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JockII

A response to Enki - How soft and pointless has PvP become.

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Just now, Lisabet said:

what's stopping you from breaking into the deed and looting/draining it?

 

No one from team 2 is online. And therefore you can't have combat and therefore no pvp and therefore it's anti wild code of conduct per the last wsa? Admittedly I'm reading into this a little bit, but I'm doing the best I can with 0 info :P

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58 minutes ago, JockII said:

Me?

 

I love raising a deed to the ground. Have done for over 10 years. I expect there are few people who have organised or conducted as many raids as me.

 

Many times I have solo raised even large deeds but this is only my play style I know of many people in this game and other whom love to play spy's and espionage. 

 

Sabotage the enemy from within to win the longer war. It comes down to offering more freedom to play in more styles. 

 

Once again it all comes down to how soft and meaningless PvP has become. Nobody is used to having everyone taken and war deess constantly smashed anymore. 

 

It has become quick skirmishes at HOTA with most of the time people running when out numbered.

 

2 minutes ago, Lisabet said:

what's stopping you from breaking into the deed and looting/draining it?

 

Specifically as an enemy where you have to deal with templars, guards, etc, instead of joining them, gaining their trust and looting that way.

 

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1 minute ago, Pingpong said:

 

No one from team 2 is online. And therefore you can't have combat and therefore no pvp and therefore it's anti wild code of conduct per the last wsa? Admittedly I'm reading into this a little bit, but I'm doing the best I can with 0 info :P

 

check out my edit

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I've been on the end of metagaming like this many many many times. Hell, I had ~12g worth of items stolen off of my character by some of the scummiest people in the game, who somehow obtained the password to my character. The items were stolen from freedom, on my deed. I really hope Enki goes back, and bans the scum responsible.

 

This of course does not make me think "well they didnt do it for me, why someone else?". Its a GOOD thing enki and co are stopping this crap, as everyone on the recieving end hates it.

 

I have seen people quit the game SO many times because of this - Speedy, Emoo, Yurik (came back) to name a few. These are all HUGE names in the wurm online game. Its about time people who have metagamed, stolen illigitmately, or otherwise to be made accountable for their actions.

Edited by Redd
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2 minutes ago, Redd said:

I've been on the end of metagaming like this many many many times. Hell, I had ~12g worth of items stolen off of my character by some of the scummiest people in the game, who somehow obtained the password to my character. The items were stolen from freedom, on my deed. I really hope Enki goes back, and bans the scum responsible.

Freedom should have adequate protection against this. It is built to be a safe environment for relax play.

 

It silly how it always seems to be changed in reverse. PvP is slowly becoming safer than freedom.

Edited by JockII
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6 minutes ago, Lisabet said:

what's stopping you from breaking into the deed and looting/draining it?

 

Specifically as an enemy where you have to deal with templars, guards, etc, instead of joining them, gaining their trust and looting that way.

 

Ironically, bar the draining the token (I'll suggest fencing low upkeep deeds), this could be applied just as well to offdeed walls around a freedom deed with templars. Which would appear then that freedom is turning pvp or that chaos has become some weird freedomesq ruleset?  We bash walls all the time here on freedom, we kill guards and templars too, we raid fallen deeds and loot with the best of them. We make such wonderful enemies here! It's frightening to see, using that example, how close freedom is to wild ;) Once you start hog tying pvp, it's hard to know where wild stops and freedom server begins.

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I'm not going to play this game of sniping at my character. I stated a logical answer that simply put an external website is not the responsibility of the Devs to manage.

 

If it was a hack it would be a cyber crime. Please refrain from taking this further as I would like to keep this thread on topic.

 

Thank you for you cooperation.

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To bring round what I mentioned about the now clash of rules v in-game lore and encouragement does this not also rectify that deception is a tool. An efficient one that is encouraged by libila herself to use.

 

You are expected and required to use all effective means available: Terror, deception, torture, death, sacrifices.

 

Are you ready to join the Horde of the Summoned? Know that if you choose not to, you are against us!

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1 minute ago, JockII said:

I'm not going to play this game of sniping at my character. I stated a logical answer that simply put an external website is not the responsibility of the Devs to manage.

 

If it was a hack it would be a cyber crime. Please refrain from taking this further as I would like to keep this thread on topic.

 

Thank you for you cooperation.

 

As I already stated, I'm not having the "cybercrime" debate.  Whether or not it was an external site, Wurm items, deeds, prized possessions, an entire kingdom (MR) and years of accomplishment were endangered. 

 

You are expected and required to use all effective means available: Terror, deception, torture, death, sacrifices.

 

Once again, you're choosing to misinterpret to support your own foolish argument.

 

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This got out of hand quick. Lets get back on track guys before they close the thread. Lets just have some constructive debate and leave the personal attacks for hota local.

 

I for one could care less about the thefts. But people have put forward valuable arguments. 

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9 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

This got out of hand quick. Lets get back on track guys before they close the thread. Lets just have some constructive debate and leave the personal attacks for hota local.

 

I for one could care less about the thefts. But people have put forward valuable arguments. 

I agree.

 

My concern is not this specific act but what this intervention means for PvP. The style of play that revolves this and the freedoms of sandbox.

 

Like I have statted in my opthis and the many other things that need to be openly discussed about what is needed to being back meaningful PvP and progressive wars that would incorporate this playstyle and the many others. 

 

Without the safety net that is freedom to drag hard made goods back to a safe haven Making them unattainable. 

 

Soilidfying what many have state that they require separation in both cluster and rule sets. A side consideration I mention is the splitting of the PvP player base and code across to different variations not of play stretching a small team. What could only appear to breaking point, with quick snappy changes based on quick poll's and no long term plans.

Edited by JockII

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6 minutes ago, JockII said:

I agree.

 

My concern is not this specific act but what this intervention means for PvP. The style of play that revolves this and the freedoms of sandbox.

 

Like I have statted in my opthis and the many other things that need to be openly discussed about what is needed to being back meaningful PvP and progressive wars that would incorporate this playstyle and the many others. 

 

Without the safety net that is freedom to drag hard made goods back to a safe haven Making them unattainable. 

 

Soilidfying what many have state that they require separation in both cluster and rule sets. A side consideration I mention is the splitting of the PvP player base and code across to different variations not of play stretching a small team. What could only appear to breaking point, with quick snappy changes based on quick poll's and no long term plans.

On the alternative, we can leave things as they are, allow theft in all freedom, epic and chaos (after all there is already a mechanic in place named permissions), and just have kingdoms become more paranoid and strict with their recruitment. This will result in more alienage, less ability of new players to join existing communities, and poor quality conditions for those that do: Living in a separate, trash deed made for those who cant be trusted with trusted member ammenities. 

 

Personally I agree that theft should be allowed not just on Chaos but everywhere. The game already has the tools provided to prevent it, no GM intervention necessary. But I also know what the implications of such a system are: Victims will quit the game. New players will quit the game when they realize all doors are closed to them, and those remaining will trickle away as time passes due to people moving on. Wurm will die if nothing is done.

 

Separating the clusters will not solve this. It will only make those few who currently live on Chaos become even fewer as their casual members leave. We can't afford that.

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40 minutes ago, JockII said:

Freedom should have adequate protection against this. It is built to be a safe environment for relax play.

 

It silly how it always seems to be changed in reverse. PvP is slowly becoming safer than freedom.

This..

 

I have always fought for anti-theft rules on PvE servers. But instead of making it illegal on PvE servers, and guiding the "bad" guys to PvP servers, where it has always been possible,, they made it illegal on PvP servers.

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Just now, rixk said:

This..

 

I have always fought for anti-theft rules on PvE servers. But instead of making it illegal on PvE servers, and guiding the "bad" guys to PvP servers, where it has always been possible,, they made it illegal on PvP servers.

No, he ruled about it everywhere. It references a specific Chaos incident, but its the action thats abhorrent, not the place where it was done.

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2 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

On the alternative, we can leave things as they are, allow theft in all freedom, epic and chaos (after all there is already a mechanic in place named permissions), and just have kingdoms become more paranoid and strict with their recruitment. This will result in more alienage, less ability of new players to join existing communities, and poor quality conditions for those that do: Living in a separate, trash deed made for those who cant be trusted with trusted member ammenities. 

 

Personally I agree that theft should be allowed not just on Chaos but everywhere. The game already has the tools provided to prevent it, no GM intervention necessary. But I also know what the implications of such a system are: Victims will quit the game. New players will quit the game when they realize all doors are closed to them, and those remaining will trickle away as time passes due to people moving on. Wurm will die if nothing is done.

 

Separating the clusters will not solve this. It will only make those few who currently live on Chaos become even fewer as their casual members leave. We can't afford that.

Everyone in Wurm focuses on prevention. This is only one stage. We have tools to prevent bad things to happen.. this minimizes the risks, but it is inevitable, that theft happens. Without those prevention tools there would just be more. What the Wurm is lacking, is tools to handle the situation AFTER the inevitable has happened.

 

Like in real life, we have also tools to prevent theft - locks, security cams. Using wurm logic we would not need police. Yet theft happens and keeps police busy.

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1 minute ago, rixk said:

Everyone in Wurm focuses on prevention. This is only one stage. We have tools to prevent bad things to happen.. this minimizes the risks, but it is inevitable, that theft happens. Without those prevention tools there would just be more. What the Wurm is lacking, is tools to handle the situation AFTER the inevitable has happened.

 

Like in real life, we have also tools to prevent theft - locks, security cams. Using wurm logic we would not need police. Yet theft happens and keeps police busy.

With the situation that happened on chaos as an example and it seems to become a center point of this thread.

 

I see this simply as an extension of PvP and a risk you take on PvP servers for brining in players.

 

Personally I have seen this in eve and it is a lucrative and expect career. That game has much harsher losses than in wurm and it players on a scale wurm could only dream of.

 

The softer this game gets the less players that seem to join PvP. They have done well with updates mainly aimed at freedom.

 

They just require to separate the rule set and support a safer playstyle there and harsher meaningful PvP on chaos and epic(hopefully with a well managed merger).

 

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Yes but it happens because we trust, not because the game is broken. There is no difference between thefts in freedom and in epic. Permissions are there and the system is in place to handle thefts. We as players make an error in judgement costing us our assets.

 

This is an old argument. We cant have it both ways. We cant have the current status quo of our respective servers without GM intervention. We either give up our assets safety, our population numbers, or our enjoyment of our current playstyle. Without a GM intervening, we cant just punish those that behave in a harmful way without sacrificing our current way of play. Thats why Enki intervened. 

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just wanna say WURM =/= EVE

 

If we wanted EVE we'd be playing there

Edited by Lisabet

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2 hours ago, Wargasm said:

You are playing their game.  They have the right to intervene when they please.  If you don't like it, go play another game.

Not to worry Wargasm, people are already doing that.

 

paying-year.png

Edited by FranktheTank
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2 hours ago, Lisabet said:

One thing that makes me wonder is when people go "I was screwed over by X back in this year, and nothing was done. Why now?"

 

Why NOT now? Why is it a bad thing to put your foot down and say that it is not acceptable and will not be tolerated?

 

I'm very sorry if people in the past have had similar situations.  I wish that things could be retroactive.  BUT that doesn't mean let the crap continue into infinity because you got screwed.  I will never understand that mentality.

Because it was a life lesson, and it was only virtual items taken, so who cares! Part of the game is running into jerks, and occasionally being a jerk yourself why ruin that for a coddled baby experience?

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virtual items that sell for real money...hmm

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1 minute ago, Lisabet said:

virtual items that sell for real money...hmm

That is half the problem with the game right now, back in the day before everyone and their mother became merchants, communities shared among themselves on pvp servers less focused on the financial end of the game. At the end of the day these are all virtual items that should honestly not have a real world value.

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14 minutes ago, FranktheTank said:

That is half the problem with the game right now, back in the day before everyone and their mother became merchants, communities shared among themselves on pvp servers less focused on the financial end of the game. At the end of the day these are all virtual items that should honestly not have a real world value.

This all comes back to meaningful PvP. Back then you had champions that mattered and anyone who was one needed people and vice versa.

 

So the guy beside you needed to be geared well or you had a weak link and it all went to ######. Many times I killed people with scale and drake and gave it to people who had lost theirs etc. 

 

It all came down to having some valuable to fight over like the wl was. Not quick skirmish to sell ###### and make money move on.

 

You couldn't champ or priest without access to the wl without dying. Champ lives where the value the wl held the focal point. 

 

The game has become a quick buck earner, everybody for themselves. Moment like this make people realize. Loyalty matters.

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20 minutes ago, FranktheTank said:

That is half the problem with the game right now, back in the day before everyone and their mother became merchants, communities shared among themselves on pvp servers less focused on the financial end of the game. At the end of the day these are all virtual items that should honestly not have a real world value.

Actually I fully agree with that.  And we freely shared weapons and tools and armor with the two that sparked enki's post.  It wasn't enough for them.  It's greed that tends to cause situations like that, nothing more.

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