A response to Enki - How soft and pointless has PvP become.

[Pingpong 1,070]

My concern is that if the GM's are moving the target of what the "rules" are when it comes to dealing with situations, then we as a wurmian community on both sides of the pvp/pve border have little to no idea of what is/isn't allowed anymore. This is a huge can of wurms to open.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

You make a strong argument, Mau, and I agree. Like you said is not possession. Initially when Mich robbed us, we suspected it was an act of espionage, and that another kingdom had infiltrated us. I for one was excited in part. There were talks about flattening a WU deed in retaliation. My issue was that we couldn't strike back, it had been a kingdomless bum from freedom that goes to Chaos only loot the place. 

 

I agree espionage is a style of gameplay. I dont agree with what Mich did, however. That was not espionage and infiltration.

[JakeRivers 2,921]

So is the point of this whole post because either the author of it or his good buddy got banned from screwing over someone's deed?

[Lisabet 1,016]

One thing that makes me wonder is when people go "I was screwed over by X back in this year, and nothing was done. Why now?"

 

Why NOT now? Why is it a bad thing to put your foot down and say that it is not acceptable and will not be tolerated?

 

I'm very sorry if people in the past have had similar situations.  I wish that things could be retroactive.  BUT that doesn't mean let the crap continue into infinity because you got screwed.  I will never understand that mentality.

[JockII 338]

10 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

So is the point of this whole post because either the author of it or his good buddy got banned from screwing over someone's deed?

Neither, I don't know who got banned. My consideration is as the op stated and every comment I have made since.

 

PvP is being slammed at every turn and now gm's hands continue to take away even more elements from the game with no forethought.

 

Simply creating more work for themselves and the Devs.

 

The only out come I see is a straight up separation of pve and PvP like has been requested for years. Each having a rule set for their style of play.

 

This is only a small portion of the problem I mentioned. It adds to the lack of value in PvP and clearly show that PvP has become so boring and hold little interest due to the lack of meaningful warfare that money and personal gain has taken has taken centrefold.

 

Changes need to be made with both how gm's handle, maintain and implement rules.

 

This includes this situation and how it is part of PvP no matter how it is conducted. The game is about winning and taking all the other guys stuff.

 

Holding land or points of contest are gone, HOTA is a near valueless skirmish over a few kilos of ore on a timer. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by JockII

[Lisabet 1,016]

Tbh, if you enjoy infiltrating enemy deeds only to steal their stuff because you're too coward to take it by force, I don't really want to pvp with you anyway.

[Pingpong 1,070]

7 minutes ago, Lisabet said:

One thing that makes me wonder is when people go "I was screwed over by X back in this year, and nothing was done. Why now?"

 

Why NOT now? Why is it a bad thing to put your foot down and say that it is not acceptable and will not be tolerated?

 

I'm very sorry if people in the past have had similar situations.  I wish that things could be retroactive.  BUT that doesn't mean let the crap continue into infinity because you got screwed.  I will never understand that mentality.

I'd agree with this, I'd just ask what makes a situation special enough that Enki or who ever changes policy? Is it because someone knows someone who knows someone in high places ? Is it because it's good for the game? Or some other clear cut or nebulous reason? I'd have my doubts about the good for the game reason. Too many sides have been told to suck it up when same kinds of things have happened over the years. I think that's why events like this get such a lovely response, what makes xyz person/kingdom special enough to warrant a rule/policy change? Even if it's just for 1 event.

[Lisabet 1,016]

Just now, Pingpong said:

I'd agree with this, I'd just ask what makes a situation special enough that Enki or who ever changes policy? Is it because someone knows someone who knows someone in high places ? Is it because it's good for the game? Or some other clear cut or nebulous reason? I'd have my doubts about the good for the game reason. Too many sides have been told to suck it up when same kinds of things have happened over the years. I think that's why events like this get such a lovely response, what makes xyz person/kingdom special enough to warrant a rule/policy change? Even if it's just for 1 event.

 

Well, tbh...I doubt it's what you're suggesting.  Take a good look at my profile if you need more than a hint.

[JockII 338]

1 minute ago, Lisabet said:

Tbh, if you enjoy infiltrating enemy deeds only to steal their stuff because you're too coward to take it by force, I don't really want to pvp with you anyway.

Me?

 

I love raising a deed to the ground. Have done for over 10 years. I expect there are few people who have organised or conducted as many raids as me.

 

Many times I have solo raised even large deeds but this is only my play style I know of many people in this game and other whom love to play spy's and espionage. 

 

Sabotage the enemy from within to win the longer war. It comes down to offering more freedom to play in more styles. 

 

Once again it all comes down to how soft and meaningless PvP has become. Nobody is used to having everyone taken and war deess constantly smashed anymore. 

 

It has become quick skirmishes at HOTA with most of the time people running when out numbered.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

6 minutes ago, JockII said:

Neither, I don't know who got banned. My consideration is as the op stated and every comment I have made since.

 

PvP is being slammed at every turn and now gm's hands continue to take away even more elements from the game with no forethought.

 

Simply creating more work for themselves and the Devs.

 

The only out come I see is a straight up separation of pve and PvP like has been requested for years. Each having a rule set for their style of play.

 

This is only a small portion of the problem I mentioned. It adds to the lack of value in PvP and clearly show that PvP has become so boring and hold little interest due to the lack of meaningful warfare that money and personal gain has taken has taken centrefold.

 

Changes need to be made with both how gm's handle, maintain and implement rules.

 

This includes this situation and how it is part of PvP no matter how it is conducted. The game is about winning and taking all the other guys stuff.

 

Holding land or points of contest are gone, HOTA is a near valueless skirmish over a few kilos of ore on a timer. 

Please point out how does your suggestion addresses the issue of theft in the Freedom isles. How does separating Chaos from Freedom stops Freedomers from stealing from Freedomers. Last time I checked, Freedomers are victims of this infiltration to steal gamestyle too.

[JockII 338]

2 minutes ago, Pingpong said:

I'd agree with this, I'd just ask what makes a situation special enough that Enki or who ever changes policy? Is it because someone knows someone who knows someone in high places ? Is it because it's good for the game? Or some other clear cut or nebulous reason? I'd have my doubts about the good for the game reason. Too many sides have been told to suck it up when same kinds of things have happened over the years. I think that's why events like this get such a lovely response, what makes xyz person/kingdom special enough to warrant a rule/policy change? Even if it's just for 1 event.

This is another element of GM and how they handle things.

 

It's a decision end of..

 

No transparency, no process just here it is now ###### off. It's harsh and heavy handed with no thought or process of scrutiny.

 

It needs to change, rules to protect people are good. 

 

Protect them from harassment, racism and attacks against their sexual Identity. 

 

Protect the pve sever to allow a frictionless and soft society where people can relax and play.

 

However, taking away a tool or a style of combat from PvP not only harms it but it also adds questions of did someone pull some strings, a friend of a GM. 

 

We know this has happened in the passed but it should be put forward and scrutinized until a good solution and a fair rule set that enables PvP to be a free and chaotic battle ground.

[JockII 338]

5 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Please point out how does your suggestion addresses the issue of theft in the Freedom isles. How does separating Chaos from Freedom stops Freedomers from stealing from Freedomers. Last time I checked, Freedomers are victims of this infiltration to steal gamestyle too.

I agree pve needs different rule set and have mentioned they need to be separated and perfected to the style of play the govern. See above.

[rixk 830]

2 minutes ago, Lisabet said:

Tbh, if you enjoy infiltrating enemy deeds only to steal their stuff because you're too coward to take it by force, I don't really want to pvp with you anyway.

PvP comes in different forms. You can use force to take someone elses stuff.. or you can use cunning.  Labeling one as cowardly is weird. This can go further. Is sneak attack cowardly and should be banned? Deception?

 

Yes, there was a problem, but to outlaw theft on PvP server... I don't know. Especially when the underlying problem still remains - all your shinies can still be transported to safety of PvE servers, without a chance for you to reclaim... no matter how they were taken - in combat, or theft.

[JockII 338]

1 minute ago, rixk said:

PvP comes in different forms. You can use force to take someone elses stuff.. or you can use cunning.  Labeling one as cowardly is weird. This can go further. Is sneak attack cowardly and should be banned? Deception?

 

Yes, there was a problem, but to outlaw theft on PvP server... I don't know. Especially when the underlying problem still remains - all your shinies can still be transported to safety of PvE servers, without a chance for you to reclaim... no matter how they were taken - in combat, or theft.

I agree what other implications does this have?

 

Does this mean that libila needs changed as she activitly encourages deception and theft for your own gains, ban her too?

 

[Lisabet 1,016]

1 hour ago, FranktheTank said:

What I find sad about the banning of that guy is the fact that not only has this been happening since I stepped into pvp 8-9 years ago but this has personally happened to me or my friends 2-3 times but now it is decided it has to stop? I guess we all have different ideas of what a sandbox game is.

 

Just out of curiosity, where was it even stated or verified that the players in question were banned? Did I miss an official post somewhere?

[Matholameu 345]

4 minutes ago, Lisabet said:

 

Just out of curiosity, where was it even stated or verified that the players in question were banned? Did I miss an official post somewhere?

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you, don't feel like getting in on this argument. But, to answer your question. 

"I am surprised to see someone following in the footsteps of those we have removed already.  I refer to the incident reported here in these forums.  Keep in mind that we recently removed a couple of people from the game for this very activity." -Enki

 

I could be misinterpreting this, but there were a couple spots in the WSA or whatever it's called that definitely make it seem like the people in this case were banned. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Matholameu

[Lisabet 1,016]

But nothing specifically stating that the pair from that WSA were banned.  Let me flip that quote for you: "I am surprised to see someone following in the footsteps of those we have removed already.  I refer to the incident reported here in these forums.  Keep in mind that we recently removed a couple of people from the game for this very activity." -Enki

Edited June 22, 2017 by Lisabet
*grumbles at the forums*

[Wargasm 1,927]

Jockll is basically saying that spy warfare should be legit.  By that token, he must think what happened to MR (I'm referring to the host of wrongdoings associated with "the MR forum incident") should be legit and not a bannable offense.

 

Do you agree Jockll?  You think the (three?) individuals shouldn't have been banned, all those MR players should have lost their accounts?

[Matholameu 345]

3 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

Jockll is basically saying that spy warfare should be legit.  By that token, he must think what happened to MR (I'm referring to the host of wrongdoings associated with "the MR forum incident") should be legit and not a bannable offense.

 

Do you agree Jockll?  You think the (three?) individuals shouldn't have been banned, all those MR players should have lost their accounts?

Edited June 22, 2017 by Matholameu
Chose a better pic.

[Zaramoth 66]

This is something i did openly for years. Join a town, play with them, pvp with them, maybe get one or two of them killed, then cart all their stuff out to my actual friends/next targets.

 

I must have done this a dozen times over the years on Epic  and wild and there wasnt ever any problem.

 

If you think that; "infiltrating a PVP village for the purpose of looting" isnt pvp  you're a ###### idiot.

 

Spying is a part of war

Sabotage is a part of war

PvP is meant to be a war between kingdoms and groups in this game yes? stop acting like its a ###### girls pillow fight where everything needs to be sunshine and daisies.

[JockII 338]

5 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

Jockll is basically saying that spy warfare should be legit.  By that token, he must think what happened to MR (I'm referring to the host of wrongdoings associated with "the MR forum incident") should be legit and not a bannable offense.

 

Do you agree Jockll?  You think the (three?) individuals shouldn't have been banned, all those MR players should have lost their accounts?

Did they go beyond the game a do actually damage that could be considered illegal on a forum that is not and does not have official affiliation with wurm?

 

If so no, they should not have been banned it is not of concern of the Devs it would be a police matter. Cyber crime.

 

However to reafirm what I brought this thread  up for is due to this:

 

We expect there to be raiding and looting and killing and slaughtering and pillaging and banter and all that goes with PVP, but infiltrating a PVP village for the purpose of looting it is not acceptable.  This is NOT PVP!  PVP is raiding a village like a... raider.. or a pirate... or  an enemy.  Becoming a villager under any pretense to gain the trust of a village and then abusing the permissions they have given you to steal from them or cause harm to them is not in any sense a PVP action!  It is an utterly reprehensible action that we do not accept as an expected behavior!

 

GM are now saying how we should play the game, making rules as of what is PvP and what tacitcs we are allowed to use in warfare.

 

These are valid although ruthless actions they are preventable. The game has the tools required to limit player access.

 

Libila herself influences these exact actions.

Edited June 22, 2017 by JockII

[JockII 338]

You are expected and required to use all effective means available: Terror, deception, torture, death, sacrifices.

 

Are you ready to join the Horde of the Summoned? Know that if you choose not to, you are against us!

[Wargasm 1,927]

2 minutes ago, JockII said:

Did they go beyond the game a do actually damage that could be considered illegal on a forum that is not and does not have official affiliation with wurm?

 

If so no, they should not have been banned it is not of concern of the Devs it would be a police matter. Cyber crime.

 

While I'm not going to have the "Cyber Crime" debate, thank you for proving my point.  Whether you agree or disagree that people should have been banned for what happened to MR in that incident, it was a contributing factor to 50+ people packing up and sailing back to Freedom.  Incidents like this are detrimental to the overall PvP population.  If you disagree, have fun playing by yourself, as Lisabet said.

 

 

[Pingpong 1,070]

So in a game that has masses of alts and encourages them and in some sense relies on them for subs, we're now being told don't use alts for spies? Should mains be used instead? I'm starting to get this picture of pvp on chaos, Team 1 pulls up to an enemy deed, "anyone online guys? no? guess we have to go home then or risk a ban, if there's no one to kill we can't loot anything". Hyperbole...kinda...

[Lisabet 1,016]

what's stopping you from breaking into the deed and looting/draining it?

 

Specifically as an enemy where you have to deal with templars, guards, etc, instead of joining them, gaining their trust and looting that way.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Lisabet