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Etherdrifter

Why do I live as a mountain hermit?

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As a lot of people will know, I often encourage ideas that will bring communities closer together; so why am I a mountain hermit?!?

 

Well, as anyone who knows me really well will know, this wasn't always the case.  At one time I lived in very cramped quarters (I've seen larger deeds) with about 15 other people in a series of microdeeds and perimeter houses on release.  So why did I change this?

 

Largely it was because of different visions for the area; myself and some of my neighbours enjoyed the forest we'd all planted together (the red woods of release), some other neighbours wanted their ultra-horse factories and started cutting into the forest.  They did this not out of malice (well much malice, someone griefed a lot of my lovely maple trees) but because they extended their deeds and covered this land (remember, deeds used to have to be square!) and they felt that "well we're paying for the land, so it's now ours".  I can't say it did much for my feeling towards my fellow wurmian

 

The take-away message here is that for any form of close local community to develop you either need to share the ethos of your neighbours (at an absolute level) OR you need to deed everything.

 

The first solution relies on a lot of trust (and assumes that your neighbours will last as long as you do); the second solution is imperfect because it costs a fair bit AND forces you into the role of "landlord" (unless you absolutely trust other people being able to manage permissions for your stuff).  It also deters others from settling unless they trust the landlord (he can kick them out, has the final say on everything etc) so it really becomes "your neighbours need to share your ethos and you will pay for this privilege".

 

Overall this is just not conducive to creating close communities, so people tend to spread out so that they may follow their own vision, but join an alliance for the community factor.  Unless the game offers a clear advantage to living in a certain area/with certain people then it's more advantageous for a player to strike out on their own, deed an area, build half, get bored/join a community, quit/endure.

 

There have been some interesting suggestions in the form of "subdeeds" (ability to manage permissions for specific groups of tiles) which is a nice notion.  This would take some pressure off a "landlord", but the tenants still have the fear of "my home could be gone tomorrow if I upset this guy/gal".  There have also been ideas that reduce perimeters (allowing close communities of microdeeds to form) which is also a nice idea (and it makes CC more money for less taken land....).

 

Living on a mountain I have control over my local area (the forest is safe, for now), I have neighbours a short ride away (15 mins) and I am part of my local alliance.  All pros, no cons.

 

This kind of player distribution leads to wurm feeling quite empty though (ridden across half of Xanadu many times without a SINGLE person coming up in local), I can understand why this is so.

 

So that's my thoughts on the matter, what sort of features do you think would either reduce the disadvantages of living in close communities (either on the same deed, or nearby other deeds) or increase the advantages of doing so?


TL;DR The game encourages hermiting as there are few advantages to living near others and a lot of disadvantages to doing so.  How fix?

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YOLO and never WAALOO 4k AOE

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It's a personal choice to start with this.. or eventual shifting of interests or playstyle.. as in your case you liked playing with others but got burned..

Get better modding so trolls/abusers and griefers wont make people quit. I've seen smaller mod teams slap people and temp mute or ban people harassing others.. 

 

*In your case with the maple forest.... if they had their deed there for a WHILE.. it's questionably.. griefing or targeted at you... and as you called it.. they do pay for the land than... could do with it as they please.

Which should never be the case for small 1-tile-huts like we have over source springs for example... or tiny ***** deeds around bigger ones.. where nobody ever plays.. but pisses active players.. crippling their dreams to expand.. waiting for that little one to disband on it's own(usually after year/s).

 

Your mountain little world makes you happy as the land around rarely changes without your knowledge or actions..

Scenery is a plus..

Hunting grounds(with less deeds around.. you'll have more spawns for yourself/if you like that)

Only downside.. is if you travel much to trade or somebody have to come up to your place often.. that's not exactly convenient..

 

Other than that... what fix do you want, I see no problem with your playstyle, it's a result of other interactions.. you've found your solution.

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Four "characteristics" of Wurm off the top of my head that deter it from being more "village" friendly:

 

1.) Wurm attracts people who tend to see things differently than the masses, and that all by itself breeds contention ingame because we all have our guard up and tend not to trust others as easily as the masses do. Those who ARE community minded usually end up on the PvP servers and that leaves the hermits on mountain tops on the non-PvP servers.

 

2.) Wurm/CodeClub as it is structured (in regards to how it makes money on deeds and premium charges) would lose money if we all learned how to "play nice and join together"; CodeClub makes more money the way it is right now (prove me wrong if you can... "hermitism" encourages altism and "one player villages").

 

3.) Wurm as it is structured pits most players against all others in the economy; e.g. If my village mate just made money almost always I did NOT. Most want to make money, not just be a worker/slave for others so the other guy can make money.

 

4.) Wurm fosters freedom and independence (not intended as a pun) with the options in gameplay and activities available, especially in the areas of deed development/terraforming/design projects. Players want creative control. Players need other Players but often disagree on the details and goals of big projects (see 1.)

 

Probably more reasons.

Edited by geode
speeling
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39 minutes ago, Finnn said:

YOLO and never WAALOO 4k AOE

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It's a personal choice to start with this.. or eventual shifting of interests or playstyle.. as in your case you liked playing with others but got burned..

Get better modding so trolls/abusers and griefers wont make people quit. I've seen smaller mod teams slap people and temp mute or ban people harassing others.. 

 

*In your case with the maple forest.... if they had their deed there for a WHILE.. it's questionably.. griefing or targeted at you... and as you called it.. they do pay for the land than... could do with it as they please.

Which should never be the case for small 1-tile-huts like we have over source springs for example... or tiny ***** deeds around bigger ones.. where nobody ever plays.. but pisses active players.. crippling their dreams to expand.. waiting for that little one to disband on it's own(usually after year/s).

 

Your mountain little world makes you happy as the land around rarely changes without your knowledge or actions..

Scenery is a plus..

Hunting grounds(with less deeds around.. you'll have more spawns for yourself/if you like that)

Only downside.. is if you travel much to trade or somebody have to come up to your place often.. that's not exactly convenient..

 

Other than that... what fix do you want, I see no problem with your playstyle, it's a result of other interactions.. you've found your solution.

This reminded me of Christmas when my parents would put a small present inside a bunch of boxes. :P

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I should go visit you people's deeds. See what my friends have done with their time.

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1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

So that's my thoughts on the matter, what sort of features do you think would either reduce the disadvantages of living in close communities (either on the same deed, or nearby other deeds) or increase the advantages of doing so?


TL;DR The game encourages hermiting as there are few advantages to living near others and a lot of disadvantages to doing so.  How fix?

 

Gotta agree with most of what you said.  But I don't agree that the game should necessarily change to encourage living together, per se, except for the starter towns which have the potential to be hubs for people coming together.  The game already provides the means for people to live together if that's their cup of tea.

 

I think the average Wurmian wants a place to indulge their creative side. (Yes even on pvp, though I think some of them would deny that publicly, lol. They "create" their strongholds with an eye to defeating attempts to invade, while trying to "create" and discover ways to outmaneuver or conquer the strongholds of others).

 

Living with others requires taking into account the wants & needs of others.  Having your own little corner of the world requires none of that, and I think that's a large part of what attracts a lot of us.  While on pvp it may be a necessity for the greater good of your group, that's not the case on pve, nor should it be.

 

So, here is where I again utter my heretical views on portals between the starter towns. I won't go into a long dissertation on why this would be helpful for making it less onerous to gather with others on a more frequent basis, while maintaining our "space," since it's rank heresy in the view of the average Wurmian. (not to mention slightly off topic, lol).  But I really do think this would let us have our cake and eat it too. **/endshamelessplug**    :P   

Edited by Amadee
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Or, you know, a nice "autoride" feature that makes use of the new highway system....

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There are some incentives to live together on pve like sermons and deed bonuses that are easier managed with many people

Edited by Kurson

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6 hours ago, Kurson said:

There are some incentives to live together on pve like sermons and deed bonuses that are easier managed with many people

live? nah man just visit them, participate, then leave. Why leave with a bunch of people when you can just send items through a mailbox thanks to a public mailbox or friendly priest cast. I tried my best to make a deed to bring a bunch of people together but everybody wants something specific.

 

Problem in deed:

Spoiler

In my deed, everybody new wanted a personal house, and i kept stating why it was a terrible idea. i mentioned how it was useless, only good for decoration. I offered public forges, ovens, bulk materials of all kinds, etc. Nothing else was needed to play wurm and there are 2x3 apartments on top my functional buildings to save money on my deed, and everybody had their own 2x3 space to decorate and have private storage. They were bored so i advised them to build a personal home some distance from the deed, and i offered to repair it (or even improve) if needed. my deed is 1s a month, and one of my village members asked me to claim his building like 30 tiles away ;-; and it was litterally a huge house when a big fenced in area with BARELY ANYTHING in it. Everything he had could have fit inside a 1x2 room, and i offered 3x that space. Everybody new who joined left, and only the villagers that i have spent time with before the deed understand how useless a personal home is in the game. 

 

Living with others is a mess, but i do promote the idea of interacting with others, just not living near people. But players can easily do it, I'm interested in it but i feel the need to raise all my important skills to 50-70 first, and get a well functioning priest before i could "have fun"

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Missing incentives. There is no advantage to living in a village as a citizen other than not having to pay upkeep but a lot of disadvantages: I either have limited permissions, can't build freely and there is the constant danger of someone nabbing my stuff if I am not ulrta cautious. There are just no bonuses for living together other than the social component.

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34 minutes ago, Eltaran said:
Spoiler

Missing incentives. There is no advantage to living in a village as a citizen other than not having to pay upkeep but a lot of disadvantages: I either have limited permissions, can't build freely and there is the constant danger of someone nabbing my stuff if I am not ulrta cautious.

There are just no bonuses for living together other than the social component.

It'a online game after all.. that's one of the reasons you're playing it for - to be social, half of the content are the people around you.

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The next deed in the alliance is just a few minutes away by boat or cart...

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17 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

TL;DR The game encourages hermiting as there are few advantages to living near others and a lot of disadvantages to doing so.  How fix?

It is in all Wurm's mechanics. A couple examples:

- a lot of people prefer to breed their own horses, even if they buy breeding pair for the start; the game encourages them to dedicate quite a lot of space for that purpose compared to an average housing area; now if you could get a wild horse and train it to 5speed, average player would need less space in total;

- to sustain an active priest (or worse, its channeling grind), you need huge farms and while they don't have to be right at your door, it must be the most convenient option for the average player. Yes, don't have to farm by yourself, but then somebody else will be doing that for you, so again, "average" needed space grows;

- woodcutting grind; it's true for all Wurm that grinding in it always relies on quantity (of what you're grinding on), and the higher the skill is, the higher the quantity, which with woodcutting and also building wooden houses, bridges, ships and coalpiles leads to crazy amounts of clearcutting. Yes, you can grow your own medium-sized lumber farm or clearcut in remote areas, but again, it must be the most convenient for an average player to cut everything near their deed.

 

In Wurm you will have a hard time trying to live in a house in a big city, doing smithing job on your house's first floor and trading for everything else. The game just doesn't work like this unless you go out of your way to play like that with roleplaying purposes or whatnot.

 

How to fix? Idk. Do you need to?

Edited by zigozag

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Other than the social aspect of living in a village there is also the wide variety of skills others can provide that you might not be able to do and usually at a vastly discounted price (moreso than for alliance mates) if not totally free. 

In our village at least if I need something improving or creating I ask for it and likewise if others need something they will ask me, very rarely does any coin change hands. Though this is also possible from neighbours or alliance mates it's usually not as freely given (as Geode mentioned there is a usually a competitive nature between players to sell their wares.)

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Ooooooooo nice victim whine there Ether......

 

Let's stroll down memory lane, shall we?

 

The case of my deed:

-  Since I didn't know better, I got your "permission" to deed with your whole blather about conditions like "1 maple on every tile", so I deeded past the limits of "your" forest.  I explicitly said I wanted mine mixed forest, hence the reason to move a bit further back from the shore.

 

-  At a point I even remember accepting your help in spreading my trees to help you level forestry, only to wind up having a goddamned maple on every empty tile.  This before the days when you could get grass from tree tiles, by and by.

 

-  You start reeeeee'ing about my deed and The Retreat, and start instructing newbies to build hugging my perimeter which resulted in constant repairing of roads and removal of fences when said newbies left.

 

Then you went after The Retreat when I wouldn't budge:

-  At one point you went as far as to encourage people to bash (back then) protected enclosures, having more newbies build shacks around The Retreat too so that they couldn't complete their expansion plans, and when that didn't work, you degenerated into insulting someone's wife while her husband was away a couple of weeks.

 

All that megalomania over an area dozens of times the size of your min-sized deed.  Pay 1s a month, control about 1g a month through misrepresentation of game mechanics and rules, deceiving newbies as far as to making them do the griefing for you, and utter lack of basic gentlemanly behaviour when that failed.

 

I'm glad your neighbors have at least 15 mins' distance from you.

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Ah?  Ladies and gentlemen, one of my previous neighbours.  No doubt quite a few of you are cringing.

 

The forest was planted by everyone there (do remember, you were one of the last to settle and you were less than welcoming to new members), we all chipped in together; the forest was the community's grand project.  You were told how far the forest was intended to expand and I did ask you if you wanted me to plug the gaps and you said yes (you later unplugged them and started cutting into the further forest to stop natural replugging).  We also mixed in walnut and chestnut to the outer edges at your request.

 

I never passed out griefing instructions, random shacks are what happen when you live in an area that every new player on the server passes through (though I did get a warning about you when I created a fresh alt to see what the area looked like).  You joined us and were originally living in Hedge's perimeter weren't you?

 

Enclosure bashing was your thing (apparently) for driving new players off, not mine.  I did have the flower garden you folks sealed off re-opened though, it was only walled to protect the oaks from a mysterious griefer who cut every oak on release.

 

The main issue was that you and the folks of the retreat deeded last and then wanted to wall off certain areas to keep them impassable and you also pushed very hard for new folks not to join us (threatening to block roads (and resources) if this was not done).  The constant expanding into the cleared and replanted forest was just the icing on the cake.

 

From what *I* heard not many of the former residents could stomach being your neighbour for too long and most had something "nice" to say about it.  They also used the words "megalomania" and "griefer" ;)

 

Edit:  No, maybe I am misrepresenting the past a little.  Ardraug joined us late in the community's lifetime and we were an OPEN community.  This meant that anyone who wanted to join and agreed to abide by our rules (keep it small, preserve the forest) could, they either deeded their own plot on the edge of the cluster, or they joined my deed (upkeep was 2s actually since the population was over 20) to use as a respawn and set up shop somewhere in the forest as a free player.    Ardruag considered settling anyone near him to be griefing, even though he was informed that this would happen before he deeded (he actually deeded with Hedge's (his immediate neighbour) permission, not mine) and he raised hell when we settled new players near his lands (we were a very dense community and there was little or no land between deeds).

Edited by Etherdrifter

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Projection doesn't suit you, mon ami.  Or referring to a lady as a "horsef---er".

 

As for roads, they've been modified over time but the original highway connection past Equine Outlet was The Retreat and myself mostly.

 

Besides, I state again, you were the one "giving people permission" to deed before they found out you had no right to decide that, and demanding that we only have maples on our deeds, a small house, and the two horses needed for our (pre-wagon) carts, point clearly proven by your complaints about "horse factories".

 

There was quite the celebration in the area after you left for Xanadu, and that's when I gleefully took an axe to your maples for hours.. which by the way didn't really dent them at all.

 

*Edit:  And if not catering to the whims of an androgynous-sounding kid who wants me to pay for a game and only be allowed to play how said kid demands makes me a megalomaniac.... GUILTY AS CHARGED! 

Edited by Mordraug

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Though come to think of it, my favorite one of your antics was calling yourself the "head engineer" or some such nonsense for the Tarawick Canal (because no one else had thought of making a canal there, of course), sitting down to make a million healing covers "to raise alchemy for concrete", then vanishing off while leaving the whole affair to Tarator and anyone willing to help.

 

Anyhoo, off to work.  You know, that thing people do to afford more than 1s a month if they want to control more than 33x33?

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4 hours ago, Mordraug said:

Though come to think of it, my favorite one of your antics was calling yourself the "head engineer" or some such nonsense for the Tarawick Canal (because no one else had thought of making a canal there, of course), sitting down to make a million healing covers "to raise alchemy for concrete", then vanishing off while leaving the whole affair to Tarator and anyone willing to help.

 
2

 

*Whistles and just leaves this here*

That might be because I both designed the canal, led and organised the initial digs (and took part with my alt) and counted out the entrances by running back and forth across a monster infested desert (only to have to change one on the last day due to a deed appearing which led to some hellish opening on the spawn lake side on the site of the old black wolf monestary).

 

I left the project due to a sudden death in the family on the second day of the big digs and suggested the name "Tarawick Tunnel" to Earwicker and Tarator when they picked up the slack (for which myself and no doubt everyone on release is eternally grateful).

 

It was release's first heritage site you know?

Edited by Etherdrifter

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5 hours ago, Fraeya said:

Other than the social aspect of living in a village there is also the wide variety of skills others can provide that you might not be able to do and usually at a vastly discounted price (moreso than for alliance mates) if not totally free. 

In our village at least if I need something improving or creating I ask for it and likewise if others need something they will ask me, very rarely does any coin change hands.

Thats all nice until you have the mind set "Oh i don't need to raise this skill, because others in my town have it" and then that person leaves. Long time ago i was in a difference village and our lvl 90 blacksmith left because corn saccing was nerfed. Everybody was running around like headless chickens with 30 blacksmithing :(. But then again, thats our fault for establishing the roles lol

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Neighbors are afull, the one neighbor I like, lives across a big body of water and sporadically shows up in local.

The rest of the neighbors I ignore as much as I can (hardly see them, despite being surrounded).

 

As for the forest... comunal off-deed space, if you can agree on your vision with your neighbors its a nice thing. But I have to say that if I deed a spot, and you complain that I cut the trees on my deed, I can tell you right now my inmediate reaction would be to tell you to f*** off.   However, if I turned the forest into a 300 slopes pit of bare stone, that would be something diferent, having the forest not be 100% made of mapples.... Ether, I think you are in the wrong for getting upset over that.

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This sounds like another of those cases where someone wants to 'own' land they aren't willing to pay for, and expect nearby people to do what they want...and cause troubles with them if they don't.

 

What I was told numerous times by people, is that if it's not deeded/perimeter, then nobody actually owns it. (Perimeter is iffy on ownership, but is technically 'protected' land also. GM's will show up to arbitrate disputes in reference to perimeter land.) It's 'free land' to do whatever one pleases. Until someone deeds it. So while one may think they own everything within eye-sight, it's actually not true. It's only the land that is protected via deed (Arguably perimeter).

 

One could make an argument that someone isn't doing 'what the community wants' in an area where a bunch of nature lovers keep their trees, but if they don't pay for it/own the land, it's no fault but theirs when the nature gets destroyed. You're welcome to turn your whole deed from end to end into maple trees, and heck, could probably turn the perimeter also and if someone chopped it...then you have a right to throw a fit. Otherwise, it's being a control freak over an area you're not willing to pay for.

 

Where I'd be more on your side...would be if people were doing stuff like blocking access to things (For example : My place is stuck between two giant mountains, and a bunch of ocean...if someone decided to be a jerk and block the one valley entry up in between, I could see an argument being made that that person was purposely causing troubles for others...). The trees keep growing anyway by themselves. (I've seen them spit sprouts and start a new one, and watched whole areas go from being tree-less to having trees again without player interaction.)

In regards to the OP :


Do I think the permissions system is way too complex/confusing? Yes. There's also the fear that that one time you 'incorrectly' set a permission and someone tears through your deed wiping out half your work/looting/pillaging...and people turn around and blame you for it instead of doing anything about it (Like multiple stories we've read before on these forums.) will become the reason someone leaves.

I used to want to build one of those deeds to train new folks...I originally built my first castle with the intention of having dual kitchens/dual forge areas/double training dummies, double bedrooms and access to the majority of the rest of it for my couple villagers I would take in...with only a single tile room in the back locked up for my goodies...then I found out you couldn't lock specific doors/deny access. (They changed this later apparently...) So my whole plan for that place went up in smoke. 2 floors of a 5x5 castle in.


Later, I tried to build a different concept...with the intention of having the courtyard be a parking space for people, and blocked off two lower floor sections for my own personal use but setup a inn-like room in back...but realized for upper floors they'd have to be only my access also...because there's no trap-doors or something to thwart people climbing up/down stairs, and there also wasn't any indoor ramps for carts. (Still waiting on this...people suggest doing bridges...but that required an outdoors section inside a building. We shouldn't need to build a bridge just to make a ramp.) Eventually that 7x7 castle idea got to about 2 floors and was given up on also.

The only building I ever remotely got close to finishing was a 3x5 3 floor warehouse/shipbuilding facility...and I actually ran into a game 'block' there even and couldn't finish the 4th floor pinnacle of that building...because I didn't have high enough paving to do the last floor. (47 paving...required 50 I think.)

Anyway...I realized I don't trust people as far as I can throw them anyway...so I basically just stay a hermit. I 'teach people the ropes' via PM's/Freedom chat. Tell people useful things here or there. Help as needed. But I'm not 'good with people', so I tend to rub folks 'the wrong way'. Easier to just help from afar.

I did sail for about 2 weeks when I moved to Xan, and tried to join a few people's deeds...but most of them were offering me a tiny hut or a tiny room in their building, and weren't providing much access to things I'd need...like a farming space and horse access. I really needed something close to water, because I was basically living out of a caravel...so I needed to be able to run over to my boat every so often. (Why do people think someone with a caravel would care about their stuff? My caravel was worth more than most of their items.)

 

There is certainly too much paranoia/lack of trust on this game. People are simply afraid of others. (Perhaps rightfully so...) I originally built a cog in the early days with the intention to haul loads for others for a price...but nobody was willing to trust me with their goods...because I didn't have the 'we know this person and trust them' of some of the other bulk people. It's just kind of sad that people have broken others trust so much that people won't give folks a chance.

It's also sad that nothing was done about many of these situations and the people abusing others were allowed to continue doing so. I've heard the stories of nasty people starting an alt, fooling someone for months/years even...waiting for that chance to take something valuable when they drop their guard enough. Why people think losing friendships/reputation is worth a pile of money...I don't know...

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yeah trust is a rare commodity these days .. and a you said rightfully so.. you can just skim through these forums to see all the bad apples this real world economy/fantasy economy crossover generates.. but such is the will of the one almighty Rolf to have a real world value to most if not all items.. and trust is high up there.. as why I live a pretty solitary life style.. otherwise I would pay for things three times ove and over just to get one good deal..we nee a post with all the good deals somebody gets like a fame/and goodwill thread so we can look whos a reputable person to deal with instead of not finding them on the shame one..

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On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 0:18 PM, Etherdrifter said:

The game encourages hermiting as there are few advantages to living near others and a lot of disadvantages to doing so.  How fix?

Nothing needs "fixing" in this regard, nor does the game "encourage hermiting" and more than it encourages living in some sort of "community". The options are there for either Wurm lifestyle with variations in between. I think it is wise even not to deprive the more individualistic players by giving the community minded ones any special privileges otherwise denied to those who choose a more solo lifestyle.

 

Whenever I have seen some vids where the guys want all kinds of special treatment for communities otherwise denied to individuals it always irks me. Merely living within some sort of community or alliance setting already provides obvious benefits by that association. Nothing further of immediate importance needs be done and certainly not any preferential treatment given to them.

 

=Ayes= 

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