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Fence Enclosure Is The Deed.


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#1 yarnevk

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:10 PM

THE FENCED ENCLOSURE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A PHYSICAL FENCE IT CAN BE THE HIDDEN BOUNDARY THAT EXISTS ON DEEDS/PERIMETER NOW. I WILL REQUEST DELETIONS OF POSTS THAT ARE NOT READING THE PROPOSAL.


This thread is not for debating the merits of the defacto change that fence enclosure is now a deed without the deed management features, but rather the mechanics needed to implement this rather than it being just policy requiring GM/CA enforcements This is something I posted in another thread earlier but I want to keep the mechanics of how to do this in the suggestion forum away from the political debate for a more constructive discussion of how to do it if we are going to or have to do it.

The core idea is the fence enclosure is the deed. Rectangular deeds with perimeter expansions and buffers goes away as a concept, replaced with tiles enclosed by fence enclosures, all those problems of symmetrical deed creation/expansion and perimeter reservation in all directions simply go away. The enclosed fence tiles are the deed, and fences have none of those restrictions and can have arbitrary shapes.

There does need to be a total vertical vs. horizontal fence sections rule so that nobody can claim the entire coast line with a a 2 wide fence...this requires some thought how to do diagonal fence section . You cannot do a minimum x, y because the same fence rule needs to work for resource claims, pasture, mines, etc.

f2p players are entitled to a total limit of all their enclosures of 121 tiles including the house, this number comes from the current 11x11 minimal deed. OK maybe too generous? How about a limit of three enclosures totaling 25 tiles?

p2p players are entitiled to purchase more tiles that are fenced at the existing rate for which perimeter expansion tiles can be purchased now.

When you enclosed the loop all you got was a deed entitlement with a name, you do NOT get a token which is an optional purchase contract. p2p players are entitled to buy and place a deed token within each of their enclosures, whose purpose is to add the existing deed management features available on the existing token at the price that existing deed tiles can be purchased now.

In other words f2p players are not able to use token features, this includes bank and resurrection, they use their central spawn location for this as they do now as incentive for p2p upgrade.

All the mechanics of bad for your karma features that exist on deeds you do not own get transferred to this new concept. House/fence gates do not need to be locked to enforce these rules, same as with deeds.

There is an enforced buffer zone to another fence deeds of another writ owner of 6 tiles normal to each fence segment exterior. This is a reduction of the existing 5+5 to be 3+3 which is the minimal needed to implement a highway (2 cobbleway, 2 sandway, 2 terraform)

The deed survey for perimeter and buffer is no longer necessary, because a check is added as each fence segment is built. The only fences allowed to be closer are those the writ owner constructed.

Reinforced mine tiles become mine fences, bringing the terrain border concept into mines. They are only protected with a mine shack with a mine door, update the 3D graphics to close the gap so the ugly mine door fence is not required. Fence enclosures on terrain include mining rights underneath the enclosed tiles, nobody can mine underneath these deed tiles but that deed owner, as now. But any mining expansion beyond the terrain tiles must be paid for on a per tile basis, and mining tiles do not grant terrain rights on the surface. This does mean you can lose a mine that you do not have a surface deed for if someone else surface deeds it. This is not a big issue on rocks/cliffs which are difficult to flatten since houses are required to be flat, since fence enclosures require a legit house, and fences on rocks/cliffs are limited in slope even with max skill.

A fence that does not close a loop on a gatehouse, is just a fence and does not declare a deed, it can be bashed per the existing rules.

No fenceway may block a highway, but that does not mean a highway cannot be fenced in for it can, it just means the gates or gatehouse must remain unlocked for passage.

You can encircle another deed, but cannot block access, repairs or improvements to their deed. Only the right of passage is guaranteed in the outer deed for the inner deed., and the encircling deed owner gains no rights within the encircled enclosure other than bash walls once first wall decays and only for absent owners (flagged as such). This method can be used to salvage an absent owner deed, but not to knock a squatter down.

1x1 shacks without a fence claim nothing more than that single tile, they do not block anything as a deed can go right around them with fence encirclement.

Perimeter expansion no longer exists, if you think you want it, fence it now. The downside is that much like multi-story houses now, time, material and decay costs increase the longer the fence enclosure gets, and you are paying for every tile enclosed. You can opt to forgo the p2p token features as a way of future deed expansion, and just use the same no frills deeds that f2p get but after min tiles you are paying for them. No more free off-deed resources. Fence/reinforce it to claim it, and PAY for it. if you want to take something from another player, then conduct a real estate transaction using the trade window (needs a material deed to transfer).

An invisible fence is added that does not block access or have a gate, it just informs enter/exit of deeds, and allows passage by critters and players. This requires digging or surface mining skill using a new ditch digger tool, and a rope tool that extrudes 10 melted ores per fence segment. More valuable metals are harder to digup for underground fences that are not part of enclosures, which cannot be dugup. This is solely for visual beauty, giving the exact same invisible fence of existing deeds, which will be converted for free to a basic metal loop which can be upgraded.

Since fences are hard manual labour to construct, you can prepurchase your future deed templars not for animal enforcement but for fence construction, who use storage bin materials and a cart and have premium skills. They are too busy fence building to perform templar services before the deed is complete, they also hate manual labour and this costs you per fence section, but they will revert to their monthly retainer if you chose not to fire them when they complete the deed. You are responsible for mapping your deed fence first using a mechanic similar to continue fence, with a menu called plan fence.

Having reviewed all this I actually think premium subscriptions need to be featured with skilling past 20 since there are monthly upkeep fees for owning tiles beyond the free minimum which is another form of subscription. So if f2p wants to buy land and manage it with <20 skill, let them. It will be hard to maintain a low QL fence, so there is still incentive to go premium.

Edited by yarnevk, 17 November 2012 - 03:17 PM.


#2 Asciana

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:22 PM

edit.

Edited by Asciana, 15 November 2012 - 11:23 PM.


#3 belthize

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:24 PM

No thanks, I've had several deeds that were not fenced, no reason for fences beyond horse pens really on PvE and they're useless as a barrier on PvP.

If you want to own something deed it, if you want to fence what you own deed it and fence it. If you don't deed and merely fence in go check the rules about the risks you're taking.

#4 Keldun

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:02 AM

Sorry haven't read the entire wall of text, just wanted to say I proposed a feature, going in that direction a while ago: yards:
http://forum.wurmonl.../page__hl__yard
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#5 yarnevk

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:14 AM

On PVE servers fence enclosures (a loop around a gatehouse) are protected as much as a deed by GM rule, there are no risks for building one to claim land which is never paid for on a deed. Now GM fence enclosure rules are messy conflicts with deed rules, yet fence enclosures are not paid for as deed tiles, an accomodation for f2p taken advantage of buy p2p. With this change they will be paid for beyond min f2p freebie.

It functions exactly like deed borders do now, except that you draw the deed by running the map and selecting the deed borders and building the fence (which can be invisible fence if you do not need physical fence, and you can pay a templar to build the fence for you).

You can still have fences without a gate house for free that are not a deed if you choose, but those are not protected per PVP or PVE server rules of off-deed vs. on-deed. If you do make a fenced enclosure with a gate house, it is a deed and you will pay for each tile as if it where a deed (beyond min free for f2p) PVP and PVE rules about deeds do not change, the only thing that changes is drawing the borders with fence enclosures rather than the deed survey form with its many problems that need solving.

Edited by yarnevk, 16 November 2012 - 12:20 AM.


#6 Lolly1

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:21 AM

-1 to deed land being enclosed in a fence. hate that idea... where is the freedom? i have never closed off a deed of mine with a fence all around it and dont want to have to start doing it now.
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#7 yarnevk

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:24 AM

Sorry haven't read the entire wall of text, just wanted to say I proposed a feature, going in that direction a while ago: yards:
http://forum.wurmonl.../page__hl__yard


Please read it, the yard idea is basically now enforced by GMs nobody can mess with any house with a fenced yard now. Deed It or Lose it has been replaced by Fence it to Keep it as policy. It is still a mix of mechanics and policy, but they stated intent to implement it mechanically to unburden the GM load.

Rather than slap on a new land type this just realizes the only difference is you not get the deed token management features with your GM enforced yard, so what the proposal does is make the deed token a purchase seperate from deed tiles (with f2p getting starter deed tiles for free but no token). If all owned land is deed tiles there does not need to be a confusing mess of mechanical and policy enforcement rules for different land types and PVP vs. PVE rules.

Edited by yarnevk, 16 November 2012 - 12:37 AM.


#8 yarnevk

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:27 AM

-1 to deed land being enclosed in a fence. hate that idea... where is the freedom? i have never closed off a deed of mine with a fence all around it and dont want to have to start doing it now.


Yes you have fenced your deed as proposed here. You just did not see the fence unless you examined the tiles or crossed the border or tried to steal on a deed that is not yours. There is an invisible fence protected by game mechanics which is why the proposal includes the exact same invisible fence you have now, you do not need a visible physical fence barrier. If you walk around an hour after the survey form is up, you infact do see the invisible fence markers.

You just draw it by selecting the tile borders with this new idea, rather than being stuck with the constrained deed survey form. Do away with the underground wire build concept if that is what bothers you, but since f2p get free min deed there has to be some min time and materials involved, right now the GM requirement is build a fence around your house so I just added the invisible fence as something that is 'built' and you can even have the templars do it for you. You can build a physical fence if you want, or the underground invisible fence if you prefer that behaves same as the invisible deed border does now.

So please reread it and change your vote to +1 as the proposal does not require a physical barrier fence to have a deed as you are suggesting, the underground invisible fence is included, it just does away with defining it using the symmetric rectangle survey form.

Edited by yarnevk, 16 November 2012 - 12:40 AM.


#9 Lolly1

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:43 AM

i wont change my vote yet. Im happy with the way things are regarding this and i dont see the problem with fixing something that isnt broken... wait until after 1.0 is place. This seems too much for them to take on right now when there are still lots of fixes and additions to be made already. Something to consider perhaps.
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#10 Ruger

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:58 AM

-1. No more deeds just enclosures? Horrible idea.

I actually just went back and read this wall of text. You sir should stop. This has to be one of the worst suggestions I have seen come across this forums in awhile. I dont want fences surrounding my entire place as Im sure many PAYING customers don't either. Also what your proposing is an entire rework, not a slight rework, an ENTIRE rework of the deed/property system in this game.

Are you Royal?

Edited by Ruger, 16 November 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[22:57:41] I like my women like I like my coffee... in a plastic cup - [13:15:26] just a minute.. I need to move my keyboard so I cna bash my head agaisnt the desk!

#11 Hussars

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:14 AM

Any changes to major gameplay mechanics should be part of the 1.0. This way, we all start fresh with the same understanding of the mechanics, and they can be applied equally.

There are a lot of viable suggestions as to how to address the conflicts in the deed vs enclosure discussion and systems. Some favor one or more of them, others want no change at all. Whichever camp anyone is in, it is their choice. But the conflict needs to be resolved.

Ultimately, it will be Rolf and company's decision as to if and when it is further reviewed/changed, but I'd personally want the changes to be part of the "1.0" just so we get it resolved sooner rather than later.
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#12 yarnevk

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:21 AM

Ruger, you should read more closely because as I posted above and included in the OP, one of the 'fence' types is the underground invisible fence that is the existing deed border that we have now, it is just no longer limited to the constrained survey form rectangle.

And that is at it's essence, using the existing border tiles enclosure selection mechanic already in use for fence creation (except in mines which is a change as they have no border tiles) to replace the survey form.

It is not a rework of the deed system because every tile that is a deed is marked as being owned now you see this when you examine the tiles. This changes only how you select those tiles when you create a deed, the survey form goes away. I am just changing how that that enclosure was defined using existing in-game mechanics of fences, and adding the underground invisible fence for those who hate ugly physical fences and want the same border they have now. And if you don't want your fence to be a deed and willing to risk it, then don't OK the deed creation or don't install a gate house and the deed creation never even pops up.

If you prefer not to do the work of running around selecting the borders to define your enclosure plan yourself and acquiring the materials and building the fence, the templars can be hired for this service. They charge for material acquisition and the graph paper you need to draw the map of where you want them to install the enclosure. And that enclosure can be the underground invisible fence we have now for deed borders or a physical fence if you prefer, don't worry about obtaining the materials to install that underground fence as they will take care of it. They will do the same material acquistion and storage service for lighting fuel if you so choose for your deed as long as they are paid as they actually prefer to hunt.

These templar services are not available to f2p, they need to acquire the materials and install the fence themselves, this includes the underground wire fence if they so choose. This is already a requirement of the GMs for f2p for them to have their fence enclosure protections is they must build it. Fences are already a defacto deed sans token features, the mechanical change is already made by the dev and GMs. You will see more fences in the future because of this, which is why I added the underground wire as a 'fence' because I think physical fence borders are ugly.

Edited by yarnevk, 16 November 2012 - 01:46 AM.


#13 yarnevk

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:35 AM

Any changes to major gameplay mechanics should be part of the 1.0. This way, we all start fresh with the same understanding of the mechanics, and they can be applied equally.

Isn't this what the suggestions forum is for? That is why I repeated this content in this section of the forum because it is the right place for it. Of course this is for 1.0, what made you think I was suggesting this for a patch? They do need to resolve this for 1.0 because the influx of f2p will have the GMs functioning as property lawyers because of the messy patchy deed mechanic, the inadequate survey form of symmetric rectangle deed creation/expansion mechanic, and policy of both fences and deeds controlling land. The only reason to require a deed boundary to be rectangular is ease of conflict checks and simplicity of UI, but doing normal to boundary six away checks as you go is actually much easier to implement because there is already a lot of checks for installing fences on boundaries tiles as well as flattening code (like is there a neighbor tree, is the slope too much - much easier to do these things as local section checks). The underground invisible boundary would not suffer the restrictions of course that a physical fence has for those who want to deed cliffs or water just hire the templars to do this, but if f2p gets to have boundary fences then they need something physical to do to earn that right.

And this is worth repeating because people do not seem to read it when I write it, fence includes the underground invisible fence border we use now for the existing deed boundary. You need that to port existing deeds to the new system!

Edited by yarnevk, 16 November 2012 - 01:50 AM.


#14 Hussars

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:46 AM

I should have quote the post, but was more in response to the idea that it shouldn't be done until after 1.0.
::Disclaimer:: I do not present myself, or my opinion, in any capacity beyond the same as any other player. My opinion is my own and just that, my opinion.

#15 Protunia

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:51 AM

I know what you are saying, but you lost me at I have to fence something all the way to have a deed.

For some people this wouldn't be a problem, but for me I hate building fences all around.

Believe me I tried it once it sucked and it blocked off everything.

I build in sections when I need to have something fenced on my deeds only now.

If push came to shove I would rather go back to deed it or lose and the old AoC as perimeter.

Edited by Protunia, 16 November 2012 - 02:16 AM.

GET TO WORK!!


#16 yarnevk

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:27 AM

OK let me use the house analogy for better understanding.

You know the house calculators where you select the gridded shape of your house, and it then calculates the wall and floor skill and materials cost to have the house? Then before you build the house you get a frame to finalize and make sure you want the walls where you want them by selecting the house tiles that you want? Then when you actually build the house you realize you can actually choose something other than a wall that is invisible and people can pass thru thanks to the new archway 'wall' yet your stuff on the floor out in the open does not actually decay because it is actually in the house?

Imagine the templar handing you a survey form (if you are p2p) that works like that. But if you are f2p you have to manually select the borders building a fenced house before you create your deed, as the templars refuse to work for cheapskates. It just so happens that like the invisible wall of the house, one of the boundaries you can choose for your deed happens to be the invisible fence. Deed is just redefined as tiles within a fence enclosure, but stripped for f2p of the option to have token enhancements. And fence is redefined as including the invisible deed border option, and adding the option to create a deed whenever the game detects that you have made a legal fence enclosure.

Exactly the same result as the f2p/p2p fenced enclosure rule the GMs are enforcing now, just done with in-game mechanics to draw your irregular deed outline in game as if it where (or is) a fence. Exactly the same result as p2p buying a deed now, except you buy the token/templar features as unbundled options. When people go into an archway f2p shack with this invisible boundary fence, it would give you the same you have entered/exited message as a deed because it is a deed even though there are no physical boundaries to block you, and you can examine their tiles to find out their deed name, but you can't steal their stuff or bash their invisible walls/fences. And if they chose visible walls/fences with locks, will then you can't get in but the message is on the walls/fences whose place it is. If you do not see this message then you know somewhere the fence or wall has decayed , there is no ownership or never was a deed, and you are free to bash and loot.

tl;dr
So basically think as deeds as being built like houses, selecting the tiles you want and thus defining the outer boundary , it is just easier to select the outer boundary to define the deed tiles you want. Blocking access to those deed tiles with physical boundaries is a choice, just like it is with a house. And f2p gets min deed size for free as long as they build the deed, without the deed token features as those cost money, but they have the same land ownership of those things within their boundary.

Edited by yarnevk, 16 November 2012 - 02:49 AM.


#17 Lolly1

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:29 AM

the more you say the more im confused :huh:

Edited by Lolly1, 16 November 2012 - 03:31 AM.

no comment

#18 yarnevk

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:06 PM

What could be simpler to say than a deed is made like a house? A house you select the tiles and build the walls. A deed you select the tiles and build the boundary. Do away with the survey form and add invisible boundary option to fence construction. Completion of fence enclosure creates a deed (optionally). p2p hire the templars to do it for them, f2p have to work it themselves. p2p gets deed token management features, f2p does not.

If a fence is invisible then it is exactly the same as the deed boundary that exists now, it does not have to be a physical fence. How is it possible people are struggling with this concept when it already exists in game? Examine tiles near and in a deed, and walk around and look at your events tab. There is an invisible boundary around the deed, and the game know when you pass it and changes the rules about what you can and cannot do depending on who you are.

Edited by yarnevk, 16 November 2012 - 02:10 PM.


#19 joedobo

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:13 PM

It seems their would be a lot of new coding to make this work. I think a simpler solution is to give away free small deeds (maybe a 5x5, 25 total tiles) and get rid of enclosure rules.

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#20 yarnevk

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:45 PM

The mechanics are already there for doing this, because it uses existing fence construction mechanics, only adding the 'invisible' fence to the list, and adding a mechanical check when a legal fence enclosure is made to pop up the deed form. This is mechanic f2p use already to build a legal fence enclosure, there just is missing the last step of notifying them they have made a legal fence enclosure, which is currently defined only by policy. But that is no more difficult than being able to detect that your house is completed which it does already, so just the fence is completed and connects to the house check needs added, then popping up the deed naming if you pass the complete check.

Don't underestimate the developers coding skills, a major change in policy (with a position that it was 'always' that way and any possibilities otherwise are bug exploits) regarding expanding perimeter over buildings was code changed during a simple irc conversation about the issue, and silently patch released.

If that policy of a fence is land ownership had already been implemented as code then all of these issues of free fence enclosures vs. deeds would go away because a fence enclosure would be a deed and there is no us vs. them and this vs. that arguments to have because land ownership would solely be covered by deed rules only. All those problems of so and so is blocking me with a 1x1 shack grid go away, just run your boundary around them. A lot of the property conflicts are caused by the limited deed/perimeter shape, so giving free 5x5's away would just worsen the problem, and does nothing about the free-loading land barons that can out-fence anybody to 'claim' land, fences that are so strong that they do not need any enclosure rule protection!

Tiles are already flagged as to what type of land control they are, the issue is how those tiles get marked by the survey form which which is constrained in its capabilities. Instead of saying x by y plus ring offset from token to define a deed you mark each tile. And that code is no more difficult than existing code for tile/border marking during terraforming with tools or spells.

The main new feature would be a new survey form based on a grid to select tiles and borders, rather than giving NS, EW and perimeter ring dimensions. It would still work the same as far as popping up the invisible markers showing the survey on the actual terrain. Skip the physical fence construction by templars code if too much work, make players do it if they want a real fence. And skip the new deed editor form to start with as well, just use the old one and tell players if they want a more flexible deed to build a enclosure as the deed editor is not done yet, which f2p have to do anyways as they do not get to use the survey form.

That is why I say the survey form is a templar service you would pay extra for since you will be able to accomplish the same end result yourself without using it doing exactly the same thing the new player does, go out and build it. In the tile border code where it says you can't build here for whatever reason, you add the check for someone elses boundary is too close (six tiles normal to the boundary tile you are working on).

Edited by yarnevk, 17 November 2012 - 12:04 AM.