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+1 to what Tinkerer and Asciana said. Instead of suggesting new enchants that allow priests to pretty much undo the nerf, just undo the nerf entirely...

As of the recent addition of Global chats being added, in conjunction of the Alliance chat tab and internal chat channels for staff (if you're one of us), I've started to overflow on chat tabs a lot more often. What I mean with overflow is that new chats being opened after the top bar of the chat window is full is completely invisible to me until I close some other chat windows to reveal them. This is not a good thing when you're a Community Assistant and Chat Moderator. Questions that can have been asked and situations or conversations regarding an official mute/warn can be lost due to this. Missing a PM, even for regular players, is not good and really borderline unacceptable. So what I would like to suggest is that it is implemented to either start a second row of chat tabs once the first line is full, or that you get some kind of arrows on the chat bar that enables you to scroll among the conversations. The arrows should light up when an update that is off screen has occurred. Thoughts?

Wurms greatest mystery is how it convinced us to abandon our daily routines in exchange for Wurms many tedious and repetitive chores.

I have liked a few of the "rager" posts in this thread, but I think this idea is ludicrous enough to warrant a post of my own, so here goes: This is the worst change so far this year. No, it doesn't top the cave-wrecking bugs of last year or the opening up of home servers to raiding back in 2009, but the fact that I think of the 2 worst decisions Rolf has ever made when I see this change tells me how bad it is. NOBODY has the time to harvest the olives needed to make the oil that will be required to fill all of the lamps in Wurm, and that doesn't even count the extraneous "I <3 Lamp" overlit deeds. I'm just talking about the lamps required to have decent vision at night on peoples deeds. Permalamps are one of the reasons I bought my first deed all those years ago, and are one of the reasons I still do almost all of my activities on deed. This change is highly counterproductive and turns a feature of the game into an annoyance. Really though, "annoyance" isn't the right word. Pain, chore, bashing my face into my keyboard, are all really more accurate, but still maybe not strong enough.

I fail to see what problem this change is attempting to fix, tbh. The method we had worked just fine, was by no means game breaking, and made life generally easier. We already have enough things to do on a regular basis in Wurm Online, this is now one more menial task to do. Menial tasks create routine behavior, and routine behavior causes boredom and burnout, IMHO. Just my 2 bits.

I've left my remarks on the other threads too, but it is worth repeating. Forever lamps ondeed was NOT A BUG! It was a feature requested by the players a couple of years ago, and Rolf seems to have forgotten this. We knew back then that it would be a lot of work to keep enough tar or oil around to keep refilling the lamps, and Rolf agreed. Seems he has forgotten this.

Just my two-peneth: if a change to something that isn't 'breaking' the game makes the game no MORE fun for anyone and LESS fun for some people then it seems like a bad change. I can't see who will have more fun as a result of this, but some will have less fun. Personally I like my lights and I like to play 'properly' but if the lights go out then I'll just crank up the gamma at night, like people on Wild do, and try to forget how nice my deed used to look with its lights on. That's really sad, but I play the game for fun not as a job.

build a land bridge and then remove it again afterwards?

agreed

this. every time something gets nerfed, theres a suggestion that priests should be able to undo it. Why all the focus on priests? they're useful enough! either revert the godawful change, or give everyone a way of making the nerf less of a pain.

No. Stop making every nerf somehow turn round and benefit priests, again. -1

This i would be fine with . If this change had been a year ago , it wouldn't have affected me as much . But now , i don't get much time to play and this change means i wil basically be playing in the dark with just my personal lamp as i won't have time to go round refilling / lighting them all . Also , i may not even be able to play when it is Olive season , so then i would be forced to buy oil if i wanted ot make use of an oil ( only ) barrel . My deeds are large and have a lot of lights on ( which i am still in the process of adding more so they look good ) as i like the aesthetic value they add even when i'm not working in that particular area , lit deeds look better than dark ones to me . I don't have a problem with paying an extra silver a month ( if i need to ) to pay a guard to magically keep all my deed lamps full and lit without me having get involved in it . I also don't see why it was needed to be changed back to the old "lamps go out" on deed in the first place . If it was just to make Olive Oil more used , then why not add it to cooking ( as someone suggested ) , or let us use it to treat wooden items to reduce decay ( ie wooden fences / houses / seats etc ) . Just my 2 pence anyway .

After sleeping on the change for two nights...I have changed my mind... TY ROLF for saving me the coin my guards formerly costed m,e......5 silver a month.... Now lit by Hellhorse....have to farm those tiles anyhow...well placed 1x2 pen....= everlasting on deed lighting...

No, of course not. No one is forcing me to try and make my place look nice. It is however something I enjoy, and to have that taken away from me unless I either invest a ridiculous amount of time or money is stupid. Which I now, after 4+ years, suddenly am forced to do. When something gets ''''fixed'''' I always think; who benefits from this? Who was negatively impacted before the change? In this case, who was negatively affected from lamps on deed not requiring fuel? Who's gameplay got better now that people have to invest extra time into prettying up their deeds? I don't think anyone, to both statements, so of course people are annoyed. And this is not the first time something like this has happened. Change after change that don't benefit anyone and only add more daily chores make people angry, and the person getting kicked in the butt for it is the only person to blame. As long as Rolf makes these random, annoying changes without input people will be right here with the paddle to spank him. And that is apperantly needed, since an enormous forum outrage seems to be the only thing that gets through.

It changes everyday

If you want a temp solution, you can use this formula for now Cost To Create (total N/S * Total E/W)/50 = Cost e.x Deed size 5x5 = (11N/S*11E/W)/50= 2.42s to create Upkeep Cost to create/10 = Upkeep 2.42/10 = 24c (rounds up to 1s to meet min upkeep costs) Worked better for me since the calc only allowed for set values unless you did some math to get a more accurate total tile count. Enjoy, -H

To people that love this idea, i'm sorry, but this is just Rolf back to his former, lets troll wurm players again. But this time with a small money grab. So basically, we go from a standpoint where you lights are refilled automagically (and don't tell me its a bug, since i've been seeing it pegged as one of the "perks" of having a deed since i've started playing 2 years ago) to one where the same happens but you have to harvest tons of olives, you'll have to hire a guard if you didn't have one, and you'll have to build yet another object into the game just for this single purpose. So yeah, where in any sane person's mind is this an improvement? Personally i refuse to hire a guard simply to fill lamps for me, nor will ni haver find time to harvest enough oil for all my lamps (even if i do have several olives in my deed, and space to plant more), i have way above 10 lamps just in my smallest deed. My largest deed has that many lamps just along its road. So yeah, forget about playing at night. Rolf spends too much time screwing up the player base and simply downgrading the game. Sadly this is nothing new the game is full of nonsensical decisions like the meditation answers being removed from the wiki and several other "fixing what isn't broken" ideas. I seriously doubt anyone happy with this patch has any idea the work behind getting enough olive oil for that, or even have any significant ammount of lamps. But whats more shocking is that lighting is ACTUALLY broken, and has been for ages. I have a whole line of tiles in my deed that if i stand on it the whole thing goes dark. And yet they "fix" auto-refilling. Way to go Rolf, small wonder you're not a zillionare like Notch. I know that just like with meditation, most of the community is pissed at this even if most aren't vocal in the forums, but you can see enough of the larger deed holders complaining to get a good idea of what this update means.

I think he really want multi-storey and bridges in the game but it is really hard to code and instead he's taking every chance to do something else because he's stuck and unable to finish the multi-storey thing.

now you know what no pvp on chaos is like for us!

I voted no. Sandbox games are about creation. Not about maintenance. That being said, some maintenance is fine because it adds a taste of realism that we can identify with. It should not take any significant part of your time to simply maintain, because then you quickly get to the point where you can only maintain, and not create - at which point you stop playing.

I think the response in the other threads made general attitudes quite clear, and I don't see how such a polarised poll can help matters. For example I think its a good step to have templars fill lamps from a barrel, but I think it's a shame that barrel cannot be filled with tar, or some other solution as mentioned in the many threads. I also think it needs to be more though-out how mines and public tunnels etc are going to be affected by the change, and ways to deal with this. Essentially: my view is (as is often the case) rolf has rushed out something that just sprang to mind, without really considering the full implications. It's the kind of thing where if there were two or more people in the decision, one would have said "yeah it's an interesting concept, but have you thought about these 100 factors?"

Off hand I'd say to try and pressure Rolf to at least shoot straight with the community. Other then that? Give vent to the frustration in the community over the flawed design process of a game out of "beta".

Then maybe it would be better that those 'many others' ask for this pvp full of restiction on a pve or new server, instead of ruining the only full pvp server there was in the freedom cluster.

One less reason to deed an area really. Shouldn't there be more incentives to deed up rather than just live on an enclosure? Set a barrel of tar as the fuel for guards and maybe you could maybe pass it off as acceptable. Honestly are these sort of changes just used as distractions when something that is supposed to be being worked on isn't coming along well? Celebration's still waiting on a map; Chaos is still waiting on PvP and the whole world is still waiting on multi-storey (more accurately, two-storey) buildings. No to mention the recent bout of client/java crashes. You put out a cool new server and raked in a bunch of players Rolf, don't start mucking about with things that work just fine. [/rant]

I'm strongly opposed to this change as I feel this is contrary to Rolfs own desire to "reduce the grind" as seen in his blog. Rolf himself has commented on how nice wurm can look at night with a good number of lamps illuminating the landscape, yet this change is going to significantly reduce this aspect of wurm. Its going to require more effort than many will put in, and contributes nothing to enjoyment of the game. I would also like to point out that this impacts on community projects For example, Kinoss canal is 286 tiles long and contains 76 lamps, approx 65 of which are offdeed. Its unreasonable to expect players to be so community minded that they are going to fill all these lamps every few days, and im sure gms have plenty to do without spending even more time than they already do rescuing stranded ships from unlit canals. Seriously Rolf plse think again on this one.

I'll speak up against this recent change as well. Even though where I'm located is flooded with olive trees, the sheer volume of olives that would need to be harvested is beyond stupid so my lamps will sit dark as well. Manually walking around and filling them with tar every few days is also not a considered option, as I'd much rather spend that half hour to hour doing something useful.

Let's look at some actual numbers. Maybe the math will demonstrate how difficult this will make things. Rolf says that lamps will have to be refilled every 3-5 days under this system. Let's figure an average of every 4 days for a refill. The Wurm year is 45.6 days. That means 11.4 refills per Wurm year. According ot the wiki, t takes 0.20 kg of olive oil to fill a lamp, so you need 2.28 kg of oil per year per lamp. You get 0.06 kg of oil per olive. You get two harvest of olives each Wurm year, so one tree produces 0.12 kg of oil per year. This means you need 19 olive trees for every lamp you have on your deed. (That's NINETEEN.) Even if you assume that since lamps on deed are not burning 2/3 of the time because it's daylight, you're still looking at 6.3 olive trees per lamp. You will want at least 4 lamps to light up the default 11x11 deed. That's either 26 or 76 tiles of olive trees (21% or 62% of your total deeded tiles). That's a heck of a lot of wasted tiles just to have light on your deed.

Well thanks for that atazs, that's really helpful of you, not On the same day that Rolf makes these crazy changes, I found the PCAdvisor report quoting the connection and graphics issues - outside of the bubble you exist in, people are having connection issues, and when someone from a major magazine reports it in their main review, it is an issue, whether you or people you know are seeing it or not is not relevant. To me, it is utter madness to make these changes when so many other things need doing, and it seems that I am not the only one.

Fount this funny... So i left wild cause i got tired of all the pvp nerfing and just didn't feel like playing on the server anymore. I am doing some woodcutting and get talking with a local. He is a nice guy and we end up talking about wild (first freedom person that i talk to about chaos where i'm staying) some quotes: [21:58:09] <Samjj> And why would you want a persistent property on wild? because you should go on it thinking everything you own can be lost in a blink of an eye [21:59:13] <Samjj> That's why I first came to freedom, and maybe plan to go wild, at somepoint maybe [22:05:35] <Samjj> if you nerf wild, then what's the reason for freedom being there? If you don't want your stuff to dissappear, go freedom, if you want to experience exciting battles and all that jazz, join wild [22:07:07] <Samjj> I think the wurm players have somehow lost the way how Wurm is best played as... but I can understand they're way of thinking... [22:08:43] <Samjj> A game where you spend huge amounts of time, you become invested... so you don't want to lose that. But of course playing wurm can be... a little monotonous, so people grave for excitement, hence Wild [22:09:28] <Samjj> So people think these 2 things should be combined, but they really shouldn't. Thanks for letting me quote you Samjj

66 lamps on my Chaos deed, if they last 5 days, I need them refilled 6 times a month on average. With one olive producing enough oil to fill one lamp, that's almost 400 olives I need to harvest and press per month. I'm not going to fuel some "market" wasting money on buying 400 olives a month, so my lamps will just run dry since tar apparently isn't suitable or something? What's to be happy about?

So, if I am intrepreting this correctly, for street lamps to be able to be refilled automatically on deeds, the deed must have a Spirit Templar (guard) or this oil barrel auto-filling system will not work. I have no Spirit Templars (guards) on my deeds and I certainly will not be paying 1 silver per month for a guard for each of my deeds to be auto-filling my deed street lamps. Beyond that, I am not going to be harvesting and producing olive oil to fuel on deed, or even off deed street lamps anyway. Too much work, not worth the effort just for the cosmetic effect of having lit street lamps on deed. The Wurm world will be a darker and dreary place with all the perimiter and off deed street lamps running out of fuel and returning those areas to darkness. Heck who cares? No real need to waste time and in game coins anymore placing lamps in off deed mines to light them up for others use. Why be concerned about them, let the mines be bleak and forbodeing. Everyone enjoys having the aggro mobs spring out at them from the dark. If they die is not my loss as I always go in there perpaired and am familiar with the mines in my area, with their uneven destroyed floors by exciting tunneling mobs. Yes, those damaging mobs have been reverted back to their previous inability to destroy mine floors (that some here had seen as a perfectly fine ability for them to have) but the mine floor damage remains to this day. As for me, if this change goes into effect, I will be removing all my off deed public street lamp lighting at various locations in the area, next to roads, houses, guard towers and in mines, simply because it will be pointless to have them decaying away there unlit serving no useful purpose when they run out of fuel at this proposed advanced rate. This is just a common sense result of this proposed change that can be realized with little forethought. Not too hard to figure this out. I will just store them on deed somewhere. Who knows, maybe someone in the future with no memory of their past functioning system will be interested in buying them. Maybe someone will start a new deed nearby and hire a Spirit Templar for 1 silver a month and see these street lamps as useful to them. The ones planted on my deeds, I will just let remain there unlit as faint reminders of their better days. Hey, maybe if they are unlit on deed Rolf should then make them subject to decay! This might then encourage people to then hire more Spirit Templars, more coins for him. Not a bad idea huh? Oh well then I guess I would have to just pick them all up on deed too and try to sell those as well. Hey, maybe I could buy a large magical chest for 50 silver to store them in to prevent their decay. So many choices! The end is not near. I will still continue playing Wurm, although some posters may be sorry to hear, but it is quite obvious that Wurm will not be as an attractive place in the darkness of night as it has been if this needless change goes into effect. Gee, it might be best to institute changes that enhance the game, making it more enjoyable and less time consuming to play, than those such as this which will have the opposite effect. Only The Shadow knows..... =Ayes=

I considered the forever-lit street lamps to be more as an additional feature/benefit of having a deed rather than a bug.

Let's do some math. Let's say you have 10 lamps on a deed. This is not an unreasonable number to light up an 11x11 deed and perhaps a mine under it. Lamps require .125 kg of oil or tar to fill. I'm assuming that hasn't been changed, please correct me if it has. An olive gives .06kg of oil. A lamp therefore requires around 2 olives to fill completely. The ten lamps in the example would require 20 olives. Let's give this the benefit of the doubt and put the time a full lamp remains lit at 5 days. That means every month you (or the guards) would have to refill them 6 times. The example deed would therefore have to harvest 20 times 6 or 120 olives a month to keep the oil barrel full enough to fill 10 lamps. So your choices are to harvest 120 olives every month or to manually refill them. In some regions this would be incredibly difficult as there aren't many olive trees around. Either reduce the amount of oil required to fill a lamp substantially or increase the amount of time lamps remain lit. This is a large nerf to deeds after people have gotten used to the convenience of not having to refill their lamps.

What you apparently missed in my statement regarding "realism", is that complaining that one aspect of something is not "realistic" in a world setting where 100 totally unrealistic things happen all the time, just because that's how it works in real life, is pretty dumb. So what if the lamps were eternal on deed. Chalk it up to a magical effect and call it a day. Heck, have Mag priests cast Light Token on them if that makes it more "realistic" for you. There is a point where you have to set aside realism to accept a few other things. Such as 3m spiders that don't collapse under their own weight and manage to breath with book lungs at that size.

Let's remove decay prevention on deeds, as well. After all, how are the structures magically being kept in repair? The invisible groundskeepers don't have a barrel of planks or shards to take materials from. Not very realistic. Stop adding pointless complexity that does nothing but add chore.

Process raw tar. Raw tar needs processing in a " Tar Processing unit " ( new ) to be of any use. Tar processing unit ( similar to a forge but smaller and without a chimney, needs a couldron in construction ) is fueled by burning 20kg wood for cooking the raw tar into the following products From each 1kg of tar processed you get .50 tar pitch ( for ship building ), .25 carbon black oxide ( ingrediant for making ink and black paint/dye ), and .25 tar oil ( for using as lamp oil and general oil paint base. This tar oil will replace water, and water based colors will only be used as a dye for wood, leather and cloth items ). Also, mixing any dye on a 1 for 1 basis with clay makes a glaze that can be applied to clay items and fired resulting in a colored pottery item.