G11/g13/g15/g19 Logitech Keyboards

[metis 51]

Actually, this gets asked every so often, I'll see if I can find any of the previous threads for you. In at least one of them, I seem to remember a GM response.

Also, if you pm the GM team on a policy question, as long as you ask first, I've never had them say no to reposting the response. But it may depend on the topic.

Your not the only one who suggested this,seems I might do that but I was hoping for an official response so that its not a he said, she said and passed on by the grape vine as it should be something clarified so that post like this one don't keep popping up.and it should be stickied and/or amended to the rules and policies .

[Hussars 511]

Which is why I specially mentioned asking them first about reposting, a pm is just another thread on the forum. You can quote it in another thread, and the original source is cited.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Hussars

[canoe sandie 32]

Opinion

I use a g13. it is far more comfortable to use than a normal keyboard when you are just pressing command keys and not typing. i sit in front of a pc for 12 to 15 hours a day so comfort is an issue.

90% of the time the only keys i'm using are the navigation keys and the space bar.

i don't see this as a breach of the rules

Macroing

Definition:

Macroing is the use of a program that automatically performs actions for you, this is a game unbalancing activity and as such is dealt with harshly

Key locking (IE weighing down a key on your keyboard) a bound key is illegal, as is any contrivance to automate game actions not intended as part of the game mechanics.

Such actions will be considered under the heading of macro's and will be penalized as such."

Punishment

First Offense: 30 day IP ban, character permanently banned.

Second Offense: Permanent account ban.

you can do an awful lot with the in game key binds.

i do almost all actions through the space bar - so no complicated out of game system is needed at all

the best trick is to bind a bind.

e.g. add these 2 lines to your autorun.txt file

bind 1 "bind space dig"

bind 2 "bind space mine_forward"

and you can remap several keys in one go with the exec.

I would question the punishment:

First Offense: 30 day IP ban, character permanently banned.

Second Offense: Permanent account ban.

I had no idea you can have more than one character on an account.

Edited January 25, 2013 by canoe sandie

[EdibleSheep 7]

I know you dont want any opinions but if people with a G## keyboard can do it then i think it's stupid that normal users cant do it. And i have a G13 laying here so i'm not saying this just because i dont have one.

[Entendu 1,197]

I have a G710+ and asked GM's about using my G keys to queue up mining actions and was given the green light. However, there are macro features that can be utilized and those are not allowed.

[Huserx 189]

....someone who is an active playing member of wurm still should see what exactly was causing these others to get banned...

I will spare you my opinion on your base question, but on the above remark you are unlikely to receive a detailed response that could be used to aid would be offenders.

A direct question like can I bind a single action to my gxx mouse / keyboard button. Might get a response. Ok that part was opinion.

[Zakerak 442]

May I use my laboratory rats to press binded keys for me? That little friendly beasts are clever. They could, for example, pray with my priest, while I'm AFK watching Star Gate ...

I think, it cannot be considered as Key locking

[Ricowan 199]

I think it's pretty simple given that keybinds and macros are different things:

Keybind = an in-game action mapped to a key or button.

Macro = a program assigned to a key or button.

Since a macro can loop, pause, test for conditions, etc, they can be used to play the game for you without additional input from you, so they are not allowed.

[shermanss 2]

The rules clearly state "Macroing is the use of a program that automatically performs actions for you". It doesn't matter what the hardware is. It could be an Arduino, Logitech keyboard, or any other electronic or mechanical device. If you use it to macro you will get banned.

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

I agree that a proper clarification is needed. I think I already know the answer, but a sticky spelling it out might be nice to have.

...any contrivance to automate game actions not intended as part of the game mechanics.

Doesn't really get simpler than that. Anything outside the game that automates actions.

[GreenHero 72]

To say one is playing dumb is to imply you know and understand others thoughts and motives..only a fool would go around telling people that. I sir am ignorant and not "playing dumb"

Sorry.

Ignorant and playing dumb.

[hoof2000 278]

i think a good example is the "call for help" in local. I think almost everyone has this bound to a key. And this is not marcoing.. Same would go for "See you Wurm". The text is generated for you after you bound that action to a specific key, but YOU still have to press that key.

[spellcast 983]

In the past the ruling we have given on this goes something like:

IF the action you are performing with the keyboard/mouse/whatever is an action in the game executed by a normal game mechanic, it is permissible.

So for instance using a mouse button or one of the G keys to execute the dig keybind action is fine.

If the keypress you are using could NOT Be duplicated on a normal keyboard without additional interaction from you, than they are NOT permitted and in violation of our rules and ToS. (for example setting up a key that will execute the dig action 4 times spaced every 15 seconds in order for you to regain stamina between actions, or setting up a single key to do activate toolbelt slot 1, improve, repair would not be wise.)

(to paraphrase from enki in the last discussion about this i can find in the GM boards)

It is ok if people are setting the G keys to take the place of normal keyboard shortcuts for bindable actions. But it must never automatically do macroed actions.

I hope this makes things a bit clearer.

Edited January 25, 2013 by spellcast
minor edits to wording and fixed a few typos

[Klaa 4,872]

Hrm so using Logitech G keys to combine keybinds is a no-no... good to know

Never did understand the confusion over using automatic macroes, especially when they allow actions to run unattended. To me that always seemed obvious.

Even situations within the game that were regular gameplay (no outside automation) and allowed for unattended leveling were viewed by the Devs as unbalanced. Using a chisel to fight a pig overnight (main Fighting gain was usage-based) while one slept for example. Heh I even recal the player whose name came up in that situation. He never did seem to learn from past actions.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Klaa

[metis 51]

In the past the ruling we have given on this goes something like:

IF the action you are performing with the keyboard/mouse/whatever is an action in the game executed by a normal game mechanic, it is permissible.

So for instance using a mouse button or one of the G keys to execute the dig keybind action is fine.

If the keypress you are using could NOT Be duplicated on a normal keyboard without additional interaction from you, than they are NOT permitted and in violation of our rules and ToS. (for example setting up a key that will execute the dig action 4 times spaced every 15 seconds in order for you to regain stamina between actions, or setting up a single key to do activate toolbelt slot 1, improve, repair would not be wise.)

(to paraphrase from enki in the last discussion about this i can find in the GM boards)

I hope this makes things a bit clearer.

Alright we have an offical GM here, Thank you for your time and answer. Might we not get this stickied or an update reference of this ruling in the rules or T.O.S. Thank you again, really that was what I was looking for.

[Zazz 325]

thanks for the input spellcast, it helped a little.

However the biggest concern out here is that most people have a G keybind set to press a dig keybind 4 times in a row (like pressing dig 4 times) not with pauses to regain stamina or in any way beating the system meaning you can do something else not at your computer since you can only cap it at your mind logic skill and you have to stop for stammina and reclick if you want to continue.

You can code so you que up actions and have spaces betwen the actions in order to have a constant loop without having to do anything, and that should be bannable. thats crystal clear, atleast in my world.

But what many fear is that they will get banned for using a keybind which is not (acording to me) exploitable as it still needs your attention at the screen.

Me for example, 95 mining, every mining action takes 2.9sec and i can que 5 actions. roughly gives me 15 seconds to complete these actions.

If i have to single click all this mining that would be the only thing in wurm i can do, no chatting,no dual clienting nothing. How fun would that be?

[Wulfgar 1,128]

If i have to single click all this mining that would be the only thing in wurm i can do, no chatting,no dual clienting nothing. How fun would that be?

You can click M 5 times and chat for 15 seconds.

You can't click G1 1 time and let it do the 5 mining actions for you.

I find that pretty clear to understand.

[spellcast 983]

Zazz:

I have 99 digging, i que up 5 digs at a time, its not really that hard to tap the 'n' key 5 times real fast, and I do so very regularly and have NO issues chatting etc while working on a dig site. (For reference, when using my good shovel, my dig timers are basically 3 3 3 4 4) and i dual client and even three client quite often, using my priests to meditate, pray, and in the case of the mag, mine.

the rule is pretty simple and straightforward, 1 action, 1 keypress, beyond that you are getting into dangerous territory.

[crutix 1]

If they rules covered things in detail like this, the rules would be bigger printed out than school textbooks. lots of the rules you have to use common sense and not to try to use loopholes to get an unfair advantage. If people are getting banned for it by the gm's there ya go, its against the rules.

Edited January 26, 2013 by crutix

[Klaa 4,872]

Aye as spellcast points out one can already queue up actions pretty fast with the existing keybinds.

Sometimes I personally will even be typing and switching focus so fast between chatting and queue'ing up actions that I'll get the two mixed. Let alone dual-clienting.

[Kegan 3,926]

You can just hold down the key for a second and it will que up as many actions as you can do so there is no need to press it a bunch of times just one long press will work. Now if you leave it mashed down then yes that is against the rules.

[spellcast 983]

hahaha klaa, the number of times i have sent 'nnnnn' to village or alliance chat over the past 5 years is hilarious, but for the most part its not that big of an issue. If i need to type out a longer reply, i just stop digging for 30 seconds, it IS just a game after all.

[Guest Malvado]

Imagine instead that a user could automate some actions as long as he was chatting or getting a small hit in % success while doing so.

That would probably reduce the need for macros.

Honestly a few of the ingame tasks are boring and incredible repetetive.

I used to macro quite a few actions back in my days, mainly mining and imping of equipment, but honestly there wasn't a single action ingame that couldn't be macroed and even " randomized" to make it look legit.

I was lucky to have the right connections and to be honest i doubt that the people behind the really good stuff will be caught since they still seem to do good ingame.

If macroing is still something that people are being caught and banned for then I'd say that there's an ingame reason for its existence ( repetetive grinding ).

Edited January 26, 2013 by Malvado

[Huserx 189]

hahaha klaa, the number of times i have sent 'nnnnn' to village or alliance chat....

lol I do this alot when driving a cart.. a lot of aaaaaaa or ddddddd.. going why the . wont this . cart turn.

[Klaa 4,872]

And then the embarassing silence when you realize why...