also offer our 99 Courier Mailbox located at the token on the 2nd tier, directly behind the market stalls. You are all invited to place a merchant free to the public! Thanks, Rudie & Kajmir

Basically same model stacked with the one on top having longer legs connecting to the bottom bed's four legs. Two poeple could sleep in same bunk bed.

Actually I'm kinda with darthryan on this one. Mining is the one activity in wurm I can still do while doing something else - like browsing forums, watching a movie, or whatever. Just needs a window focus and a couple of keypresses periodically. If I had to actually pay attention and click sparkles while staring at a wall it would be infinitely more tedious for me - even with a reward of somekind. I think it would need to be optional.. if you want to click sparkles (or whatever it may be) then there's a chance, but if you totally ignore it and just mine_forward, then that should stay the same as at present. Digging 1k of dirt isn't made any more 'fun' by having to constantly empty your inventory and shift piles around to make space for the newly dug dirt.. it just takes more concentration and interaction - however you do at least get to see your progress as you dig. That *is* missing from mining. Your only indication is to have the pile of rock shards open and watch the count grow.

You know the old carpenters joke? "Three times cut and still too short." Doesn't apply in Wurm. Or one of the biggest mysteries for me: Low quality fish are so dense that you can fit half a ton in a single pan, but good quality fish are so bloated you have trouble fitting even one in a small boat. (might have been vise versa actually. Still wouldn't make any more sense either)

'Some' enchants... We are speaking of a far too serious problem (made-into-problem) for fixing it with any enchant here. Or do you expect people with 100 lamps (which isn't even all that much for many deeds) to pay 100 silver or so per deed and per mine just to keep the lights burning? With still a stiff bit of work and still the need to make a complete olive-forest on deed (or buy and make a new deed just for that) on top of it I might add, seeing its slowburning, not ever-burning? Even if it took away a full 90% of what we are looking at now... now we are looking at roughly 12 trees and al the recurring work around it needed per lamp. Generously speaking, taking away 90% still means about a tree per lamp. Do you have 100 tiles, or double that if you have mines to light, free on your deed to plant olivetrees on just to keep up with the 100 lamps around? (Plus of course a number of extra trees for those lamps placed off-deed in your area, seeing there is little hope of ever finding a still-full tree in the wild from now on, or even a tree period seeing most olivetrees have been and are being cut down due to people hating them)? A more sane solution for the want to use olive-oil may have been to give a serious perk like olive-oil burning considerably brighter then tar to just the personal lanterns. Wouldnt have been an idiotic amount of work and space and possibly money, and would still have led to olive-oil usage becoming a lot more attractive (but... as a choice, no more). (Also an enchant on just the personal lantern to futher lower the pain would then be more acceptable I think).

ya i would agree... a very very low chance of happening.

guess it's time to scrap lamps in favor of animals that give off light. I hadn't even considered that option until others posted it but I guess it's the only chore free way to keep your stuff lit through the night now, just to bad we can't have walls/fences in mines. I'll have to get myself 10-20 hell horses then, maybe even 30 considering the size of my deeds and that I'd need to keep breeding em. This should certainly help the animal cap quite a bit if everybody does that. I must say looking at this change now it's so bad it's funny. Many areas, especially roads, will simply go dark. Wurm used to be quite beautiful at night but that will be lost and that means the first impression will be a lot worse for new players since they can't see a thing and they don't start with a lamp in their starter kit, do they? (so yeah, they can't see a thing at night and there won't be many lit lamps near them either, nice one Rolf). Travel by road will also be deadlier for them at night since they won't see enemies coming as fast. So yeah, that should certainly help reduce the growth of the game by driving away even more new players. Existing players who try to keep their deeds lit with olive oil will have a lot more chores to do now and less time to have fun, logically that's going to cost the game at least some players (probably players who'd have ended up quitting anyway, but now they do it a bit earlier due to the fun factor being reduced by an increase in chores). And then there's the players who replace their lamps with penned hell horses and other light giving animals, which certainly isn't going to help an already strained animal cap. Just imagine a deed with 10 lamps replacing it with 5 of such animals. Many deeds have more lamps, some might have less, but that's easily 2k domestic animals just for Indy. Yeah that's easily 10% of one of the animal caps going into lighting the area instead of hunting. This nerf is ingenious, did you think of it during lunch just like when you thought of making JKH open to raiding?

Aha.. ok yes I think I have your workaround working now. Though took a bit of playing around to figure out what you meant. Thanks both. For anyone else not quite understanding how to do it: in the wurm/configs/ folder, copy and rename the 'default' folder to something else - eg your character name. (do this for both or all characters) Then, in the wurm/players/{player_name}/ folders, edit the config.txt and change where it says 'default' to the name of the new folder you created (eg put your character name here instead)

How do you consider it a bugfix when this was requested by the players years ago and took some effort to get Rolf to implement? As far as I'm concerned, he's going back on an agreement with the players.

Maybe a "must have played x hours" check would prevent new players to spawn as zombie.

One way would be to base the spawn chance off one of that persons stats - eg body strength or something. So there would be a much lower chance if it were a dead noob or a froob alt, but a much higher chance if it was a more established player's unburied corpse. Perhaps also a zero chance if it was the result of a suicide. Perhaps also the chance could be affected by current season - higher chance at specific points in the wurm-year. Quite a fun idea as ideas go.

I agree and say 20% chance for it?

The title of this thread is Circumventing the Nerf. From what I've seen of how unpopular the change has been, how about the best circumvention, just revert the change! Rolf, does really it take dropping a tree on you to see you added nothing to the game and brought on a lot of hostile feelings from your playerbase over some silly lights?

In memory of Mrbloodworth' zombie spawns at Freedom Market there should be a 0.1% chance to spawn a Lich king.

This. You know the expression, lipstick on a pig...Minor tweaks here or there will not make wurm pvp have "mass appeal". A lot more is required, mainly the mechanics, animations, etc, which may not ever be possible without a fundamental overhaul. Taking away something the actual current playerbase enjoys would in the meantime just ruin it even more. The whole system may not be great, but those of us who do however like it are still a decent enough chunk of Rolf's numbers that we should be catered for. Playing around with seemingly small features could have a negative impact on the actual players, while not having a positive impact on anyone else/potential ones. I agree with what Posteh said, with one minor difference. His last paragraph is spot on - Wurm is the only game I've ever played where I actually got the shakes from things like enemies appearing, and that is partially because there is a risk of losing everything, or gaining everything if you kill a better enemy. Lots of time involved both ways, and back in the day you would travel a lot longer as well. The encounter meant something. Agreed with this and similar posts. How hard is it to understand - you're choosing you come on to wild/chaos. Your things are at risk. This is the excitement. You can't have safety and pvp when you want it. Pvp on your terms is not pvp, you may as well just pve on freedom there will be the same risk and reward. Will we ever see 150-170 people on wild again? Probably not, especially not with this weird "hybrid" server we have here. Farmsteads should not exist here, large villages should. If you're solo and feel you're being forced to put your handful of pennies into keeping a guard or two, I don't want to be too mean but you're on the wrong server. The gain vs loss of changing the game in the ways possible (with current manpower/funding) to appease a very small potential new player base is simply not great. The people who want to hermit, keep a little farm and potter around their house and now and then step out and fight someone are tiny to none, the people however who either like pvp or pve are many.

Having it handed out by NPCs like candy? LOL, has this guy after heard of TRADERS? Yeah good thing there is no NPC in the game that just gives money away without much reason.... oh... oh wait. That's exactly what a trader does, except this guy's suggestion is based on actually doing something to get that money. Cripes almighty, irony at its best right here from a Freedomer. You can easily survive and pay premium monthly with 1 trader. Not everyone can afford that 50s to do so originally, so who cares if some people are doing little mini-quests to keep themselves busy and enjoying the game? It would still be supremely less profitable than a trader, which already exist in the game. Sorry Aether but any argument you really make about it just "giving away money" is pretty much invalid with the existence of traders.

It is in the ambient options that is the trouble i want the other ambient sounds but not the fire sound. I was hoping for it to have an option of its own like footsteps but moving them to emote would work fine for me till you have more time. I mean i can live with it if it is that big of a deal. I did move the horses so my neighbor does not have to deal with them but i miss hearing the frogs and crickets at night for myself. Edit: Maybe moving the fire sounds to background buzz? Not sure what that even does and seems like a good place for fire sounds anyway.

This i would be fine with . If this change had been a year ago , it wouldn't have affected me as much . But now , i don't get much time to play and this change means i wil basically be playing in the dark with just my personal lamp as i won't have time to go round refilling / lighting them all . Also , i may not even be able to play when it is Olive season , so then i would be forced to buy oil if i wanted ot make use of an oil ( only ) barrel . My deeds are large and have a lot of lights on ( which i am still in the process of adding more so they look good ) as i like the aesthetic value they add even when i'm not working in that particular area , lit deeds look better than dark ones to me . I don't have a problem with paying an extra silver a month ( if i need to ) to pay a guard to magically keep all my deed lamps full and lit without me having get involved in it . I also don't see why it was needed to be changed back to the old "lamps go out" on deed in the first place . If it was just to make Olive Oil more used , then why not add it to cooking ( as someone suggested ) , or let us use it to treat wooden items to reduce decay ( ie wooden fences / houses / seats etc ) . Just my 2 pence anyway .

Wurms greatest mystery is how it convinced us to abandon our daily routines in exchange for Wurms many tedious and repetitive chores.

Endless fuel for lamps seems unrealistic to me, just like endless food, endless drink, endless arrows and so on. But what the direction was set for Wurm with this change? Which step will be next? May be on-deed structures and buildings will start decay? Or may be they will need construction materials for auto-repair? Or may be their quality level will decrease after auto-repair, like for undeeded ones? Or may be crops will stop growing without regular pouring of water? May be animals will get diseased without regular pen cleaning? How far Wurm will go in the direction of realism? Dishwashing? Laundry? I would like to keep Wurm a sandbox game, not a life simulator. That's why I voted "No".

There is one thing about all this that might be interesting, it will be a good indication of how active a deed is. Everyone will be able to see if certain deeds are being maintained. Personally I quite like that idea, it will let me know if a deed is active or abandoned from a distance.

I fail to see what problem this change is attempting to fix, tbh. The method we had worked just fine, was by no means game breaking, and made life generally easier. We already have enough things to do on a regular basis in Wurm Online, this is now one more menial task to do. Menial tasks create routine behavior, and routine behavior causes boredom and burnout, IMHO. Just my 2 bits.

I like this idea.

+1 to raising the olive yield This whole having to refill on deed lamps seems like a terrible idea tho. Please revert the on deed lamps to always being lit, this feature should be a bonus to those of us who actually pay for a deed. We really don't need more make-work... I'm all for advantages to lighting things with oil instead of tar, something along the lines of: Off deed lamps and lanterns stay lit 3x longer with olive oil than with tar On deed lamps filled with olive oil stay lit for as long as the deed stands On deed lamps filled with tar stay lit for 15 RL days There's seriously no way that I could possibly find the time to harvest/make enough oil to fuel my deed lamps at the current consumption rate of 3-5 RL days... I guess if this wacky oil barrel idea ABSOLUTELY has to happen, alteast give us a decent period of lighting, 15 RL days filled with tar and 45 RL days if lit with oil...

Have to add my concern - chores are simply getting too much. Another 'small fix'- but a big bite out of PLAYtime. Plus it's just not feasible that players will even manage to keep up with this 'small chore' (not enough trees to begin with). Plus the disadvantages of all canals and public roads going dark forever-after (no-one can seriously expect the players to keep those lit too next to the extra work on their own places allready). Plus the lessened appeal of the visual game overall (allready many complaints about too dark nights - just made darker again now...). Plus to top it all off, this wasn't even a bugfix, because the way it was working was intended, and fought over to get there a few years back... Time to undo this undoing of a feature I think.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dopmop55XvM