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JockII

A response to Enki - How soft and pointless has PvP become.

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This post is in regards to :

 

 

 


 We expect there to be raiding and looting and killing and slaughtering and pillaging and banter and all that goes with PVP, but infiltrating a PVP village for the purpose of looting it is not acceptable.  This is NOT PVP!  PVP is raiding a village like a... raider.. or a pirate... or  an enemy.  Becoming a villager under any pretense to gain the trust of a village and then abusing the permissions they have given you to steal from them or cause harm to them is not in any sense a PVP action!  It is an utterly reprehensible action that we do not accept as an expected behavior!
 

 

 

Spying and infiltration is and has always been a huge part of any warfare. The more rules you place for gm's to manage the less of a sandbox and more of a document people need to read before they can even play the game. You have all the deed permission and can allow the players to govern themselves. Loyalty is built through trust and cooperation not GM rules!

 

This is all part of the grander problem with pvp. There is nothing to fight for, no value or achievement to gain. At least back when permachamps where a thing the wl and bl held value. Now they serve as nothing more than a point of reference in travel, or top up points. Giving faith, some Dr or recharge the little used and over valued artifacts.

 

You need to stop making PvP a hand holding contest, repair the economy of wurm. Especially in PvP in relation to deeds and kingdoms. Beyond that you require a huge overhaul of objective based war. With meaningful gains beyond a few numbers (land,rank) and a few lumps of metal that had once been rare.

 

Beyond this everyone is see a thread of PvP ban, warning. The GM team are quickly becoming more prominent and invasive on PvP servers, often. Making quick irrational calls with little thought or regards to the long term effects it will have. I myself and many people I have played with directly refuse to build a pmk due to how a situation had been handled. When you(Enki) yourself took a banned item(crown) and handed it to a player with no deed, no title or any really claim to have out any long term monitery value in to the kingdom.  This is a perfect example of how harsh and incomprehensive decisions can allenate players, many of them have not and will not return from this single event alone.

 

I myself had been burnt out and hardly played wurm online, everyone I look to return I see another failing moment of judgement with the community of the remains players out crying against the decision. This can only be reflected in the slowly reducing premium membership.

 

I have a special place for wurm and really hope it succeeds in the ever growing and competitive market it is in but things need to change and more rules enforced by GM rulling, taking up valuable time that the few good ones have to deal with these senarios such as infiltration that already have game mechanics to prevent.

 

Stop going beyond the required intervention unless absolutely necessary and if you do, make sure all players are equally compensated. 

 

Update:

General agreements/over arching and repeated comments.

 

 

 


I think that we can all agree that the rules cannot be made to cover 2  very different style of play and atmosphere.

 

I think it's also fair to assume that we relatively agree that freedom should have protections in the event of theft as a last defence if adequite game mechanics can not prevent theft.

 

We also seem to have some level agreement that chaos and PvP as general should not be attached to Pve directly. With the ability to off load goes to a safe haven.

 

I would also say that it is fair to assume that we require more meaningful PvP to restablish some level of long term, community driven objective warfare. That will offer people to build trust and allenate those that are malicious and prove they are untrustworthy by the community rejecting them safe havens.

 

Restoration of value of the wl and other new global objective or map control position  is on be method to a good step to building meaningful PvP.

 

A good suggestion here(better than my permadeath idea):

 

 

I  would say that the discussion to merge epic and Chaos should be reopened with an open mind and a good look at premium numbers.

 

I do suggest that a method of moving between the freedom and PvP cluster naked via teleport should be in place so People who skill up on PvP can join PvP at their new pleasure.

 

PvP improvements are required, how gm's intervine needs to be light handed and well represented reason why, open to public scrutiny as to build a better game and community.

 
 

Edited by JockII
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If you want espionage (and most abuses) to stop then delete alts and ban the ability to make them.

 

Yup, espionage stays.

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In my opinion, the problem doesn't lie with PvP in this case. It lies in the fact that the stolen items were taken to Freedom, where there is absolutely no chance of the kingdom getting them back. If the thief had stayed on Chaos with everything, it would have been a nice challenge for the kingdom to track the guy down and kill him to get their stuff back. *That's* what PvP is all about. NOT robbing your own kingdom blind then bolting to Freedom--where the mechanics aren't there to have any fair shot at getting anything back--to hide out with the loot.

 

PvP should stay on PvP. That's my opinion.

Edited by Joelle
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3 minutes ago, Joelle said:

In my opinion, the problem doesn't lie with PvP in this case. It lies in the fact that the stolen items were taken to Freedom, where there is absolutely no chance of the kingdom getting them back. If the thief had stayed on Chaos with everything, it would have been a nice challenge for the kingdom to track the guy down and kill him to get their stuff back. *That's* what PvP is all about. NOT robbing your own kingdom blind then bolting to Freedom--where the mechanics aren't there to have any fair shot at getting anything back--to hide out with the loot.

 

PvP should stay on PvP. That's my opinion.

 

Then take Chaos away from freedom isles. It's a simple fix.

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Just now, Erevorn said:

 

Then take Chaos away from freedom isles. It's a simple fix.

 

One that I absolutely support.

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20 minutes ago, Joelle said:

In my opinion, the problem doesn't lie with PvP in this case. It lies in the fact that the stolen items were taken to Freedom, where there is absolutely no chance of the kingdom getting them back. If the thief had stayed on Chaos with everything, it would have been a nice challenge for the kingdom to track the guy down and kill him to get their stuff back. *That's* what PvP is all about. NOT robbing your own kingdom blind then bolting to Freedom--where the mechanics aren't there to have any fair shot at getting anything back--to hide out with the loot.

 

PvP should stay on PvP. That's my opinion.

I loved chaos back when it was wild but having a 100% safe place attached kills PvP but offers alot in the way of trade potential but wurm doesn't use the latter.

 

Due to this there is little to no reason to have freedom attached to chaos, personally I would have loved to see chaos map replace elevation and merged before they replaced the map but anything they do with their split long term invested pvpers needs to be drastic but allow them to transfer all that investment over. 

 

Then you have to look at the absurdities of the number of god's to manage, the game has become a stitched quilt of patches all dealing with 1 issue as it arrise rather than a long term plan to create something better.

 

Both clusters have amazing potential and good bases, they just need to combine them in the correct way. 

 

With regards to trade between servers it would need alot of thought to manage correctly. Pve and PvP can exist between them. Perhaps combine all to 1 large cluster/ world.

 

With elevation/ chaos being the core to PvP leading to home servers then to the smaller be over servers etc, building a world to inhabit longer sailing will deter shipping of goods but also give a progressive level of involvement in PvP this is but a glancing thought.

 

 

Edited by JockII

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18 minutes ago, Erevorn said:

 

Then take Chaos away from freedom isles. It's a simple fix.

 

Some of us have asked for this over the years and nothing would make us happier. This isn't the old days of Chaos/JKHome/MRHome before Indy.... this is now and now the connection between Chaos and the Freedom Isles is being abused.

 

Close the Gate. Sever the Link. Please. As Erevorn says it's a simple fix, easier than the nightmare to figure out where the loot gotten taken to now.

Edited by geode
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I was a bit annoyed at how things got sorted, a GM should not have gotten involved, although I feel sympathy for those affected, I feel that a new standard has been set for PVP as a whole. If you don't want people taking their gains from chaos to freedom.. then disconnect them, but getting punished for it is a little absurd. The only thing that was abused was the trust of some really good people.

Destroying an enemy from within has always been a thing in competitive PVP games, so it was no surprise to me to hear someone got jacked. 

 

The goal will always be to plunder, rather you backstab your own, or anybody that comes in between, it's still pvp, is it a low thing to do, yeah it's like a sucker punch.. but sucker punches win fights sometimes, but not everybody agrees with them.

The wild does not feel so wild anymore. 

Edited by Legios
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Kinda funny, stealing is banned on chaos, but nothing been said about pve servers, so it seems here it is still ok. :D

 

Anyway, wurm is back where it was, when Rolf enabled PvP on home servers. This is exactly what he wanted to "combat", his solution was bit off tho. I read, that he intended to separate wild from home servers. I wonder what happened to that idea:

 

 

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I think epic had a great solution with its homeserver set up and I would love to see epjc and chaos merged to do the same. Including a way to transfer naked accounts from freedom to the wild cluster.

 

I think it be good to have a 1 way system of trade from pve to PvP as an item sink for pve to keep their economy circulating. Money should always be transferable.

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Making a character explicitly to join a kingdom on Chaos and to steal their stuff once you've gained their trust should never be allowed. It will ruin the game for new, legit people, and will inevitably make people quit due to the fact you can't do anything once the items have been brought to freedom.

 

That and gaining the trust of people in order to gain their passwords to characters to steal everything they own should never be accepted.

 

 

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I could take the time to write out a long detailed reply to this detailing what was wrong, and why I did what I did, but after reading a bunch of messages in email and forum and this OP and the above comments it feels to me like the majority of people who care about this situation understand what the problem is and what I was getting at.  At least I do hope that is the case.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Enki said:

I could take the time to write out a long detailed reply to this detailing what was wrong, and why I did what I did, but after reading a bunch of messages in email and forum and this OP and the above comments it feels to me like the majority of people who care about this situation understand what the problem is and what I was getting at.  At least I do hope that is the case.

 

 

Straight question.

 

Is stealing now banned also on PvE servers?

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1 hour ago, Redd said:

Making a character explicitly to join a kingdom on Chaos and to steal their stuff once you've gained their trust should never be allowed. It will ruin the game for new, legit people, and will inevitably make people quit due to the fact you can't do anything once the items have been brought to freedom.

 

That and gaining the trust of people in order to gain their passwords to characters to steal everything they own should never be accepted.

 

 

 

This. Actions like these just drive people away from the game. They can't even retaliate or take their stuff back since the thief can simply slap it on a bunch of alts and never log them in again.

 

I'd rather see Wurm encourage an environment where you can trust each other (as GMs will step in when abuse like this takes place) then that Wurm becomes an environment where you can't trust anybody. The latter isn't any fun to play in.

I had a similar back stabbing happen to me in another game, where a guy decided to run off with everything once he was given more power. This guy had been in the alliance for more than SIX years, he always had our back and we always had his. The GMs in that game did nothing and most of the group quit within the next year, because why bother playing in a game which endorces such shitty behavior?

 

So I'm really glad Enki did what he did.

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It all comes down to effort, too much effort to raid a deed using catapults and pvp play, no effort to join the same village and rob it from inside.

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Let's not confuse spies putting their lives on the line to help the soldiers in trenches gain better intel, with a sociopath conning people with no regard for anything but their own monetary gain or perverse self-satisfaction.

 

Granted, with the way alts work, it wouldn't really seem that the spy in Wurm is putting anything on the line at all.  The risk lies entirely with the kingdom kind enough to give a noob a chance.  The risk is theirs entirely.

 

Having a GM intervene when someone abuses a system is what allows the system to exist.  Even in real life, you smuggle a picasso from enemy territory back to your own, safe country for monetary gain, and your own military will come down on you like a ton of marble bricks.

 

Nothing about this situation had anything to do with espionage.  It wasn't done on behalf of any other kingdom to further the cause.  This wasn't player versus player.  It wasn't even outlaw vs. establishment.  It was one or two people setting out to ruin the game-play of others for their own benefit.

 

People who insist on a "Lord of the Flies" type anarchy in PvP games always fail to understand player vs. player requires BOTH sides to be having fun.  Otherwise, get used to playing with yourself as nobody will want to play with you.  It isn't playing if the fun is completely one-sided.

 

You don't grow a PvP community by letting a handful of maladjusted brats ruin the experience for everybody else.  PvP isn't a license or invitation to be a jerk, it's an invitation to be challenged in a way no ai could ever challenge you.  Artificial intelligence can beat a human at chess, but only within the rules of the game.  If you want a looser rule book, you need humans to intervene when the brat decides to take a hammer to all your chess pieces because he or she can.

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What I find sad about the banning of that guy is the fact that not only has this been happening since I stepped into pvp 8-9 years ago but this has personally happened to me or my friends 2-3 times but now it is decided it has to stop? I guess we all have different ideas of what a sandbox game is.

Edited by FranktheTank
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50 minutes ago, Enki said:

I could take the time to write out a long detailed reply to this detailing what was wrong, and why I did what I did, but after reading a bunch of messages in email and forum and this OP and the above comments it feels to me like the majority of people who care about this situation understand what the problem is and what I was getting at.  At least I do hope that is the case.

 

 

This sadly appears to be the go to response for all GM or any decisions that they refuse to explain.  

 

How they reach that decision and the process that follow we do it.

 

People understand, plenty of people say wait... No we don't so those voices get drowned out in the solution that simply places more work on GM hands.

 

It is with great sadness that GM either do not have the time, willingness or power to resolve many of these problems more publicly for it to fall under a wider scrutiny to what is an adequite response.

 

Retuening to this matter particuarly. I personally understand how people can feel about being robbed by their "friends". I myself lost a champ life (when permachamps) to members of my own kingdom. Something at the time more valuable that many things.

 

To put this in to monitery Consideration between the character and the gear on him it would be easily over the vakue of 1000 euro.

 

I did not threat so much but organised a punishment to those that wronged me. With friends I had gather across the boundaries of another kingdom through diplomacy and trust.

 

A slow process that took time and patience but back then people where more sceptical, had recruitment towns and loyalty be game in the value of requirement to survive.

 

Even then their had been people abusing trust, using tactics of this sort and much it was not governed.

 

From all I have seen the more the game governs PvP and inconsistently changes the rule set people are allowed to play by or the expected content they should follow. The less free and meaningful war has become, many changes creating poorly attainable buffs to the elite that leave noobs out to dry.

 

Bring by meaning and reduce the GM impact on PvP. Return it to the virtual reluctantance that Rolf once had to intervine and restore the PvP council once brought about to influence and inform the Dev team of what is required to rebuild PvP and garner new people into it.

Edited by JockII

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5 minutes ago, FranktheTank said:

What I find sad about the banning of that guy is the fact that not only has this been happening since I stepped into pvp 8-9 years ago but this has personally happened to me or my friends 2-3 times but now it is decided it has to stop? I guess we all have different ideas of what a sandbox game is.

A real Sandbox would be the way Epic is played. Freedomers argue that this is a sandbox, that it should be allowrd in the Chaos cluster. The solution should be to separate the clusters. As long as THEIR gameplay is unnafected, who cares?

 

But there is another solution. One that pvers will definetely balk at. Make this game a true sandbox. Enable pvp in thr freedom cluster. That way if someone steals from you, you have the ability to make them pay. It fixes the problem both in Chaos and Freedom. Whats that? No? You dont like others interfering with the way you play? I thought so.

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6 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

A real Sandbox would be the way Epic is played. Freedomers argue that this is a sandbox, that it should be allowrd in the Chaos cluster. The solution should be to separate the clusters. As long as THEIR gameplay is unnafected, who cares?

 

But there is another solution. One that pvers will definetely balk at. Make this game a true sandbox. Enable pvp in thr freedom cluster. That way if someone steals from you, you have the ability to make them pay. It fixes the problem both in Chaos and Freedom. Whats that? No? You dont like others interfering with the way you play? I thought so.

Their is simply no reason to force a different playstyle of PvP on to pve. A simpler solution to combat Alts crossing with boats full of gear would be to create skill requirement.

 

E.G. 30? Mind logic 

 

Message "you do not have the skill to chart the waters to chaos"

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Just now, JockII said:

There is simply no reason to force a different playstyle of PvP on to pve. A simpler solution to combat Alts crossing with boats full of gear would be to create skill requirement.

 

E.G. 30? Mind logic 

 

Message "you do not have the skill to chart the waters to chaos"

 

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9 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

A real Sandbox would be the way Epic is played. Freedomers argue that this is a sandbox, that it should be allowrd in the Chaos cluster. The solution should be to separate the clusters. As long as THEIR gameplay is unnafected, who cares?

 

But there is another solution. One that pvers will definetely balk at. Make this game a true sandbox. Enable pvp in thr freedom cluster. That way if someone steals from you, you have the ability to make them pay. It fixes the problem both in Chaos and Freedom. Whats that? No? You dont like others interfering with the way you play? I thought so.

Forgive me if you are not directly referencing me, but I have and always will support pvp on freedom servers whether it be full blown war or alliance wars.

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3 minutes ago, FranktheTank said:

Forgive me if you are not directly referencing me, but I have and always will support pvp on freedom servers whether it be full blown war or alliance wars.

I know you are Frank. You are not a pver. I am mainly speaking to the sentiment you posted. People speak as if the -only- solution is one that doesnt affect their playstyle. You cant say its a sandbox, deal with it, and then haul your loot to your little freedom deed where its safe  wether you stole on freedom or chaos. If GMs dont intervene, the system as it is currently benefits those who hurt the community in lieu of the people who play the game as its intended. I doubt the devs intended for you to be able to rob someone for hundreds of euros so you could sell it all and pay for your college tuition.

 

Intervention is necessary if you want to keep your precious Freedom Isles. The fact Enki started to take action is a step in the right direction and was long overdue. I havent received any compensation for my stolen items, but the fact that something is being done satisfies me. Its not about justice, its about balance and not letting our great game go to hell in a 2016 christmas picnic basket.

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What I fear most about the intervening of GMs on chaos matters is the fact that there will be no end to it. There are many things which now can be considered agasint the rules. I also understand that it may not doing anything about it also has a negative effect but that is where a balance or real solution needs to be made. Back in wild days and not very long ago i knew many of people who were infiltrated into kingdoms and forums pages and that is how a big portion of wild had been played. As of late perhaps the past year or 2 there is much much less of that going on.

 

My issue with this is why is this changing now? Was it not good enough to change back when Ebo was robbed by a JK player And we lost a slew of rare items and forges? I'm sure many of people have been affected in some way that could be considered under this same ruling. 

 

And the argument about the players being able to take items to freedom is a weak argument and should never be allowed to be used. This is the game you provide us. You allow the transfer of goods between servers players don't force it or bug anything to allow it. There is very little difference between loot ending up in freedom or remaining on chaos. Possession is nine-tenths of the law. And the only way for said players to possess anything is at the hands of the those who allowed them. 

 

Again I'm at a stand point where in some way something should be done but I don't believe intervention and banning is the solution because that further complicates things and ultimately has a negative affect whether you see it or not. A part of what the game and pvp in any game is about is being stripped away and soon we will all have no accountability for our foolish actions. I will be able to leave all my items in the open and claim they are mine my name is on them they are not meant to be stolen and sold for profits on freedom. 

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You are playing their game.  They have the right to intervene when they please.  If you don't like it, go play another game.

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