Update on the Reinforcements situation, spells and favour.

[amberain80 290]

Hello everyone

 

As sudden as this all was, I just wanted to grab your attention for a couple of minutes and tell you what brought this about.

 

We would love to hear your feedback on the topics here as long as you keep it constructive Wurmians.

There is a suggestions committee in the making for better handling these type of situations and getting the top suggestions addressed but also getting effective feedback going quicker between you and us.

 

Thank you for your time!

 

Here is part of the issue with this. You want to hear suggestions but clearly do not listen when ppl are talking. From what I can see the majority of players paying to play the game do NOT want this new change to go through, but you are going to change it anyway.

 

Also if a committee is gong to be formed to handle these situations, how will they be picked?  Who will they be getting suggestions from? How will we be updates as to what they are working on or what was decided?

 

And last seriously how much more are you going to give to lib priests. I mean seriously you just keep giving and not taking away, that is what causes unbalance to begin with. And instead of trying to fix it all the giving just makes it worse. BL does not have a strong disadvantage, really nobody does. At this point you should be balancing not just giving. The problem is you are not playing the game you are creating, so you don't fully understand what you are doing. 

[Gaeron 551]

If there is a possibility to remove a reinforced tile, should be something to prevent this, this is the balance. How can we prevent this, do we have any tool provided in this game?

Well you can't stop a wall being catapulted, only repair and hope you keep up. The thing is you have to be there.

 

As the spell takes about a minute to cast I would guess waiting with a shaker orb and fresh support beam at hand.

 

Shakering is immediate and reinforcing is pretty quick so they'd be back at square one unless they charge on deed under gound with a very real risk of being sealed in.

[Sharkin 1,319]

Very good update. Many players got angry simply because they had no idea what was really going on. I hope this cleared it up for them.

 

1+ Wurm Team

[RedBaron_Johan 2,853]

So for example. 

 

10 people search through the suggestions & ideas section. Gather some suggestions, discuss amongst themselves then pass the ideas onto the devs, then devs decide if it can be done or not?

There are still details to be discussed about the group but yes. There will also be emphasis on using them as the bridge between us for suggestions to changes from our side, collecting and summarizing the information we get from all players and presenting this to us in a meaningful way.

[RedBaron_Johan 2,853]

Here is part of the issue with this. You want to hear suggestions but clearly do not listen when ppl are talking. From what I can see the majority of players paying to play the game do NOT want this new change to go through, but you are going to change it anyway.

 

Also if a committee is gong to be formed to handle these situations, how will they be picked?  Who will they be getting suggestions from? How will we be updates as to what they are working on or what was decided?

 

And last seriously how much more are you going to give to lib priests. I mean seriously you just keep giving and not taking away, that is what causes unbalance to begin with. And instead of trying to fix it all the giving just makes it worse. BL does not have a strong disadvantage, really nobody does. At this point you should be balancing not just giving. The problem is you are not playing the game you are creating, so you don't fully understand what you are doing. 

There are certain changes that simply needs to get done, even if they wont be the most popular ones..

And agreed, we are still looking into the lib priests.

[Blazer 566]

Here we go again!

[Alec 729]

There are still details to be discussed about the group but yes. There will also be emphasis on using them as the bridge between us for suggestions to changes from our side, collecting and summarizing the information we get from all players and presenting this to us in a meaningful way.

 

So then I get that there will be not roll back about the ninjanerf that spark all this flamestorm, and we just have to deal with it?

 

 

If that is the case, I'm even more disappointed in all of you Wurm staff. You are really really making good publicity of the game here, pray that no website like Rock Paper Shotgun, Kotaku.. etc, gets to hear about this, and decide to make an article about bad dev decisions. Because just with the Bashur drama the would have to fill up several paragraph narrating just the start.

[RedBaron_Johan 2,853]

No, i didn't. Apparently censorship is in effect.

This thread is apparently only open to people that were benefited by the Rolf's unprofessional actions.

 

 

 

So basically IRC suggestions, but now on an official capacity.

 

This thread and forum is open for everyone to have a say, probably your post was braking the forum code of conduct?

[Thorakkanath 444]

There are still details to be discussed about the group but yes. There will also be emphasis on using them as the bridge between us for suggestions to changes from our side, collecting and summarizing the information we get from all players and presenting this to us in a meaningful way.

 

How about letting the players decide amongst themselves who will be their representatives in such a council. Naturally from all serves, religions etc., also based on the average population of the servers they are representing. This way, the council members cannot be accused that they were handpicked by wurm staff and because of this, providing biased decisions.

[RedBaron_Johan 2,853]

So then I get that there will be not roll back about the ninjanerf that spark all this flamestorm, and we just have to deal with it?

 

 

If that is the case, I'm even more disappointed in all of you Wurm staff. You are really really making good publicity of the game here, pray that no website like Rock Paper Shotgun, Kotaku.. etc, gets to hear about this, and decide to make an article about bad dev decisions. Because just with the Bashur drama the would have to fill up several paragraph narrating just the start.

Sorry you feel that way Alec, there will not be a roll back. There will be a compensation for those involved in the specific raid however.

[rosedragon 2,282]

players angry and starts devs bashing > moderators delete stuffs > players more angry > the rest are confused and start make worst assumptions. I would suggest editing the offending posts and give an edit note instead.

[fencejumper 491]

There are certain changes that simply needs to get done, even if they wont be the most popular ones..

And agreed, we are still looking into the lib priests.

Really? And giving them what used to be an exclusive spell is balancing?

[rixk 830]

First of is the direct intervention in a PVP situation where a bug was keeping the victorious party from claiming their rightful loot.

This bug has been around for quite some time at this point, to the extent where deeds are built around it and believed to be completely safe.

That has never been the intention. Especially in relation to non deeded territory which should never be untouchable.

That raid should've finished by the old rules, it doesn't matter if strongwall was intended to be impenetrable or not. You simply don't change the rules in the middle of the game (even worse, notify only one team about the change).

 

And forget the suggestion commitee... players are biased.. period.

[LordLouis 850]

 

First of is the direct intervention in a PVP situation where a bug was keeping the victorious party from claiming their rightful loot.

 

 

Rightful loot? The loot wouldn't have even been there if Sparta had not thought it would be safe, using the existing game mechanics that have been around since day 1. 

 

MR knew the mine was under there and had the raid planned for a while i'm sure, also had made a petition to get it 'fixed' for when they arrived with out anyone else but themselves knowing. 

 

So it didn't work and they call the developer over to remove a wall?

 

Is that fair? Cover it up all you like, most people can see the truth that MR are the favored ones with the developer at their beck and call. If it was the other way around i'm sure it would be a different story and i'm sure there a lot of MR deeds abusing the same 'unintended' game mechanic, 

 

I'm sure i have made a few enemies writing this, but I just wanted to say the whole thing stinks. 

[Dairuka 888]

JK and HoTS are now my similarly neglected brothers.  I'm sorry I was so rude to you before.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Dairuka

[RedBaron_Johan 2,853]

Rightful loot? The loot wouldn't have even been there if Sparta had not thought it would be safe, using the existing game mechanics that have been around since day 1. 

 

MR knew the mine was under there and had the raid planned for a while i'm sure, also had made a petition to get it 'fixed' for when they arrived with out anyone else but themselves knowing. 

 

So it didn't work and they call the developer over to remove a wall?

 

Is that fair? Cover it up all you like, most people can see the truth that MR are the favored ones with the developer at their beck and call. If it was the other way around i'm sure it would be a different story and i'm sure there a lot of MR deeds abusing the same 'unintended' game mechanic, 

 

I'm sure i have made a few enemies writing this, but I just wanted to say the whole thing stinks. 

MR is not favored, though I understand where this is coming from.

It is just chance it happened during their raid.

Though as you say, the unannounced hot fix to this bug which changed the way you need to think about safekeeping, which they should have time to adapt to, is why they are also getting compensated.

[Alec 729]

MR is not favored, though I understand where this is coming from.

It is just chance it happened during their raid.

Though as you say, the unannounced hot fix to this bug which changed the way you need to think about safekeeping, which they should have time to adapt to, is why they are also getting compensated.

 

But you are aware that everyone have the feeling that decisions takes place upon whispering something via IRC to Rolf? and that this ninjanerf was right in a raid?

 

Kinda normal that everyone not involved into it thinks that devs are biased. And if you mix that with the sudden ninjaupdates, is normal too that people starts to question the devs work ethics.

[Enzius 485]

When you say more balance is coming to BL, what is the general view? Are we seen as too powerful, too lacking in utlity, or are some combination of nerfs and buffs in mind?

[rosedragon 2,282]

It is just chance it happened during their raid.

 

 

Give me a break Johan, it is not coincident. The spell has been broken for many years, it just wasn't so deeply important because each side having use of it. Now, one side really really want something badly behind the allegedly broken mechanic. This thing prone to happen again, on influence of different kingdom(s) (like the WL problem).

 

Time to start professional staffs: weekly report, require X hours put into work, cases like this brought into weekly or biweekly meeting (IF, only IF players not supposed to know before hand), prohibition to tell players who they are (so we don't have staffs giving infos they don't know they should keep to themselves or staffs harassed by enemy players), proportional numbers of staffs from kingdom factions -- and number of servers on freedom (because kingdoms allegiance on wurm work like politic), and monetary incentives.

 

And no, I don't know how staffs run, seeing what we currently have already put me down-- it sounds like putting a sign saying grief me.

Edited March 25, 2014 by rosedragon

[Oreo 5,793]

Some IRC Logs:

[09:40:30] <Oreohh> Im currently a citizen in Sparta, yes

[09:40:40] <Oreohh> Hameleon is currently on aswell
[09:41:09] <Rolf> okay
[09:41:27] <Rolf> so you're still around sparta or did you guys move back to some other village?
[09:41:41] <Rolf> i mean the bulk of you
[09:42:01] <Oreohh> Them? I'm not sure. I joined it to use the /vteleport feature. Best to ask Hameleon this
[09:45:12] <Oreohh> But I do think that he is still logged out close/near the Sparta area at another deed.
[09:45:18] <Oreohh> as in Fsbkun
[10:08:19] <Oreohh> you think MOON METAL is enough?
[10:08:25] <Oreohh> Are you kidding me?
[10:09:06] do you think there is any sort of reimbursement i can give that is enough?
[10:09:21] <Oreohh> Yes, give them their rightful loot back that you took from them, you LITERALLY took it
[10:09:52] <Oreohh> noboby even knew the fix was in except MR, Spartans didnt even have a chance or a clue that it was even put in
[10:10:11] <Rolf> ok so now you're upset about getting reimbursement instead
[10:10:11] <Rolf> gg
[10:10:16] <Oreohh> wat
[10:10:26] <Oreohh> im sad about getting moon metal
[10:10:36] <Oreohh> Serylls does jack ######
[10:10:46] <Oreohh> and 8kgs of glimmer/ada is 4 hota wins
[10:11:09] <Oreohh> not even 99ql, they lost close to 750 euros worth of ###### to this
[10:12:22] <Rolf> ok

 

8kgs Glimmer, 8kgs Ada (aka 4 HoTA wins, not even max ql)

5kgs rare seryll and 20kgs seryll (glorified plate pretty much)

 

opposed to

 

3 drake sets(?)

3 sets of rare tools

Among other things

 

As Rolf says, 'gg'.

 

Also, more logs:

[22:01:35] <Rolf> see the cart?
[22:16:48] <Rolf> nvm sorry I understand it's pretty much nothing

Edited March 25, 2014 by Oreo

[Amadee 1,543]

But as we did not announce the change before taking action on this specific event, we feel a compensation is in place.

 

 

True it wasn't announced "publicly."  However, it was in fact announced to a select few in IRC, and that to me is the heart of the problem. Judging by the posts in the other thread, one side knew for some time, over a period of days, that the spell had been changed, yet still no one else was informed.  And then after the small handful in the know had spent quite some time trying to take advantage of that special knowledge and it wasn't working for them, Rolf goes over and helps them break into a no longer defended deed.

 

It's nice that you guys are making an attempt at damage control here, but you are still not addressing the issue I and a lot of others are wanting to see addressed. 

 

Are decisions going to continue to be made in IRC with a handful of IRC campers?  That's the one I need to know about to help me make some decisions I need to make. Is that going to continue to be the modus operendi for this game in the future as in the past?  I am frankly sick to death of seeing ninja changes getting decided in IRC, and then finding out that the chosen few of Wurm were aware of it from their IRC conversations with Rolf while the rest of us peons had to learn about it the hard way.  

 

I've seen no apologies for that issue, in fact I've seen no hint that Rolf or anyone else at Code Club sees this as a problem at all .  So please tell us, is that ok?  Is that how this game will continue to be run?

[Bittereinder 265]

Just to be clear to some, but it has always been possible to destroy reinforced tiles, but it was apparently bugged as many players on PVE and PVP found out the hard way. People apparently never reported it and through time, it was considered a feature more than a bug, despite it being game breaking. Rolf didn't interfere in the middle of combat, but 2 days after the raid had started and succesfuly ended and he didn'tcome over and broke the tile because of favoritism or created a code just to help MR, but because MR players knew it was possibly and tried, but couldn't because of a bug.

 

It is easy to state that you were not aware or the loot wouldn't have been there if they had known, yet there is other who know there was a possibility. Is it MR's fault for trying or knowing? Is it your own fault for not knowing or being misinformed? Is it the fault of some others who abused/exploited this to make game breaking things? I understand the controversy due to the few possibilities to test this. When does one get the opportunity to test this? 

 

I do agree there is a problem with communication from the devs.

[Protunia 735]

-1 Sorry you handled this all wrong and should have given ample warning before implementing such a tactic like was used.

 

Handing out goodies is not going to change the fact of what you did and how you did it and the players will remember it.

 

Your best bet would be to roll back what you did and go from there IMHO.

[rosedragon 2,282]

True it wasn't announced "publicly."  However, it was in fact announced to a select few in IRC, and that to me is the heart of the problem. Judging by the posts in the other thread, one side knew for some time, over a period of days, that the spell had been changed, yet still no one else was informed.  And then after the small handful in the know had spent quite some time trying to take advantage of that special knowledge and it wasn't working for them, Rolf goes over and helps them break into a no longer defended deed.

I possibly heard something more than this. That it is not irc, more of.. a /support being brought in the 'right time right place' sort of thing. Whose to blame, who being biased, etc.. I don't know. I know though the respond of it is an unwise decision.

 

@Oreo: I feel bad more of the unprofessional comment after your complain it is barely reach the value of items lost. 

[Jarosz 189]

1 question....

 

If it was always meant for Disintegrate to blow up Reinforced mines... Why in all this time did HoTS Not have an equivalent spell??

If Rolf's fix was intended to always work, and strive for balance in game... WHY!??!? Did the Other gods up until Rolf finally fixed it (by blowing it up himself... not sure if the fix is actually even in yet) , not have access to such a game changing spell or equivalent game mechanic?