A Few Custom Kingdom Changes

[Moonpoppy 428]

There is a serious issue with implementing new updates and not consulting the current player base. It seems the general trick of who cries loudest or hardest usually wins.

 

I thought Wurm had got over this little hump a while back but it seems like I'm wrong. My honest opinion on this and quite a few of the recent "ninja" updates is simply to stop and have a good think!

 

We all understand PvP discussions and general planned or unplanned features along with "fixes" are hard to discuss on the forums, or on IRC. This doesn't mean they should just be implemented?

 

It's really not hard to start a thread for opinions and moderate it!? Failing this I'll just join the crying club.

[Postes 5,282]

I don't know everything about the magic walls, but I will say the spell was pretty overwhelmingly strong and would cause more harm than good unintended.  The only time I seen it used it didn't do much harm, but I also don't think it really was the ideal situation to use it, so hypothetically it could do a lot more damage if planned.  

 

What I know about the magic walls was this, and you're free to correct me but obviously no one was openly going to reveal the information openly, so I have to assume:

 

- It was casted on a tile border, and created a small stone wall.

- It had a 1-4 second cast timer (?)

- It had no cooldown

- It had <400 Karma cost, so I assume around 200 karma (?)

- The magical walls blocked any movement and lasted 1 whole minute (?)

 

 

Here's the biggest issue with that - the cast timer was too short to react.  You had <4 seconds to read it in event and move out of the way.  If you wanted to stop the person, you couldn't because the shieldbash timer is 5 seconds, so it was technically impossible to stop them unless getting a hit hard enough to interrupt, but a normal swing timer is 4 seconds so even that would be difficult.  It's very difficult in the middle of combat to read, compute, and react that quickly.  It allowed anyone just to freely cast the spell continually with no cooldowns:

 

http://pastebin.com/b6yBmdh0

 

Kagrenac attempts to cast the spell 8+ times in only 30 seconds.  I assume he interrupts himself, but he successfully does 4 walls in <30 seconds total.  Equally in the video of Inventor and Judicator at HotA, walls just spring up and there's little cast time or animation, they just appear out of the blue almost.  So you have a spell with literally no cooldown, a short cast timer than can not physically be interrupted, that creates a wall that lasts I believe for an entire minute.  The disruption it causes is so strong for the low cost of only <200 karma?  I really don't see how people wouldn't say that's one of the strongest spells or abilities in the game.

 

 

 

 

But regardless of that.. it's a bad spell.  It's a bad spell honestly because as you found out Kagrenac, it does more harm unintentionally than intentionally.  By that I mean if you are on that exact tile border, or even remotely close, you can get stuck in it.  It's just like a regular small stone wall bug if you been stuck in that, typing /stuck won't get you out, and you have to relog.  That's not the point of the spell obviously, but it's a highly probable chance to happen when you're spamming walls with a short cast timer, people end up being stuck in them and bugged out.  Imagine PvPing and dying like that?  You would be very upset.  

 

The spell should really be changed to something safer that has more reliability.  I think overall the cast timer, cooldown, small karma cost were strongly overpowered, but I think the spell itself is just buggy, and it will end up causing people just to be stuck in them in larger PvP if spammed out in the manner they were being spammed.  

[platinumteef 2,201]

I don't know everything about the magic walls, but I will say the spell was pretty overwhelmingly strong and would cause more harm than good unintended.  The only time I seen it used it didn't do much harm, but I also don't think it really was the ideal situation to use it, so hypothetically it could do a lot more damage if planned.  

 

What I know about the magic walls was this, and you're free to correct me but obviously no one was openly going to reveal the information openly, so I have to assume:

 

- It was casted on a tile border, and created a small stone wall.

- It had a 1-4 second cast timer (?)

- It had no cooldown

- It had <400 Karma cost, so I assume around 200 karma (?)

- The magical walls blocked any movement and lasted 1 whole minute (?)

 

 

Here's the biggest issue with that - the cast timer was too short to react.  You had <4 seconds to read it in event and move out of the way.  If you wanted to stop the person, you couldn't because the shieldbash timer is 5 seconds, so it was technically impossible to stop them unless getting a hit hard enough to interrupt, but a normal swing timer is 4 seconds so even that would be difficult.  It's very difficult in the middle of combat to read, compute, and react that quickly.  It allowed anyone just to freely cast the spell continually with no cooldowns:

 

http://pastebin.com/b6yBmdh0

 

Kagrenac attempts to cast the spell 8+ times in only 30 seconds.  I assume he interrupts himself, but he successfully does 4 walls in <30 seconds total.  Equally in the video of Inventor and Judicator at HotA, walls just spring up and there's little cast time or animation, they just appear out of the blue almost.  So you have a spell with literally no cooldown, a short cast timer than can not physically be interrupted, that creates a wall that lasts I believe for an entire minute.  The disruption it causes is so strong for the low cost of only <200 karma?  I really don't see how people wouldn't say that's one of the strongest spells or abilities in the game.

 

 

 

 

But regardless of that.. it's a bad spell.  It's a bad spell honestly because as you found out Kagrenac, it does more harm unintentionally than intentionally.  By that I mean if you are on that exact tile border, or even remotely close, you can get stuck in it.  It's just like a regular small stone wall bug if you been stuck in that, typing /stuck won't get you out, and you have to relog.  That's not the point of the spell obviously, but it's a highly probable chance to happen when you're spamming walls with a short cast timer, people end up being stuck in them and bugged out.  Imagine PvPing and dying like that?  You would be very upset.  

 

The spell should really be changed to something safer that has more reliability.  I think overall the cast timer, cooldown, small karma cost were strongly overpowered, but I think the spell itself is just buggy, and it will end up causing people just to be stuck in them in larger PvP if spammed out in the manner they were being spammed.  

At least we know who the squeaky wheel was. 

[Postes 5,282]

Nah, but like I said there's no sense in arguing from the git-go it's always a victim card and lies, it's hard to discuss anything if people can't be honest.  

[Jock 184]

Rolf once again something good is going and you go full retard on it.. how about you let the sandbox game be a frigen sandbox? Remove these old husks of default kingdoms and let pmk(wl bl whatever) do what they will in the end you still get paid enough for your 10 million holidays a year..

[Che 250]

Nah, but like I said there's no sense in arguing from the git-go it's always a victim card and lies, it's hard to discuss anything if people can't be honest.  

oh god

 

I think I just found the most comical post in internet history

[Bart 954]

Did you have animations on?Because there is an animation bug that still exists where the wall goes into the ground before it actually should disappear, been reported but doesn't look like its been fixed yet. Its kinda silly to nerf it with no discussion, even though it had a 1s cast timer before you still had to be standing still for 3-4 seconds for the game to stop thinking you were moving while casting. This nerf makes it into a spell that is only useful at minehops/raids Not even, could only use it if people were really slow on picking up on it.  Can we start saying nerf worgs and truestrike?(not sure how you have 2 spells anyway, since the only items JK received were the tome for fireball and then the uttacha slime)

it was stated in an update that upon becoming demigod players recieve sorcerer abilities, pretty sure jk has a demigod, perhaps that would explain extra abilities

[Kagrenac 812]

The thing is, the Nerf that occurred did nothing to stop the spell from bugging people out, it just increased the cast timer to the point where the spell is worthless.

I have no issue with the increased karma cost, I have tons if karma. The issue is that the current cast timer makes the spell worthless. Making a Wall on one tile border is pointless, you need to have it on at least 2-3 for it to actually mean anything. Pillars only take 10 seconds to cast and effect at least a 5x5 area, while this spell only effects one tile border.

The reason it had such a low cost and cooldown was so it could actually be used, since it needs multiple walls to mean anything. You cant have a long cast timer, or it becomes impossible to do anything with the spell, even if you are not interupted, you need multiple walls for it to matter.

I am not denying that the spell is strong, bit if you compare it to fireball it used to take around the same amount of time and karma to produce an effect that I would call as strong. Same with karma drain that spell effectively takes someone out of a fight just like walls can.

Only you can weigh in on how effective worgs and true strike are, but I assume they are just as strong.(still not sure how you got 2 spells)

True strike has a 2 second cast timer, yet it didn't get its timer increased so people could interrupt it because noone complained about it.

The only real issue with how Walls worked before was the possibility of bugging people in them, they could easily hurt your side more than the enemy if they were misplaced, and introduced some actual strategy into PVP other than pillar placement.

[Joemog 732]

Now it just needs some thought to be used effectively buddy, I'm sure you'll work it out.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Joemog

[Gone420 609]

Only you can weigh in on how effective worgs and true strike are, but I assume they are just as strong.(still not sure how you got 2 spells)
 

nathan=warg

uttacha slime=true strike

Edited September 26, 2013 by Gone420

[Kagrenac 812]

it was stated in an update that upon becoming demigod players recieve sorcerer abilities, pretty sure jk has a demigod, perhaps that would explain extra abilities

Eh, maybe, dont remember if nathan was at the raid where jk helped defend dsc.

Rolf said something hilarious about them getting those abilities in the wurm year 2200 or something, which is like 100 rl years, so i wasn't expecting that yet

[Kagrenac 812]

Now it just needs some thought to be used effectively buddy, I'm sure you'll work it out.

Please tell me how 1 Wall can be useful in open field pvp

[Joemog 732]

I don't see the reason why your special little ability there should be insanely good in every situation, just be grateful for what you got.

[Postes 5,282]

Kag a lot of your arguement sort of just turns into, "You need nerfing too."  I mean.. I get what you're saying, but it's like you're avoiding the subject of the walls by trying to point out other spells that really don't share the same impact that magic walls do.  All 3 spells are insanely different, one is a buff, one creates an object, and one is a pet.  It's comparing apples to oranges to pineapples.  Those other 2 aren't really strong, Fireball wasn't either, and luckily it was buffed since original testing.  You don't really know if to nerf/buff something until you see it.  Let's be honest, no one is going to get an ability and say "Hey this is overpowered, nerf it off of me."

 

As I stated the problem with cast timer being so short is that it's impossible to stop, too long and you think it's pointless, so it's impossible to say which side is right because they both are technically.  But, 3 people can learn that spell, meaning if you were working together, you could wall someone in.  Yeah a single wall isn't much use, but it can make a slight difference in a fight, it could block someone, it could block a mine door if people are hopping in and out and cut some off.  I do not think it's really the most useless spell.  

 

I do agree though it's a spell that's probably not easy to balance because of the variables.  The spell timer was too fast for the duration of the walls.  4 seconds for a 1 minute wall?  That doesn't seem justified.  It should be a spell like any other where people have an equal time to react properly, not suddenly become walled in out of the blue as it were.  Overall though the biggest issue with the spell is becoming stuck in them rather than being blocked in.  

Edited September 26, 2013 by Postes

[Gone420 609]

, it could block a mine door 

 

is where i see it coming into play

infact if you're willing to spend the karma it will make people unable to minehop at all

[illvilja 1]

Soo, these weeks we have fought like wolves to keep our kingdom, KoS, alive, building like maniacs to ensure our survival, might now go into the drain due to an sudden update?

Seriously, you gonna ruin the game for us this way, i finally found my place and now you'll just take it away without considering the consequenses?

Do the paying players actually mean that little to you?

[Postes 5,282]

Just FYI to KoS guys, it's likely saying 40 to create.  You could always have a PMK of even 1 player as long as it was created with the requirement.  I don't think your kingdom will be dissolved.  

[Suntzu 644]

Can I get confirmation you are not going to disband our Kingdom of Sol?? We have been busting our butt building that kingdom and it will be a real shame if you mess it over. PvP has been getting alot better with the kingdom on Elevation and too many resources have been spent by many many people to make it successful. Is this game supposed to be 1.0 or what...

[Nosyt 200]

it could block a mine door if people are hopping in and out and cut some off.

 

 

is where i see it coming into play

infact if you're willing to spend the karma it will make people unable to minehop at all

 

No idea how this Voodoo works but we all know there are more ways to enter a mine door than the bottom tile... Wouldn't you have to cast it 4x to be effective here?

[Suntzu 644]

Postes what I am worried about is that Rolf made the minimum 15 people or the kingdom would disband. Who knows if he jacked up the creation limit only or the baseline too minimum too. We are way over the previous minimum of 15 as we have grown alot but we are not quite at 40 yet.

 

BTW we didnt found our kingdom with alts! This is a knee jerk over that chaos PMK.... I just wish the rule set wouldnt change mid game so drastically, I mean it started at 50, then down to 15 then up to 40? It is silly. Let me tell you 15 was some work just to get started!

 

If he didn't mess with the minimum limit things should be fine but you never know in this game....

[AceRifle 1,223]

Just FYI to KoS guys, it's likely saying 40 to create.  You could always have a PMK of even 1 player as long as it was created with the requirement.  I don't think your kingdom will be dissolved.

There's know a minimum requirement. If you have lower then 15 active players prem in the pmk it will disband. If Rolf uped it to 40 I'll have issue maintaining the pmk.

[Postes 5,282]

Rolf removed that I believe, Acer, after it bugged out because if people weren't logged in and 15 on, it would disband.  I don't think he ever fixed it.  

 

 

Yes, Nosyt, someone caught outside may be able to get back in, but if someone is baiting or 20+ tiles away, and someone walls up the door, backup can't get out to help.  

Edited September 26, 2013 by Postes

[Kagrenac 812]

So i can block a minedoor in around the same amount of time it would take to Wall it off normally, for a small period of time.

I dont get how i am arguing that you need nerfing too, I just asked you to look at how effective your spells are i comparison, and pointed out true strikes cast timer.

You say that 3 people that have the spell could Wall someone in. They cant, but even if they could that isnt close to the effect 3 fireballs could do, that could pretty much kill anyone hit.

Getting walled in out of the blue was pretty much impossible before this, you would have to stand still for at least 10 seconds. To cast a Wall, you pretty much have to be on the tile border yourself, so the caster would have to circle you completely, stopping and casting at each border. If you are both on foot and cant prevent that, I dont know what to tell you. I just barely managed to Wall lenny in with me vs kos, and that was because he ran ahead to fight me with his oakshell. Even then, a single bash from jaycz stopped me from casting long enough for him to also get in there with us. And this is when noone knew about the spell.

[Postes 5,282]

Getting walled in out of the blue was pretty much impossible before this,

 

 

 

 

Nope, and it's even on a video, apparently it's a 1 second cast timer too?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6XC-S8FtpAQ#t=125

 

 

Looking at that video I can't really see how anyone doesn't think that seems rather broken, it's 1 second casting of walls, he boxes him in mere seconds.  

Edited September 26, 2013 by Postes

[Kagrenac 812]

Nope, and it's even on a video, apparently it's a 1 second cast timer too?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6XC-S8FtpAQ#t=125

 

 

Looking at that video I can't really see how anyone doesn't think that seems rather broken, it's 1 second casting of walls, he boxes him in mere seconds.  

So it took him 30 seconds to cast walls on three sides, while people stayed on him and wanted to stick with him.

They could have easily backed out and not been walled in, even on foot. They choose to be walled in with him.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Kagrenac