salvaging boats, the loophole in the rules.

[Libertha 145]

To Start off i will quote the boat and salvaging rules here:

First read the boat rules ; http://wurmonline.com/forum/index.php?topic=10.0

For all  previous cases of boat loss prior to the new rules.

Owners may now post a lost notice of their vessel, and reclaim it back under the new rules.

Salvagers should now report any vessels that they previously " salvaged". In doing so they avoid any stigma or penalty for not doing so.

GM will determine any issues concerning these prior cases on a case by case basis , leaning on solution rather then penalty.

Ensure that when you post you give sufficient data of the vessel, area of loss and who to contact.

To make it easier for people to look up a boat, in the the subject header, use the boats name first, followed by the owners name in brackets, then any relative discription.

[spellcast 983]

if this is the case i dealt with this morning, and it sounds like it is... you are missing a very important piece of information.

the person who lost the boat posted a missing boat notice.  that starts the salvage process from the other side, and a salvage notice is not neccesary.

the salvager and the owner are allready in communication, the reason for the salvage notice has been fulfilled.

A and B are not totally seperate points, they can be read as a single sentance and it applies from the player side as well as the salvage side.

I bolded the parts of the points that apply in this particular case.

A/ When a boat goes missing or is salvaged, the player or salvager posts a "Missing/Recovered boat " forum notice on "Vessel salvage/missing" forum ; http://wurmonline.com/forum/index.php?board=63.0  with the name and details, contacts etc. B/ Salvager and owner then can negotiate a return. If negotiation is in dispute the default fees below will apply.

[Kadore 926]

So the best course of action is to recover your boat by any means necessary as fast as possible before a Salvage post is made?

The gray area seems to be be how the Salvage rules and the FCC over lap , if my boat is taken and I remove a mine door or fence to recover my boat prior to it being listed as Salvage and do not restore the fence I am guilty of griefing by the FCC guidelines.

[Libertha 145]

The case in question is just an example, and what you stated is right, however its not just on that topic, its to show the flaws in the salvage rules.

to add something more:

Owners may pursue recovery of their missing vessel by any lawful means necessary, provided there isnt a salvage claim posted. Physicaly interfering with such recovery is illegal and will be considered under griefing rules

[spellcast 983]

sure, if they can find the boat, and they can get to the boat, they are allowd to recover the boat. if its hidden away then they have to find it first.

theres no loophole or flaw there.  the salvager has taken the time to secure the boat better than the original owner bothered to.

[Libertha 145]

Physicaly interfering with such recovery is illegal and will be considered under griefing rules

[Mystecore 0]

Frankly, the problem with boats is the one's sitting locked & moored for 6months+, not unmoored one's lying around.

This whole salvage thing should be dropped, it wastes the player's time and the GM's time. Any stealing of boats should just be that, theft, and liable under the FCC.

Allow boats to log off with their owner like pets do instead (the boat an owner is on) and increase decay on them after they haven't been used for say 3months. This should to help remove cases where an owner goes inactive for months on end.

[Pingpong 1,070]

Sounds good. Right now the salvage/theft of boats is ballooning in a dangerous way. I also agree that old boats need higher decay. Or some sort of rule that states that if dmg is about 50 then the boat is considered abandoned.

[sydarm 0]

the salvager has taken the time to secure the boat better than the original owner bothered to.

/agree  It is a heck of a lot easier to make a lock than it is to make even a rowboat with high skill.  Just do it or at a minimum drag it into a locked gate or something.

Some have mentioned how long it takes for old boats that are moored and locked to decay.  Considering that, if you were to actually lock and moor it you have really no concerns whatsoever.

[Kadore 926]

If I'm active , I'm the owner and its off deed, its also pretty fast for me to remove a fence to reclaim my boat, I have no issue with people securing my boat if I forgot to moor or lock it, I have an issue paying you for a service I did not ask to be done.

[Mystecore 0]

Some have mentioned how long it takes for old boats that are moored and locked to decay.  Considering that, if you were to actually lock and moor it you have really no concerns whatsoever.

[sydarm 0]

I have used your point to illustrate the value of what you consider a growing concern.

[SamWinters 0]

You've missed the point of what I said earlier. It's not people worrying about them decaying, it's about them being abandoned on potential deed sites, or just littering the server when the owner leaves the game.

[Werwolf 6]

I was under the impression that a boat had to be unlocked AND unmoored to be salvageable in the first place, not just one or the other. That's what I get from reading the rules, anyways. If the boat was unmoored, but locked, wouldn't that make it illegal to salvage, and therefore griefing?

[spellcast 983]

That's what I get from reading the rules, anyways.

[ago 470]

the negation of "locked and moored" is "unlocked OR unmoored".

[SamWinters 0]

i've had boats left near the shore by me for months and months, and then one day the owner logs back in to check out wurm, sees his/her boat is still there and takes off.  (ok some of my villagers like to repair and imp the abandoned ones for skill, but stil)

Though it'd probably be too much demand on the GM staff, I'd be more than happy with a petition (even with fee attached, maybe) to "move this thing 15 squares away" so it's at least clear of the area I'm trying to build...

[Ecrir 887]

still, looking at this part in the rules I can see the problem:

Stealing occurs when a boat is taken without salvage notice, and it is then considered as griefing.

Then search the entire rule section there for "salvage notice", it isn't mentioned anywhere else. So nowhere can you read what a salvage notice really is. When I read that I assumed a salvage notice is only when the salvager posts that he has salvaged a boat and that a missing boat notice does not fall under salvage notice. If you check the missing boats forum section, you will also see that only the posts from the salvagers stating they salvaged a boat, are named "Salvage Notice", so a lot of people seem to share this interpretation.

Under that interpretation the part I quoted pretty much means that: if you take a boat without posting a salvage notice, it's theft, and so it's griefing. That makes sense, since if your purpose is to salvage it then you'd post a notice in the hopes that the owner would see it and come pick up the boat, but if you don't post one then you're obviously stealing.

It doesn't matter if you then contact the owner later, after the owner has posted a missing boat topic, since you did not post a salvage notice so the rules declare it theft, not salvage, and it should be handled as theft/griefing and not as a case of salvage.

So since he didn't post a salvage notice, he's not a salvager but a thief and the rest of the rules don't even apply since B for example talks about Salvager and Owner, but there's no Salvager at all, there's a Thief and Owner.

If that is not the way it works then that could mean that you can steal a boat and use it for as long as you want, until the owner posts a missing boat topic. Is that one of the goals of this system? A legalized form of theft?

But from reading Spellcast's responses it seems that he considers both to be salvage notices. I can understand that in the case where the missing boat topic is posted first and after that the salvager finds the boat, there's obviously no need for a salvage notice then. But if the boat is salvaged before a missing boat topic exists then shouldn't it be considered theft if the salvager does not post a salvage notice?

Whichever of these is correct, it's obvious that "salvage notice" needs to be clearly defined in the rules, right now it's ambiguous and ambiguous is bad.

[Werwolf 6]

That's what I get from reading the rules, anyways.

you are reading the rules inccorectly then werwolf.

It is the players responsibility to ensure a boat is locked and moored if unattended.

they key word here is "and".  the word and means both, not just one or the other.

hopefully that clears it up for you.

about boats that are both locked and moored, at this time there really is no options availible for removing them, but we have discussed putting something in place in the past.  the problem is that it becomes difficult to handle as players come and go, then return.  i've had boats left near the shore by me for months and months, and then one day the owner logs back in to check out wurm, sees his/her boat is still there and takes off.  (ok some of my villagers like to repair and imp the abandoned ones for skill, but stil)

Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up Spellcast.

[Enola 53]

Wait, you can salvage boats that are locked and unmoored?

[Kadore 926]

Wait, you can salvage boats that are locked and unmoored?

Yes, locked means nothing, if unmoored and someone can drag it away, not even have the ability to embark as commander, it can be salvaged.

[Blademaime 0]

Why not make the whole thing simple. No arguments, no grey areas, no not understanding the rules, no waste of GM time

Boat has an owner (game mec in place)

find a boat > log a salavage report, if the owner does not come forward within 2 month the boat can be purchase for the default fees.

if owners turns up the boat is returned to owner.

if boat sold, the boat ownership is transfered to new owner (game mec in place)

Really what is the problem???

[Kadore 926]

Why not make the whole thing simple. No arguments, no grey areas, no not understanding the rules, no waste of GM time

Boat has an owner (game mec in place)

find a boat > log a salavage report, if the owner does not come forward within 2 month the boat can be purchase for the default fees.

if owners turns up the boat is returned to owner.

if boat sold, the boat ownership is transfered to new owner (game mec in place)

Really what is the problem???

This, remove the motivation of boat theft to only gaining the vessel after 2 months time has passed, make it a lost and found, not a way to make money stealing boats.

[Malaclypse 3]

Why not make the whole thing simple. No arguments, no grey areas, no not understanding the rules, no waste of GM time

Boat has an owner (game mec in place)

find a boat > log a salavage report, if the owner does not come forward within 2 month the boat can be purchase for the default fees.

if owners turns up the boat is returned to owner.

if boat sold, the boat ownership is transfered to new owner (game mec in place)

Really what is the problem???

Even simpler, the boat has an owner (game mec in place), if the boat is sold, ownership is transferred (game mec in place).

That's it, get rid of salvage completely.

Add an abandonment notice for boats left near deeds, and after 2 months GM's can teleport it to a parking lot somewhere with a recovery fee if the owner should he/she ever turn up.

Why was salvage ever added at all for boats?  The boat market is bad enough, without encouraging people to steal boats. And if I want to make a publicly accessible boat, so one will simply claim it anyway.

If I can salvage boats, why can't I salvage buildings, instead of waiting for them to fall down?

[Hordern 2,177]

Why not make the whole thing simple. No arguments, no grey areas, no not understanding the rules, no waste of GM time

Boat has an owner (game mec in place)

find a boat > log a salavage report, if the owner does not come forward within 2 month the boat can be purchase for the default fees.

if owners turns up the boat is returned to owner.

if boat sold, the boat ownership is transfered to new owner (game mec in place)

Really what is the problem???

Since you ask, the problem there is for those players that need to leave wurm for extended periods of time, but wish for their boat to remain safe, so they lock it and moor it. You'd end up with people sailing round the server placing salvage notices on every single boat they could see with the suggestion you made.