Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Retrograde said: Edited June 13, 2017 by JakeRivers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 8 minutes ago, Retrograde said: if you do all your work on a non rare oven, and turn yours rare, you instantly lose all your affinities if you use it. This is not a problem, tell the player to sell off there rare oven, plop the silvers into deed upkeep or by a jetski and build a new non-rare oven. 11 bricks 11 clay and you are back in business. The poll makes no sense and I do not understand why there is a poll for players who are not affected by this are deciding the fate of the players who are using this system. This is a no-brainer, leave the dual-system in place, you already went to the trouble to make it a manual switch to the new system so why decide to remove this after the fact? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 I for one would like to see the affinity determined by the recipe and not the rarity of any ingredient or utensil (or cook, for that matter). Rarity already improves the quality, but when I'm cooking for a certain affinity, would be annoying to get a rare meal that doesn't do what I want. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 One more thought before I go to sleep. The 1.3 cooking update is great, and everyone loves the affinity's from the various meals. But the growing pains of ironing out the bugs and resetting the affinitys from each meal has been very annoying. Here is an idea, take the mystery out of how to cook a meal for a certain affinity. Add a page to the cookbook where you tick off the affinity you want to make a meal for and it will update the known recipes in your cookbook showing you what you need in that meal or drink to get that certain affinity. I think this would make the majority of the player base happy and end having to puzzle through spreadsheets and hit and miss work on how to get that affinity you want. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 50 minutes ago, JakeRivers said: This is not a problem, tell the player to sell off there rare oven, plop the silvers into deed upkeep or by a jetski and build a new non-rare oven. 11 bricks 11 clay and you are back in business. The poll makes no sense and I do not understand why there is a poll for players who are not affected by this are deciding the fate of the players who are using this system. This is a no-brainer, leave the dual-system in place, you already went to the trouble to make it a manual switch to the new system so why decide to remove this after the fact? I'd just like to state that I fully support buying a jetski, those things are fun. But honestly tho, turning ur oven rare doesn't make you lose your work because logic states you can just build another one... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 Okay okay, so it's still not being understood. the initial cooking system had a system that caused an error rounding down to the possible affinities out of all the combinations. With this calculation some affinities could never be achieved, THIS is what the new system fixed, on the new system ALL accounts can get ALL affinities. The fix worked. Another system was how rarity affected the end result, and had players asking for it to be removed, we understood that some wanted it removed so had it based on a poll on the forums, which supported keeping it. With the fix for the affinity bugs, we took the chance to remove rarity affecting affinities, this was not the purpose of the fix, and was a side solution, one that did not work as intended. The only thing that was incorrect was the comment in the patch notes which stated it would not have an effect. As such, and given some may have based the choice on the rarity change instead of the affinity fix we moved it to an ingame poll to allow players to decide once and for all whether rarity affects BOTH systems, or none. We're leaving this up to the players because its the players who are impacted, we're happy with either system as we addressed the bug that caused the biggest headache, this is just a change in design that can work one way or another. TL;DR All players are affected, the fix worked for what it was meant to. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) I don't cook with rare components, so the outcome of this won't affect me (I hope?) but what is the goal of removing this bug? People can use rare components, or not, as they choose, right? I'm feeling like I must be amazingly simple for not seeing the issue here. If things are left as they are right now, what problems does that cause? Edited June 13, 2017 by Delakar 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 22 minutes ago, Delakar said: If things are left as they are right now, what problems does that cause? For rare oven/pans/whatever instead of making food with 10% longer affinities you now have something you can't do anything but sell to someone who's willing to work with the rare system. People that already have rare cookers and have based their affinity recording around it will lose their info they already got. It's basically people with normal ovens "i don't want to learn how to change my meals if i get a rare oven." against people with rare/supreme ovens "i don't want to learn how to change my meals to the normal version." Shouldn't have happened in the first place but whatever, if you care that much about affinities and are upset about losing the info from rares look up how affinity meals work then move all your recorded affinities up a point or two or however far your rares go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 21 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said: For rare oven/pans/whatever instead of making food with 10% longer affinities you now have something you can't do anything but sell to someone who's willing to work with the rare system. People that already have rare cookers and have based their affinity recording around it will lose their info they already got. It's basically people with normal ovens "i don't want to learn how to change my meals if i get a rare oven." against people with rare/supreme ovens "i don't want to learn how to change my meals to the normal version." Shouldn't have happened in the first place but whatever, if you care that much about affinities and are upset about losing the info from rares look up how affinity meals work then move all your recorded affinities up a point or two or however far your rares go. I see, thank you. So the long and short of it is: anyone who has already found affinities while using rare items would loose their work, in favour of anyone in the future who might possibly need to make a new non-rare tool if they accidentally rare something they cook with? That seems ridiculous to be even under consideration. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 39 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said: if you care that much about affinities and are upset about losing the info from rares look up how affinity meals work then move all your recorded affinities up a point or two or however far your rares go. Until someone makes a "cooking for dummies" version, not everyone can work those out. I'm the first to admit I'm far too stupid to understand it. When the forum poll was made it was already far too late to be messing with peoples work, another at this time results in triple the loss. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, SmeJack said: Until someone makes a "cooking for dummies" version, not everyone can work those out. I'm the first to admit I'm far too stupid to understand it. When the forum poll was made it was already far too late to be messing with peoples work, another at this time results in triple the loss. Pretty big spoilers so don't read if you don't want how the meals are made ruined. Affinity numbers, stolen from http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/152361-easy-process-to-make-affinity-food/ , More indepth explanation into how to make any affinity there Spoiler 0 mind 1 body 2 soul 3 body control 4 body stamina 5 body strength 6 mind logic 7 mind speed 8 soul depth 9 soul strength 10 Swords 11 Axes 12 Knives 13 Mauls 14 Clubs 15 Hammers 16 Archery 17 Polearms 18 Tailoring 19 Cooking 20 Smithing 21 Weaponsmithing 22 Armour smithing 23 Misc items 24 Shields 25 Alchemy 26 Nature 27 Toys 28 Fighting 29 Healing 30 Religion 31 Thievery 32 War Machines 33 Farming 34 Papyrusmaking 35 Thatching 36 Gardening 37 Meditating 38 Forestry 39 Rake 40 Scythe 41 Sickle 42 Small axe 43 Mining 44 Digging 45 Pickaxe 46 Shovel 47 Pottery 48 Ropemaking 49 Woodcutting 50 Hatchet 51 Leatherworking 52 cloth tailoring 53 masonry 54 blades smithing 55 weapon heads smithing 56 chain armour smithing 57 plate armour smithing 58 shield smithing 59 Blacksmithing 60 dairy food maiking 61 hot food cooking 62 Baking 63 Beverages 64 Longsword 65 Large maul 66 Medium maul 67 Small maul 68 Warhammer 69 Long spear 70 Halberd 71 Staff 72 Carving knife 73 Butchering knife 74 Stone chisel 75 Huge club 76 Saw 77 Butchering 78 Carpentry 79 Firemaking 80 Tracking 81 Small wooden shield 82 Medium wooden shield 83 Large wooden shield 84 Small metal shield 85 Large metal shield 86 Medium metal shield 87 Large axe 88 Huge axe 89 Shortsword 90 Two Handed Sword 91 Hammer 92 Paving 93 Prospecting 94 Fishing 95 Locksmithing 96 Repairing 97 Coal-Making 98 Milling 99 Metallurgy 100 Natural Substances 101 Jewelry Smithing 102 Fine Carpentry 103 Bowyery 104 Fletching 105 Yoyo 106 Puppeteering 107 Toymaking 108 Weaponless fighting 109 Aggressive fighting 110 Defensive fighting 111 Normal fighting 112 First aid 113 Taunting 114 Shield bashing 115 Milking 116 Preaching 117 Prayer 118 Channeling 119 Exorcism 120 Artifacts 121 Foraging 122 Botanizing 123 Climbing 124 Stone cutting 125 Lock picking 126 Stealing 127 Traps 128 Catapults 129 Animal taming 130 Animal husbandry 131 Short bow 132 Long bow 133 Medium bow 134 Ship building 135 Ballistae 136 Trebuchets 137 turrets Simple explanation of how to update your affinity lists between normal-rare-supreme Spoiler For every level of rarity (Rare oven would be 1 point for example) move your affinities up that many points. For example if you had a turrets affinity meal with a rare frying you'd get a Trebuchets meals with no rare. Turrets with a supreme frying would become a Ballistae and so on. This also works the other way so if you knew you'd get a Trebuchets with a normal frying pan you'd know with a rare frying pan it'd be a turrets. Once you hit the end of the list it wraps around to the other side, so a turrets with a normal would become a mind. Edited June 13, 2017 by Oblivionnreaver 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) Simple only if you didn't use a rare+ fryer to start with Edit: On first thought I was thinking that starting with a rare+ fryer would require you to start over with a normal fryer to determine your own list. Didn't realize all toons match the above list. Edited June 13, 2017 by Pingpong Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 Changing from normal to rare, and rare to normal is exactly the same process, just going a different direction in the list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 Some people just cant do basic math no matter how easy you try to make it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 Here's a simplified account of how I understand it. Poll is to either make a certain change or leave things as they are. Of you vote to leave it as it is, and this passes, nothing changes for the cooking with rare or non-rare differences, they stay as they are. Of you vote to make the offered change, you get: (1) rare cooking containers and cookers (campfires, ovens, etc) will have longer bonus affinity durations for meals/foods they cook than they do now. (2) whether the oven is rare or normal, whether the cooking container is rare or normal won't in the future make any difference for what bonus affinity the foods they create are. Currently using a rare versus a normal make different bonus affinities for what are cooked in it. (3) all those different bonus affinities that come for cooking in a rare will change to the same bonus affinity you get when cooking in a non-rare. Meaning a tomato curry cooked in a rare oven will have the same affinity as one cooked in a normal oven (as in the affinity you currently get for tomato curry in a normal oven). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Personally, all my Independance deed characters' recipe affinities using a frying pan are determined using a rare frying pan, yet I personally have voted for the change so it makes cooking recipes more consistant and easier to understand for the newer players despite all those changes to recipe affinities it'll mean for me. Simplification eliminating an added factor here makes sense to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Tristanc said: (1) rare cooking containers and cookers (campfires, ovens, etc) will have longer bonus affinity durations for meals/foods they cook than they do now. I believe rare cookers already create longer timers for every affinity they produce (before and after a fix), so it is really all about affinity. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, Tristanc said: Here's a simplified account of how I understand it. Poll is to either make a certain change or leave things as they are. Of you vote to leave it as it is, and this passes, nothing changes for the cooking with rare or non-rare differences, they stay as they are. Of you vote to make the offered change, you get: (1) rare cooking containers and cookers (campfires, ovens, etc) will have longer bonus affinity durations for meals/foods they cook than they do now. My understanding differs slightly. No change to cooking containers. ie. rare pans, rare saucers, etc. (does not currently affect type of affinity) Cookers do change to increasing affinity duration under new system, and no longer type of affinity. However, rare container IN rare cooker stacks for longer duration than rare container or rare cooker alone under new system. 4 minutes ago, Tristanc said: (2) whether the oven is rare or normal, whether the cooking container is rare or normal won't in the future make any difference for what bonus affinity the foods they create are. Currently using a rare versus a normal make different bonus affinities for what are cooked in it. Rare cooking container (pan, saucer, etc) currently does not affect the affinity of the meal. It only affects the duration of the affinity you get from a meal. In this link, the word container is crossed out indicating it does not affect which affinity you get, as explained by @Pandalet. 4 minutes ago, Tristanc said: Spoiler (3) all those different bonus affinities that come for cooking in a rare will change to the same bonus affinity you get when cooking in a non-rare. Meaning a tomato curry cooked in a rare oven will have the same affinity as one cooked in a normal oven (as in the affinity you currently get for tomato curry in a normal oven). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Personally, all my Independance deed characters' recipe affinities using a frying pan are determined using a rare frying pan, yet I personally have voted for the change so it makes cooking recipes more consistant and easier to understand for the newer players despite all those changes to recipe affinities it'll mean for me. Simplification eliminating an added factor here makes sense to me. If my understanding is correct, you should not be affected by a change to the new system if you have been using a normal cooker and rare container. 6 hours ago, Retrograde said: Spoiler Okay okay, so it's still not being understood. the initial cooking system had a system that caused an error rounding down to the possible affinities out of all the combinations. With this calculation some affinities could never be achieved, THIS is what the new system fixed, on the new system ALL accounts can get ALL affinities. The fix worked. Another system was how rarity affected the end result, and had players asking for it to be removed, we understood that some wanted it removed so had it based on a poll on the forums, which supported keeping it. With the fix for the affinity bugs, we took the chance to remove rarity affecting affinities, this was not the purpose of the fix, and was a side solution, one that did not work as intended. All due respect, but therein lies the original problem. Why was the bugfix not released to everyone across the board, with no required change to the mechanics if it wasn't actually required? When you say "some players wanted it changed," it makes me believe some players abused their friendships with devs to pressure a particular change more to their liking, at the behest of everyone else. That would make them crappy friends, and I sincerely hope you all have better friends than that However, you guys made the original poll to change it over. You then released it on WU using the new system with no cooker rarity vs. affinity. You then released a bugfix that would strongly impel people to switch over to the new system, or they'd run the risk of not having all affinities. You then created a new poll using a different method... Call me crazy (it's ok), but it sounds to me like you guys want to change the design to the new system with no cooker rarity affecting affinity. So... for the love of all that is FO, just tell me what it is you want and I'll vote that way. No problem, it happens. Can you tell from the database who has unlocked the most rare+ cooker affinities? I'm not one of them If you can tell, offer those players something cool in compensation and push on with what you feel is best going forward. Maybe give them a supreme oven and supreme pan. Sure, they'll have to relearn their affinities, but Supremes! Or give them a larder full of meals with affinity of their choice. Or, offer to wash their wagons weekly with a soft toothbrush... whatever works for them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 Yeah, there are times when Code Club just needs to make choices that are best for the stability of the code, or future of the game and not ask players for input. I love that they take our opinions so seriously - more than any game I've ever played. One of the main reasons I'm always coming back to WO after being away on some other adventure. But If it is better for the code to go one way or the other, just go with it. Obviously one camp or the other will get mad or disappointed, but eventually it will pass. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 33 minutes ago, Wurmhole said: Yeah, there are times when Code Club just needs to make choices that are best for the stability of the code, or future of the game and not ask players for input. I love that they take our opinions so seriously - more than any game I've ever played. One of the main reasons I'm always coming back to WO after being away on some other adventure. But If it is better for the code to go one way or the other, just go with it. Obviously one camp or the other will get mad or disappointed, but eventually it will pass. Yeah, I agree with this. If you're truly worried about upsetting the rare-affinity players with this change, then this probably shouldn't have been brought up at all. If the change is truly better for the code and the game, then take the dive and make the change - just try to make things as painless you can for players affected negatively, if possible. If not, just don't look at the forums for a few days. *ducks* Crowd-sourcing in a group of people who can barely agree which way is north is just going to confuse and delay any process, but the effort is appreciated. =) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 Quote So we've looked into this, and unfortunately it turns out it is a bug, the problem is rarity of container HAS to affect it because it doesnt know who will be eating the meal, someone on the original system or someone on the new system was just reading the bug thread and saw this, isn't it possible to set a flag on the meal based on if the cook has the fix enabled or not? sure it means that you have to make sure you cater to this if you cook to sell or not (which is no different really), but it doesn't harm anyone in the sense of losing things 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, MrGARY said: was just reading the bug thread and saw this, isn't it possible to set a flag on the meal based on if the cook has the fix enabled or not? sure it means that you have to make sure you cater to this if you cook to sell or not (which is no different really), but it doesn't harm anyone in the sense of losing things yeah. I brought this up a couple times and am surprised it isn't gaining traction until now. Essentially turning the status of the players "rarity fix or not" into an invisible ingredient. Edited June 13, 2017 by Wurmhole Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 8 hours ago, SmeJack said: Some people just cant do basic math no matter how easy you try to make it Pshaw! Some of us, like me now that I'm retired, intentionally and religiously abstain from anything to do with multi-tasking, planning, and most especially math. **giggles** 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 I guess my question about the change is for those that have bought food. Will it be like with the old meat system? Where the old meat stayed the same. If you made something out of it and got a food affinity, once old meat was gone you could not recreate? Example: I buy a piece of food that gives me prospecting. It was made in a rare pan. It has the +1 w/e math stuff. If we go with the new change would that prospecting food still be prospecting food once the change hit? (I assume so) or would it magically change to paving food? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 13, 2017 I haven't seen it directly addressed here, but I assume that under the existing rarity system that rare ingredients also change the affinity, correct? Therefore, if I'm happily cooking away based on my affinity list and am lucky enough to get a rare ingredient while preparing the food, it is basically worthless at this time correct? If I actually use it, don't I change the affinity? Or is it easy to just adjust my ingredient list? Under the new proposed system does the no rare impact also include the ingredients themselves? I really couldn't care about the cooker or the pan since as many have pointed out, easy to adjust for that, but what about ingredients? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 14, 2017 It should really have been changed at the first opportunity, when all the other cooking bugs were being ironed out. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites