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Alkhadias

Freedom Kingdoms!

Kingdoms on Freedom  

47 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you agree with concept?

    • Yes, at all.
      16
    • No, at all.
      24
    • Yes, with some changes.
      6
    • No, but....
      1


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On the one hand, it sounds to me like this would be beneficial for wurm as a whole; gives the PvE whales somewhere to spend their money, reduces the reliance on the falling PvP population for certain goods/services, adds incentives to explore the world and encourages large communities.  All things likely to have a positive impact on player retention.

 

On the other hand. in reality, PvP goods are the only stable market at the moment and it risks destabilising it thus causing a lot of issues in an already turbulent time.  This would hit the PvP crowd quite hard as the big sellers for any kingdom are its tents/wagons/flags/towers, it would force them to spend more money in a system which is already paying out much less than it once did and this might well be the final nail in the coffin of wurm PvP (it could force population below critical mass).  There is also the matter of the INSANE powers granted with certain titles (50% favor costs with high priest anyone?).

 

Overall this implementation would benefit more people than it harms, but the people it harms are already in a pretty dire place and the harm inflicted is uncertain to be outweighed by the good it creates.  I'll reserve judgment until after the "religion overhaul", see how badly I get nerfed this time around.

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On 21.06.2017 at 10:19 AM, Myriad said:

No, never. Keep your senseless vandalism to yourselves.

I like and enjoy constructive opinions. 

 

On 21.06.2017 at 10:31 AM, Redd said:

I fear this may be taking uniqueness away from PvP servers. -1 from me.

Yes you might be right, thou, not at all. First of all, pretty much whole uniqueness of PvP servers is... PvP itself. Uniqueness lays in fighting other players, raiding their deeds, looting them and within a world itself. Totally different deeds, closed with defensive purposes, totally other goals to achieve. That's most of PvP servers uniqueness. Second, do PMKs really unique on Freedom in terms of sake of them? I see PMK towers, wagons, banners in pretty much all Freedom deeds. I see PMKs colours more frequently than freedom ones, is it really unique? Not at all. 

 

On 21.06.2017 at 11:17 AM, JakeRivers said:

All the perks, non of the risk.

 

-1

 

And who said there should be any risk? What risk? Why? Did bridges had any risk when introduced? Only pros. Did new cooking system had any cons? Did Player dieties introduce any cons within their mechanic for freedom? I see no reasons or any need for any risks within freedom pmks. 

 

On 21.06.2017 at 7:01 PM, geode said:

"No, not at all"

 

Not interested. I consider it a benefit for there to be only one Kingdom on my Server, and that it is at war with no one, and that it is a Lawful Kingdom compared to some others. I do not desire my own kingdom tabard, nor any other special perk that PMKs have.

 

Not to mention that allowing PMKs on Freedom would be a step in the direction of altering the Freedom servers to allow PvP in some form, and I am opposed to that completely. If I want PvP I will move to Epic or Chaos.

It's not introducing PvP on Freedom in any form. You just used to think about PvP when there's talking about PMKs. Also doesn't PvP altering Freedom? Are you sure? PvP players lives among Freedom ones, Deeds of PMKs players are all around us, full of PMKs stuff, PMK stuff is getting more popular than freedom ones. 

 

On 21.06.2017 at 7:41 PM, Etherdrifter said:

On the one hand, it sounds to me like this would be beneficial for wurm as a whole; gives the PvE whales somewhere to spend their money, reduces the reliance on the falling PvP population for certain goods/services, adds incentives to explore the world and encourages large communities.  All things likely to have a positive impact on player retention.

 

On the other hand. in reality, PvP goods are the only stable market at the moment and it risks destabilising it thus causing a lot of issues in an already turbulent time.  This would hit the PvP crowd quite hard as the big sellers for any kingdom are its tents/wagons/flags/towers, it would force them to spend more money in a system which is already paying out much less than it once did and this might well be the final nail in the coffin of wurm PvP (it could force population below critical mass).  There is also the matter of the INSANE powers granted with certain titles (50% favor costs with high priest anyone?).

 

Overall this implementation would benefit more people than it harms, but the people it harms are already in a pretty dire place and the harm inflicted is uncertain to be outweighed by the good it creates.  I'll reserve judgment until after the "religion overhaul", see how badly I get nerfed this time around.

Finally real good point. Thing is, that Chaos PMKs will still be able to sell their unique goods. Introducing PMKs on freedom won't make their own designs more common, they'll still selling as much as they want. If they want to keep their goods uncommon, they'll still be selling only a bunch or two per month. Also GMS will introduce own coats design in some way or another sooner or later. So It'll hit PMKs market regardless of my idea sooner or later anyway. 

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32 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

On the other hand. in reality, PvP goods are the only stable market at the moment and it risks destabilising it thus causing a lot of issues in an already turbulent time.  This would hit the PvP crowd quite hard as the big sellers for any kingdom are its tents/wagons/flags/towers, it would force them to spend more money in a system which is already paying out much less than it once did and this might well be the final nail in the coffin of wurm PvP.

 

There has been talk of coats of arms (in fact it was my idea) and the idea was welcome fairly optimistically. Most PVP players are high-end so I'm pretty sure they can provide for themselves (spoken by someone who is not at all high-end and provides for himself) and besides PVP has always been Rolf's cherry-on-top so trust me when I say PVP will be fine. Think of the Pros that Alkhadias listed pretty well if you ask me.

 

Also thank you for trying to raise a discussion instead of bashing the idea and the OP.

 

A declaration for a freedom PMK would cost 2g.

a- high-end players hoarding tons of gold will have a place to spend it meaning more coins in rotation;

b- putting together 2g will mean a lot of cooperation for lower to medium-end players which in turn would bring forward cohesion and healthy rivalries;

 

There are quite a few other ideas that come to mind but they've been pretty much summed up by others before me.

 

 

 

 

 

More wagon and banner designs is priceless, for everything else there is MinusOne.

Why?

Edited by Erevorn

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Hrm, that's high cost for little gains (specially regarding the upkeep reduction suggested - lack of 'kingdom' titles). PMKs are more than just the heraldry and as much as I'd like to see some freedom counties / dukedoms (ie. not kingdom but still important enough to have their own titles / heraldry and perks) it should have a better balance than : some players will be able to fork out a shitload of cash, so lets do this.

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Here's an alternative idea - landlords.

 

We could have people become landlords for a certain amount of coins which would allow them to buy land a little cheaper than deed land so it could be bigger (would work perfectly on Xanadu for example. There wouldn't be any permissions as to the owned land per se BUT it would be protected by the rules. The owner is free to wall the area in and he would be able to put people on "land kos" which would allow him to wage war (pvp kind) against trespassers.

 

Then again, mines, clay deposits etc protected by said land could be rented out.

 

EDIT: Actually that's too much PVP for freedom isles. Many would perish.

 

Pros:

- new titles;

- new art (possibly);

- big town-like places with mining/digging/woodcutting operations, farm deeds etc all within a sort of an alliance;

 

Cons:

- pvp on pve servers;

Edited by Erevorn

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No, because the unique income opportunities on chaos have slowly dwindled patch after patch, this is yet another one freedomers want without the risk of pvp. IE Selling PMK wagons and art items etc.

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On 21/06/2017 at 7:11 PM, Erevorn said:

There has been talk of coats of arms (in fact it was my idea) and the idea was welcome fairly optimistically. Most PVP players are high-end so I'm pretty sure they can provide for themselves (spoken by someone who is not at all high-end and provides for himself) and besides PVP has always been Rolf's cherry-on-top so trust me when I say PVP will be fine. Think of the Pros that Alkhadias listed pretty well if you ask me.

 

Also thank you for trying to raise a discussion instead of bashing the idea and the OP.

 

A declaration for a freedom PMK would cost 2g.

a- high-end players hoarding tons of gold will have a place to spend it meaning more coins in rotation;

b- putting together 2g will mean a lot of cooperation for lower to medium-end players which in turn would bring forward cohesion and healthy rivalries;

 

There are quite a few other ideas that come to mind but they've been pretty much summed up by others before me.

4

 

It's not quite me you'd have to convince; the big naysayers are the people on PvP who make a lot of money from the goods they sell.  They're a vocal crowd on the forums and unless something sweetens their pot it's going to get hammered down by them (and thus the devs will never take action).

 

While this is a horrible state of affairs that has blocked a lot of good suggestions, it's the cruel reality (take this from someone who has been trying to get priests and easier time on PvE for the past 4 years ;)).

 

Personally speaking, I'd be all for seeing player kingdoms but, as the post above me indicates, this is not likely to happen because someone will lose out financially and wurm is all about the money to some.

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On 23.06.2017 at 11:47 PM, Threap said:

No, because the unique income opportunities on chaos have slowly dwindled patch after patch, this is yet another one freedomers want without the risk of pvp. IE Selling PMK wagons and art items etc.

Thing is, that even PvPers won't sell their PMK designs forever. Freedom Market is going straight downwards, and chaos is a part of freedom afterall. Currently, in my opinion Market is almost dead, rare tools with 90+ enchants are selling for 3-4s, rare tools with crazy enchants and even 100 imbues are selling for ~20s, where price of potions itself is twice or more of that. Scale sets can hardly get any interest even for 200s. People are still trying to sell their scale piecec at 50-60c for 0.1 piece, because very soon it won't sell for such price anymore. Why one should buy a scale piece for example to make a scale jacket at 132s if he can buy whole set with high enchants and rare parts for 200s or even less? If scale, rares, supremes prices are going to dirt, you really think that you'll be able to sell your pmk wagons and tents much longer? No, it'll flood the market sooner or later, and make no mistake, it'll be much sooner than everyone's thinking and there won't be any more demand for this. If game could get more players, freedom market could be more stable than it's now. But it won't happend. So, it's not wise to cut new possibilities for freedomers, because Chaos is also a part of Freedom, and it'll sink together with Freedom... it'll probably sink with their pmk designs before PvE servers of freedom anyway if we won't change anything and if we won't create new goals, achieves and possibilities for players. Imo

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On 20.06.2017 at 11:47 PM, Matholameu said:

Even if they were "separate" we could always make a replica of our Chaos PMKs on Freedom. @nicedreams

-1

 

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+1

 

And to those saying "muh incumz!" .. two things:

1)   What about Freedomers' incomes?  (If your reply is "they can sell bulk mats!", well, there's the solution to YOUR incomes).

2)  Get a job.  If you have one and are still worried about Wurm incomes, better yourself and aim higher in life.

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Freedom Kingdom for Freedom Isles, and PMK for Chaos. Other people fight for they Kingdom, if Freedom have some PMK this be free, you only pay some coins and have PMK like people from Chaos where everyone work for kingdom.

Chaos live becouse have somethink what Freedom dont have...... PMK and PvP. If Freedom take PMK, no one go to Chaos

 

 

PS: Sorry for my english, i still learn.

Edited by Hawkinson

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If freedom kingdoms are actually going to be a thing, they should have a minimum number of deeds (and if you go below the number, kingdom disbands) and a minimum number of total cost of deeds in the alliance (and if you go below that cost, kingdom disbands). And yknow... you are a kingdom capital, so you need to be large, especia;ly since you are in peace time (freedom) and had time to develop. So active number of deeds, active ammount of deed cost for kingdom and minimum ammount of indeed tiles (not perimeter) cost, minimum number of templars (to defend from bandits from a roleplaying standpoint) for capital. 

 

If freedom kingdoms are allowed with no precautions, with no actual meaning, you will see that they quickly turn into 1 man investment kingdoms like what traders used to be but with designs.

 

Also would be nice to add kingdom deed based pvp to the requirements above, where people are free to roam outside to hunt and whatnot but once enemy are within your kingdom deed borders, they can siege it or raid it or kill you inside it, like reverse permissions. All of which will only effect deeds within a kingdom, not normal deeds. Or it could be like only members and structures of a pve kingdom are targets for other pve kingdoms both on deed and offdeed, while regular freedom kingdom players and deeds remain safe from everything. This way, if people want kingdoms and pvp in pve server, they can have it, while everyone else is safe from all this and pve kingdoms are safe from freedom kingdom.

Edited by Lucyein

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Meh, i'll just talk about the part related to new arts and designs...

I feel there are already WAY too many of them, there were already a lot of them earlier, then like 4 new ones came out in less than a year, so everything is becoming more colorful and random.
Adding even more kingdoms, even on the freedom cluster, would mean having to face an incredible amount of even new ones.

I think that custom designs are already losing its uniqueness, the more they come out, the more the feeling about them (and therefore the market) will become random and dispersive, it's already kinda abused as it its, brining it to freedom would probably be the end of any sense of this, and we would end up livin in a colorful world with dozens of designs, most people would lose count and track of them, and they will become nothing so special : D

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On the full contrary, if you limit designs to half a dozen, they'll be all over the place and not  be unique at all, whereas if there is more creative liberty, many will suck and go ignored as you say while a handful will truly stand out.

 

There are a million types of wristwatches out there, yet Rolex stands out (to oversimplify a bit).

 

What I see here is Chaos demanding its monopoly and Freedom requesting a free market economy regarding kingdom paraphernalia.

 

tip:  Free market economies are way more with the spirit of sandboxing.

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On 6/21/2017 at 1:57 PM, Alkhadias said:

It's not introducing PvP on Freedom in any form. You just used to think about PvP when there's talking about PMKs. Also doesn't PvP altering Freedom? Are you sure? PvP players lives among Freedom ones, Deeds of PMKs players are all around us, full of PMKs stuff, PMK stuff is getting more popular than freedom ones.

 

It is what I see as a "gateway" suggestion/decision that may lead to less opposition to PvP flag turned on in Freedom Isles servers in the future... for that is exactly how real world politics advances a change unto the populous that they [the populous] are not in favor of, first suggest a seemingly harmless change that then becomes the foundation for a later change that the politicians wanted from the start... and that tactic has been used MANY times in Wurm over the years on these forums to promote changes.

 

In regards to PMK stuff being allowed on Freedom Isles servers... I have been 100% opposed to this from the moment the Devs allowed it. I am opposed to all of it, including Missions. IMO all of those features belong on Epic and/or Chaos servers for where they were originally designed and where for the Devs said they were intended. I remember when these content features/itmes were itroduced into the game and at that time the Devs said it was to be a "carrot" to lure Players to the PvP servers (which I feel was a great idea, there should be special rewards for PvP, "risk vs. reward"). My opposition to anything PMK on Freedom Isles servers remains because of this original intent as well as other considerations. I myself won't purchase a MR guardtower on a Freedom Isle server even though originally my character was aligned with MR and I still have loyalty to that Faction to some extent (and still is on Epic when I port).

 

I played Wurm before Indy server was established, I played in the "old world" of JKHome and MRHome and Chaos and I was playing when Rolf decided to allow home server raiding then. I left my deed on MRHome when we all got told by Rolf to pack up our stuff and load it onto to the new Ships and we all did the journey from the old servers to the new Independence server. My desires for the Freedom Isles servers is that they NEVER have a PvP flag turned on again. (The Devs of course are at liberty to do what they will with Wurm, and I am at liberty to disagree with them as well. I can still play this game even with not agreeing with the Devs on all things in a similar manner as in real life I can be a citizen of my rl country and not agree with what they are doing ... just as an example).

 

PvP players having deeds on Freedom Isles servers does not bother me in the least. I am not prejudiced against PvP Players. I just want to see the Freedom Isles remain non-PvP in all aspects and that also includes PvP rewards such as HOTA, banners, guardtowers, etc. from PvP Faction/PMK content. I DO support PvP content in Wurm and I DO also support non-PvP servers in Wurm and THAT is why I am of the opinion that the two gameplay styles should remain as separate as possible while still allowing Players the freedom of choice to go back and forth between the different types at their will....

 

I do not however agree that includes allowing Players to bring back their rewards to the non-PvP servers for their deeds and I don't see the items being on Freedom Isles now as a justification to creep forward to allow more of what I was already opposed to.

 

Nor do I agree that just because something is popular that it automatically makes it wise or acceptable, real world or virtual.

[If Wurm Unlimited wasn't confined to STEAM I would most definitely create my own server and open it to all the Players and then, assuming it could be done with mods, I would create the Wurm world with the content I agree with (WU is coded as a STEAM game and I won't participate in STEAM), but alas that possibility the Devs say will never happen and that is why I don't just go to WU]

Edited by geode
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On 25.06.2017 at 8:47 PM, Davih said:

Meh, i'll just talk about the part related to new arts and designs...

I feel there are already WAY too many of them, there were already a lot of them earlier, then like 4 new ones came out in less than a year, so everything is becoming more colorful and random.
Adding even more kingdoms, even on the freedom cluster, would mean having to face an incredible amount of even new ones.

I think that custom designs are already losing its uniqueness, the more they come out, the more the feeling about them (and therefore the market) will become random and dispersive, it's already kinda abused as it its, brining it to freedom would probably be the end of any sense of this, and we would end up livin in a colorful world with dozens of designs, most people would lose count and track of them, and they will become nothing so special : D

I get you, thou i think you're exaggerating a bit. There's pretty much no way that we'd see "dozens" of freedom kingdoms designs. First thing is proposed price of it: 2G. Not everyone can just get a 2G from a pocket to found own kingdom. If it's that easy as you think, why's everybody not wearing a scale set? Only bunch of folks wears Scale because of it's price, that's it. Also consider all conditions to found a PMK and you'll see that we gonna see even less Freedom Kingdoms than for example Scale armored guys. Then consider that some people just wouldn't want to found a PMK because joining such would be more profitable for a person.

 

On 26.06.2017 at 0:01 PM, Mordraug said:

On the full contrary, if you limit designs to half a dozen, they'll be all over the place and not  be unique at all, whereas if there is more creative liberty, many will suck and go ignored as you say while a handful will truly stand out.

 

There are a million types of wristwatches out there, yet Rolex stands out (to oversimplify a bit).

 

What I see here is Chaos demanding its monopoly and Freedom requesting a free market economy regarding kingdom paraphernalia.

 

tip:  Free market economies are way more with the spirit of sandboxing.

I agree, fine designs if won't be sell every now and then will keep high price for a longer time certainly. 

And just like I said before, most PvPer disagree with my idea and I totally understand them. Thou I'd like to see more comments from freedom players as well, because now mostly PvPers taking part in discussion, and both sides PvE and PvP players are part of our Freedom Cluster, so wold be cool to see both sides.

 

On 26.06.2017 at 1:35 PM, geode said:

 

It is what I see as a "gateway" suggestion/decision that may lead to less opposition to PvP flag turned on in Freedom Isles servers in the future... for that is exactly how real world politics advances a change unto the populous that they [the populous] are not in favor of, first suggest a seemingly harmless change that then becomes the foundation for a later change that the politicians wanted from the start... and that tactic has been used MANY times in Wurm over the years on these forums to promote changes.

 

In regards to PMK stuff being allowed on Freedom Isles servers... I have been 100% opposed to this from the moment the Devs allowed it. I am opposed to all of it, including Missions. IMO all of those features belong on Epic and/or Chaos servers for where they were originally designed and where for the Devs said they were intended. I remember when these content features/itmes were itroduced into the game and at that time the Devs said it was to be a "carrot" to lure Players to the PvP servers (which I feel was a great idea, there should be special rewards for PvP, "risk vs. reward"). My opposition to anything PMK on Freedom Isles servers remains because of this original intent as well as other considerations. I myself won't purchase a MR guardtower on a Freedom Isle server even though originally my character was aligned with MR and I still have loyalty to that Faction to some extent (and still is on Epic when I port).

 

I played Wurm before Indy server was established, I played in the "old world" of JKHome and MRHome and Chaos and I was playing when Rolf decided to allow home server raiding then. I left my deed on MRHome when we all got told by Rolf to pack up our stuff and load it onto to the new Ships and we all did the journey from the old servers to the new Independence server. My desires for the Freedom Isles servers is that they NEVER have a PvP flag turned on again. (The Devs of course are at liberty to do what they will with Wurm, and I am at liberty to disagree with them as well. I can still play this game even with not agreeing with the Devs on all things in a similar manner as in real life I can be a citizen of my rl country and not agree with what they are doing ... just as an example).

 

PvP players having deeds on Freedom Isles servers does not bother me in the least. I am not prejudiced against PvP Players. I just want to see the Freedom Isles remain non-PvP in all aspects and that also includes PvP rewards such as HOTA, banners, guardtowers, etc. from PvP Faction/PMK content. I DO support PvP content in Wurm and I DO also support non-PvP servers in Wurm and THAT is why I am of the opinion that the two gameplay styles should remain as separate as possible while still allowing Players the freedom of choice to go back and forth between the different types at their will....

 

I do not however agree that includes allowing Players to bring back their rewards to the non-PvP servers for their deeds and I don't see the items being on Freedom Isles now as a justification to creep forward to allow more of what I was already opposed to.

 

Nor do I agree that just because something is popular that it automatically makes it wise or acceptable, real world or virtual.

[If Wurm Unlimited wasn't confined to STEAM I would most definitely create my own server and open it to all the Players and then, assuming it could be done with mods, I would create the Wurm world with the content I agree with (WU is coded as a STEAM game and I won't participate in STEAM), but alas that possibility the Devs say will never happen and that is why I don't just go to WU]

Sad news is, that regardles of what individual says or agree, or not, you won't stop it. You have PMK banners on freedom all around and you can do nothing about it. But i understand that you simply don't like it. You have to understand on other side, that most of players do like it, as we can see in most of Freedom deeds. I've also played Wurm before Indi, I've also played on Wild I also still have JK blood as you MR. I've also been against many things that we see now.  It's not like I'm getting here now and BOOM GIMME FREEDOM PMK JUST BECAUSE. No, Some time ago I've made a suggestion about random armies/ sieges spawning in random places around servers for players to fight em, to give players more variations and possibilites to use their fighting skills and group together not only against Unigue monsters. I suggested it for good of community and to add something new into our world, new goals, and new entertain. And boom, we have Rifts which are pretty much exactly what I've sent to Retro back then. This is only another suggestion to improve our game, make freedom community to pursue something new. If people won't like it, then it's ok. Thou even my poll isn't really an answer. How many people answered it? 40-50? And how many players we really have in game? As I said, that's only a suggestion in good faith of improving game experience for most of people, great most of them, but not everyone, because it's simply not possible. 

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