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Moved rarity drumrolls

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-1 on the window change. Basically what this boils down to is people not having the patience to actually sit there and make rares. As it stands a lot of people don't have that patience, and so they choose to complain about others who do. Please revert this change. It was not a broken feature and should not have been "fixed". 

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Actually they can, the only thing that has changed is they must wait until the end of the action instead of at the beginning.

I don't know how things worked but from what i read they were canceling the action when it was not a rare saving the materials and time. If that was the case moving the visual/sounds till after the creation would stop them from canceling the action as it would be to late the creation would have already taken place meaning they would have to create the item. (timer - creation - trigger sound/visuals)

 

Edit: If it was not changed to trigger till after creation then it needs to be

Edited by Kegan

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So much misunderstanding in this debate about rares I simply do not know where to start :unsure:


 


First, contrary to common stereotype, as far as I know standing for an hour and cancelling all actions is not the most popular way of rare farming. Someone called us rare-farmers, sly here. I am sorry there are much clever ways of farming rares than this. Much clever – that is wasting less time, providing more profit and skill gain.


 


Second, even if someone stood there for hours cancelling the action – where is abuse here. Seriously I do not see more abuse there than when someone builds 10 forges and cooks 1k meals at the same time. This is abuse either by “unintended argument†– which is total crap – explained why here: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/94002-rare-raw-resource-to-rare-refined-item/page-2#entry949707 or by simple aesthetics, advocating different game style, jealousness thing. In the latter case I have one thing to say: play and let play…


 


For me the change is damaging in many ways.


  1. It destroys the thrill, anticipation, the suspense of the 9-12 seconds after the lights went on (not only my feeling - check here: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/94798-is-anyone-else-sad-that-drumrolls-for-imping-are-now-at-the-end-of-the-action/).
  2. It changes nothing (or even worsens the situation) on market – there will be less rares but more expensive – the thing will even out or even provide the profit.
  3. It makes things more unrealistic – rares are unique items of high quality – their production never is pure chance thing.
  4. Overloads the databases on servers as the spam creation strategy will become more popular.
  5. Does not address real problems of the system – 100% rare creation chance, to low chances on imping and attaching.
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Someone called us rare-farmers, sly here. I am sorry there are much clever ways of farming rares than this. Much clever – that is wasting less time, providing more profit and skill gain.

 

 

 

Interesting.......

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Honestly I have no reason to dislike this change, all it means is that my fountain full of rares will be worth even more when I decide to sell them. Now I can get double, maybe even triple price for them. But is THAT really fair? It was perfectly fair before, NOW that you have made this change and ONLY AFTER making the change is the playing field unlevelled. Also, can someone remind me again of why we even still have the visual? It's completely pointless if it only occurs after the action is finished, just remove it entirely if this bullcrap is staying.


 


There are many other methods of creating rares, and regardless it won't stop me from doing what I do. But this change is not in the best interest for the economy and for newer players. Only creating a bigger difference between the Have's and the Have-Not's, and adding more Pay 2 Win.


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Thanks for the update guys, some welcome changes, and I love the drumroll change, goodbye abuse!


*happy*


 


 




Sad no change to tower guards....


 


At least you did read some suggestions!!




Kane, this is the news for THIS update, damn man, chill down, and give it time, they can't get to EVERYTHING everyone asked for on EVERY update. wowsers.

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Interesting.......

ignore the hot air Protunia, the change hit a nerve. I like the change, and I would like indication of a rare dissapear completely. now that is 'anticipation' on every action.

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Same as making hundreds useless items to improve them just to get skill. Only think that change now is that ppl will make hundreds useless items instead canceling.

Which is not the same at all... when using cancelling method you had to get materials for only one item, which you then could use for creation unlimited times(or until you got the rare). Now every attempt consumes the material, which means, that you have to manage the waste and gather raw materials. For spindles maybe it isn't that big problem(although going through your oak pile isn't very fun either), but for example trying to farm rare colossi it has pretty big impact.

------

+1 to that change. Trying to appeal here to the "popularity of the demand" is nonsense. Popularity doesn't necessarily mean the change is good for the game as the "voters" usually are biased and most of the times can't look farther from their own personal gains.

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Thanks for the update guys, some welcome changes, and I love the drumroll change, goodbye abuse!

*happy*

 

 

Kane, this is the news for THIS update, damn man, chill down, and give it time, they can't get to EVERYTHING everyone asked for on EVERY update. wowsers.

Well, it didn't take them long to screw the guards up, shouldn't have to wait too long to fix them again. An efficient dev team wouldn't have made that mistake in the first place, a less efficient team would have fixed it the moment they had bad feedback on it.

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Well, it didn't take them long to screw the guards up, shouldn't have to wait too long to fix them again.

Let me remind you about a recent event regarding floorboards:

One day to break it, 3 months to fix it.

Basically, don't hold your breath.

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--rares--


This all started it seems when I asked for an easier way to convert rare resources to rare tools.Then, people started talking about how you can already make tools easy (indirectly inferring to stop-start).  There where discussion in suggestions and at least one thread in town hall.


 


--Why do I sometimes get multiple rare indicators per an hour?--


"You get approximately 1 chance of 50% each hour to create a rare item." This is a direct quote from the devs when rares where introduced. Pay special attention to the word "approximately".  I bet a donut that the "one chance" is a pure random algorithm applied to each action (imp or create). So not crafting during lucky time X, its roll really lucky on an action. This would explain why some folks see multiple rare rolls in an hour. I'm being lazy and don't want to demonstrate an example probability equation that could do just this.


 


--Why do I not make more rares if i'm spamming stuff lots and frequently for many hours?--


The reason some don't experience rare rolls every hour when spamming stuff constantly in less then 20 second intervals is because of the "1 chance of 50%" part. If you had a 50% chance to make a plank how many times could you fail in a row?


 


--How did stop start work?--


Start creation action, look for rainbow/listen for drumroll, no rare indicator stop action, rare indicator present let action complete...repeat.


 


Oh, and I don't support the rare window change. The rare indicator is now useless for normal game play. It is a little more difficult to cancel at the last fraction of a second. Although, I'm pretty confident that people who have the means to play stop-start for many hours a day can instead just complete the action ever 20-30 seconds. So the change won't stop rare farming.


 


I think they should have made it easier to construct rares from rares and creating rares when imping with rares. I'm fairly certain that if you accessed the 1) chance of rare log and rare lump being converted to a rare tool, 2) tool becoming rare from imping with rare, 3) luckily just happen to be crafting during a random time...you'd see vast differences in your chance to make a rare.


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Pay special attention to the word "approximately".  I bet a donut that the "one chance" is a pure random algorithm applied to each action (imp or create). So not crafting during lucky time X, its roll really lucky on an action.

 

"Approximately" is what makes me think it's at random too, but the language of "extending a rarity window" through village bonus doesn't make sense if it's chance per action.

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I'm not sure why people are saying hellhorses were nerfed. Preventing them from doing 97 damage fire wounds is less of a nerf and more of a bugfix if you ask me. And prior to the update that broke hellhorses, I had never personally seen them do damage with their fire at all. If you're cruising around Freedom on your 45km/h hellhorse and you're complaining that the horse is useless because it can't AoE kill every mob in sight, maybe you need to reevaluate your priorities.


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"Approximately" is what makes me think it's at random too, but the language of "extending a rarity window" through village bonus doesn't make sense if it's chance per action.

seconds: 20/3600 = .00555
3 rolls per minuet, 180 rolls per hour
1/180 = .00555 per roll chance
 
seconds: 30/3600 = .00833
2 rolls per minuet, 120 rolls per hour
1/120 = .00833 per roll chance
 
50% chance that each roll succeeds
.00555 * .5 = 0.00277777777777777777777777777778
.00833 * .5 = 0.00416666666666666666666666666667
 
Ok,
Now what probability per a roll will produce an outcome where if we where to repeat the 180-roll-experiment many times we would see exactly 0 success 50% of the time? The opposite of this is also like saying seeing at least 1 roll succeeds. Binomial distribution tells me its .0038434
 

Using the .0027 and .00416 number:

20 second window produces about 500 success out of 1000 attempts. And 30 second window produces about 700/1000.

Note, all that was said was that we get an extra 10 seconds which is what's happening here. I don't have any idea if this is right but those extra 10 seconds are a big deal if this is right.

 

 
How might we code that? There is nothing here about tracking if a player has rolled for a given 20 second window.

 
pseudocode

rolls = 3 ; number of rolls per minuet.numerator = (minuets * rolls) + (ceiling-round of (second / (60/rolls))denominator = rolls * 60if random roll is < numer / denom * 0.5 then do rarity roll.
Lua code to test

rolls = 2 -- number of rolls per minuetnumerator = (math.random(0,59) * rolls) + (math.ceil(math.random(0,59)/60/rolls))denominator = rolls * 60success = numerator/denominator*0.5successCnt = 0for i=1,1000 dofor i=1,180 doroll = math.random()if roll < success thenprint('Success: '..success, 'roll: '..roll)successCnt = successCnt + 1endendendprint(successCnt)

 

Edited by joedobo
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I had my own theory that you start at 10 second rare window as new character and for each rare chance you lose 1 second of the window timer until you are down to a 0 or 1 second rare window. To get more rares you need to increase town bonus or wait to regain rare fatigue over several days.


 


Rare fatigue explains why noobs get rare drum rolls all the time while old players get none.


 


But its just a theory.


 


After the change, do you see the rare chance at the last seconds before the end of the timer or when the timer runs out completely?


 


By the way, I dont see what was so wrong with rare opportunity showing at the start of action. You still had to waste 2-3 hours not gaining any skill, it was incredibly boring, I basically had to stand down on my knees and listen to Alex Jones not to fall asleep. And the challenge was to get a supreme or fantastic item which now seems completely impossible.


 


How are you supposed to make a rare item by improving it? At high item QL your chance of success is almost nill!


Edited by Tsetse

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Hi,

 

Dear Rofl, wouldn'd you consider removing them at altogether?

They was a great feature once, in the past, before you started to swing your nerf bat upon 'em. We Fo priests rejoiced back then, and started skilling Body Control frantically, in the hope of - one day - to be able to ride such an awesome creature. When they came, they were great, most welcome, and most ppl regarded it a very good move.

Then the usual PvP whining crowd came in, just having been defeated by better PvPers, now whining for a nerf, trying to push the balance to their side.

And you heard to them. Not once, repeatedly, you nerfed 'em poor hell horses into oblivion. Shame!

On PvE, they still made good cart draggers for some time (only quite youngs :/ ), but meanwhile any bored deed ghost NPC (ST) in my way will kill them (if I don't kill him before). The HH's used to be able to help me doing this - no more it seems.

So they have basically been nerfed down to usual horses, but they still will get attacked & killed by any deed ghost.

For the love of Fo, please, reduce the riding prerequisite then (to 25 Body Control?) - as they are nothing more then a different skin of normal horses meanwhile, the high BC requirement just doesn't make any sense anymore.

Or, better, remove them altogether - it just hurts to see a once promising goal getting nerfed down and down ...

This really hurts. You put time and enthusiasm into a goal, just to see it destroyed while you're at it - not few of the long time Wurmians that I'm so badly missing left for good because of such questionable decisions!

Have fun!

 

Hellhorses are a lot faster and always do full speed.

They are not different skinned regular horses, lmao.

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seconds: 20/3600 = .00555
3 rolls per minuet, 180 rolls per hour
1/180 = .00555 per roll chance
 
seconds: 30/3600 = .00833
2 rolls per minuet, 120 rolls per hour
1/120 = .00833 per roll chance
 
50% chance that each roll succeeds
.00555 * .5 = 0.00277777777777777777777777777778
.00833 * .5 = 0.00416666666666666666666666666667
 
Ok,
Now what probability per a roll will produce an outcome where if we where to repeat the 180-roll-experiment many times we would see exactly 0 success 50% of the time? The opposite of this is also like saying seeing at least 1 roll succeeds. Binomial distribution tells me its .0038434
 

Using the .0027 and .00416 number:

20 second window produces about 500 success out of 1000 attempts. And 30 second window produces about 700/1000.

Note, all that was said was that we get an extra 10 seconds which is what's happening here. I don't have any idea if this is right but those extra 10 seconds are a big deal if this is right.

 

 
How might we code that? There is nothing here about tracking if a player has rolled for a given 20 second window.

 
pseudocode

rolls = 3 ; number of rolls per minuet.numerator = (minuets * rolls) + (ceiling-round of (second / (60/rolls))denominator = rolls * 60if random roll is < numer / denom * 0.5 then do rarity roll.
Lua code to test

rolls = 2 -- number of rolls per minuetnumerator = (math.random(0,59) * rolls) + (math.ceil(math.random(0,59)/60/rolls))denominator = rolls * 60success = numerator/denominator*0.5successCnt = 0for i=1,1000 dofor i=1,180 doroll = math.random()if roll < success thenprint('Success: '..success, 'roll: '..roll)successCnt = successCnt + 1endendendprint(successCnt)

 

 

 

Rolls around in mathy goodness. :wub:

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Why not just make the chance of getting rare by improving a bit higher?

 

This is exactly what i thought when i saw this change. I never understood why it was 100% for creation but anyone imping can look at a rare roll and pretty much guarantee it'll fail. You already have the chance to damage items on imping and fail the roll without it being so bloody difficult to turn the item rare.

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Remove creation rares

Increase improve chance for rares

Problem solved, and makes Hot Food Cooking more useful once again.

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I don't see how the rare farming through action canceling could be seen as anything but unintended. Any player with a bit of integrity and sense would recognize a shortcut to ought-to-be random rewards as an exploit. Denying players this shortcut to rares is not unfair treatment by Rolf, it's just a shame it went on for so long people got used to it.

 

eh people will still farm them, so does the extra effort make it ok in your eyes now?

Fair point, but yes, actually. The rarity system isn't optimal, but if the indication of rare rolls are not displayed then people will actually be forced to acquire rares through hours of creation/imping which I believe was intended all along. Even if people will still "farm" rares by smacking items together for hours on end, that is still closer to what the average player will experience, and the farmers will have similar chance.

Let's just make the rare % on creation and imping more equal. Even disregarding the whole farming situation, the number of imping rares versus the number of creation rares is abysmally low. If players getting disappointed with the results of the rare rolls is an issue I'd suggest removing the indicators (swirl + drumroll) altogether.

Edited by EliasTheCrimson

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Sitting on the forge for hours daily (PAS / WS grind) - I must say the change is one of the biggest trolling done by Wurm yet.


 


Not only you don't exactly know if the roll was on the last item you imped (and without a rare) or the one you are currently imping (which will probably fail), this just add even more frustration to the whole "rare" system.


 


Increasing the chance on improving an item rare would be way nicer... maybe even more creating a "Rare creativity jauge" you will fill working on the same skill untill you have that clever idea in the design of the said item.


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Why not just have the 'swirl and drumroll' occur when a rare is actually created. This way the frustration of so many fails will be resolved and people can still get the thrill , albeit for a second, of finding that blue text next to the lucky item.


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Why not just have the 'swirl and drumroll' occur when a rare is actually created. This way the frustration of so many fails will be resolved and people can still get the thrill , albeit for a second, of finding that blue text next to the lucky item.

 

 

exactly.....as it is imping its enough to piss you off.

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Posted · Hidden by Seara, January 30, 2014 - Spam
Hidden by Seara, January 30, 2014 - Spam

Of course this while rarity farming is simply a symptom of the greater issue which is that Code club never gives any actual information towards how mechanics should work, which then leads to only a small few exploiting those mechanics for a while until code club catches up, and by then those players already made a small fortune.


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 



Wholesale Motocross Gear

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