Wurm Design Philosophy

[Sindusk 2,448]

I was a Wurm Unlimited player for the majority of 2016. I created the Datamining Thread, revealing a vast amount of knowledge and debunking myths for quite some time. I've also created several public and private mods, for both client and server. Finally, I'm also the owner of the Wyvern Reborn server - a reboot of the most populated Wurm Unlimited server for the first year of the game's release.

 

I don't play anymore. I don't mod anymore. I hardly look after my server anymore, to be honest. I've burned out and lost interest. It's not because Wurm is not appealing to me, I really enjoy the game. I have about 3000 hours played. It offers a freedom and intimacy very few games can match these days. The community surrounding the game is incredibly receptive. So why is it that when I try to open the game again and play or mod, I can't bring myself to do it?

 

It's a bit of a rant, but I think it boils down to the progression of the game's development. Over the past year, I've seen the implementation of Rifts (which were not included in Wurm Unlimited, but oh well... it was added), changes to armour and DR, and an overhaul of the cooking system. These are the "main" highlights that I remember from changes made to the game in the past year. While these additions are welcomed and definitely a positive for the game as a whole, I believe that effort would be better spent elsewhere. These changes seem to be focused on maintaining the current community instead of opening up the ability to obtain more players.

 

User Interface

 

The User Interface is far and away the most dated piece of the game, and something that lies at the very heart of the game. You interact with it almost constantly while playing, yet it's design is so dated that a new player would struggle with understanding what's on each menu, much less interact with it. Have you ever noticed the following:

 

• You cannot change the text size, it's pixel-locked and cannot be changed. Players who struggle with reading small text and using high-resolution monitors will struggle to read anything on the screen.
• You cannot "float" all chat boxes, Event and Combat remain locked as tabs next to eachother, both cannot be opened at the same time.
• You cannot create your own chat boxes to filter for specific types of chatter, such as an Alliance + Village + Say + Team tab that shows all of the above.
• Text color is basically un-used throughout the whole UI. It boils down to certain types of messages being green, yellow, or red; rares are blue, and activated item is green. That's about all the color you get.
• New players have a hard time distinguishing the difference between a weapon that's equipped and an item that is activated.

 

I'd like to have you imagine some changes to the User Interface, using other games as a rough example of what the UI could be with a bit of work:

 

Inventory/Container UI:

 

SkyUI from Skyrim

Spoiler

 

Notable item interface differences:

 

• Tabs across the top to sort by item type.
• Item search filter in the top right to find any item you're looking for no matter how many items are cluttering up the container.
• Columns with information that adjust depending on what type of items you're looking at.
• Icons denoting important modifications on items to the right of the name. In the example above, it's a red hand for stealing and yellow star for favorite. Imagine if you could see an icon for each enchant that was placed on an item in Wurm.

 

Chat Box

Default ChatBox from World of Warcraft

Spoiler

 

Notable chat box differences:

 

• Color coded messages to quickly identify where a message is coming from. Green for guild, tan for public channels, white for say, red for yell, blue for party, orange for raid.
• Ability to quickly do a page up, page down, and "down to the bottom" through the buttons on the left.
• Ability to create your own tabs ("p" in the example above) with selections of what type of messages you want to see in that tab.
• Ability to link items, abilities, skills, whatever. Wouldn't it be cool to link that rare hammer you just made to GL chat, only to get 1-upped by another player with a supreme? What about selling items, just link the item instead of having to type out QL, enchants, rarity, etc.

 

Combat Log

My mod for Wurm Unlimited, Better Combat Log, and Combat Metrics for Elder Scrolls Online

Spoiler

 

Notable combat log differences:

 

• Color coding to identify when there's a hit, miss, parry, block, etc - allowing players to get an overview of the fight at a glance instead of having to read every line for information.
• Ability to filter out certain types of messages to only see what you want to see. Don't care about miss/parry/block? Filter them out and you'll only see when damage is dealt or received.
• If desired, this can lead to combat statistics being shown, such as miss % and other factors, so players can further understand what is happening during a fight.

 

Exploration Incentive & Competition

 

Right now, I feel Wurm does a fairly poor job of giving incentive to explore and expand. This is probably more of a personal opinion than a widely accepted view, but hear me out. There's usually very little reason to leave your deed after it's set up properly unless it's to trade or hunt. Many players have adjusted to this and simply play on their deed, accepting that's what's the most effective way to play. I would recommend giving people a reason to explore outward, and potentially expand to claim resources on the fringes. Give players some type of treasure to hunt or mission to do that isn't grinding that next skill as high as possible. This was a concept I tackled mildly on my server, to moderate success.

 

How I did it on Wyvern Reborn:

 

Implementation of the Depth Drill. It functions similar to prospecting, but worked on corners of dirt (or any non-rock surface). It would use your prospecting skill to give you an "analyse" type of output for the ores around the area, as well as the depth to get to rock. This allowed players to "prospect" areas of the map without having to tear up the terrain to get to rock.

 

Next, I implemented a system where any unique that was slain would bless the world with precious ores. 20 moonstone ore veins would be spawned throughout the world at completely random locations. When one was near a settlement, it would say so in area history.

 

 

This created a sense of treasure hunting. When new veins spawned, the owners of the settlements would start to survey the area around their deed, trying to find where the ore had spawned so they could mine to it and reap the rewards. For abandoned settlements, players made a point to check around the perimeter and see if the ore had spawned off the deed, instead of inside. This lead to players moving throughout the map and exploring areas they've never been before.

 

Beyond that, uniques also spawned pillars of faith throughout the world, allowing players to consume them for ~1.00 faith. This was particularly appealing for high-faith players who were looking to push that 90+ faith area without having enough citizens to do sermons. What these systems did, when all combined, was create a way for players to explore, run into other explorers, and be rewarded for their efforts with something that was difficult or impossible to obtain elsewhere.

 

I'd like to see Wurm adopt this type of mentality for future content updates. Implement some risk/reward behavior to encourage players to break the current gameplay pattern that's been established and try something new.

 

TL;DR: I'd like to see an update to the core systems of Wurm as they stand, instead of the current path of adding new content that further reinforces already existing gameplay patterns.

[Niki 2,278]

Hope you don't mind me saying this but, making the game super easy with mods will just makes you less likely to play it again, sounds like you did that. Speaking from experience, when I over modded Skyrim or something I stopped playing it. Not because I didn't find it fun but It becomes boring since you've done everything when the game wasn't meant to be played that way.

 

I think people go overboard with completely removing the tedium which to be honest makes this game great. I wouldn't play Wurm if it was filled with all these instant gratification systems and mods that let you get 100 faith in a day. I still think people miss out the full experience of Wurm when they play Unlimited sadly.

 

Personally however you do make some excellent points so I'm not totally against it. I do think that this game could use some better game play additives added to encourage player growth. I think the main focus should be player retention. Fixing UI, tutorial is in the works apparently. Making systems that make the game easy, well It's hard to balance I think. If you make the game to easy people will quit and if you make it to hard people will quit. 

 

The staff are always looking I think for people that want to help expand the growth of the game, never hurts to pitch. I always think the more people working towards something will ultimately get the job done faster and better.

 

Thanks.

[Keenan 5,539]

If you check the road map Budda posted, numerous news, etc, you'd know that we've had the UI as a priority for a while now. Work on it has already begun.

 

Also a fair point to make is that not all things from Wurm Unlimited will be welcome in Wurm. That's the entire point of WU: To let people do their own thing. Every time someone tries to bring their mods/ideal server from WU to a WO suggestion (which take note: this is the wrong forum for this thread) it usually ends up with old time WO players taking issue with the ideas.

 

Edit Edit: Did you even read this before posting? 

 

[Jaz 2,666]

I'm currently undecided on the UI part. I'm fine with the current one, I understand though that nowadays' player base will see it quite unusable. I hope the new UI will not force me to use the mouse more than the present one, I'm a keyboard guy...

The adventure part is really missing, I always think back with damp eyes to the treasure hunt series of the late years, those events were real fun. The issue is that some concept and system should be tinkered out which can be automatized to not put extra weight to the staff. Human resources are always short. Some ideas which could be fun are knight jousting tournaments, some tracking / chasing missions - all that are NOT mandatory to accomplish to move forward with the game but nice and fun activities.

@Niki, I really fear myself of things being tweaked easier and easier - I've played a few WU servers, some with "easy mode" on, which gave real fun, but on the short run only. The one I enjoyed most was a place where the wilderness was seriously harder and meaner to the player than WO itself with a very nice rework of how mobs work. That place chased me away feeling like a system in alpha phase, world rules and value of my achievements changed harshly and weekly.

This is a very delicate thing to balance out gameplay and content, quite really easy to tilt the bowl too much...

 

 

[Niki 2,278]

42 minutes ago, Jaz said:

I'm currently undecided on the UI part. I'm fine with the current one, I understand though that nowadays' player base will see it quite unusable. I hope the new UI will not force me to use the mouse more than the present one, I'm a keyboard guy...

The adventure part is really missing, I always think back with damp eyes to the treasure hunt series of the late years, those events were real fun. The issue is that some concept and system should be tinkered out which can be automatized to not put extra weight to the staff. Human resources are always short. Some ideas which could be fun are knight jousting tournaments, some tracking / chasing missions - all that are NOT mandatory to accomplish to move forward with the game but nice and fun activities.

@Niki, I really fear myself of things being tweaked easier and easier - I've played a few WU servers, some with "easy mode" on, which gave real fun, but on the short run only. The one I enjoyed most was a place where the wilderness was seriously harder and meaner to the player than WO itself with a very nice rework of how mobs work. That place chased me away feeling like a system in alpha phase, world rules and value of my achievements changed harshly and weekly.

This is a very delicate thing to balance out gameplay and content, quite really easy to tilt the bowl too much...

 

 

Getting people to play a niche game is a challenge outright. This game is very dated nothing hurts from a little polish once in awhile. Getting the game fresh, ultimately makes the game relevant. 

 

Right now new people use the "Status Bar" instead of keybinding. The game doesn't really come with default keybindings, that should probably be looked at.

 

As for updates to help, WU has this treasure chest thing you can find in the world, I wouldn't mind if that was a thing in WO when you go hunting. Nothing game breaking. I want WO to continue being hard, and maybe even harder eventually but I also don't think newer players should face the same challenge I expect. Balance is ultimately the most important thing in any MMO.

[Sindusk 2,448]

1 hour ago, Keenan said:

If you check the road map Budda posted, numerous news, etc, you'd know that we've had the UI as a priority for a while now. Work on it has already begun.

 

Edit Edit: Did you even read this before posting? 

 

I didn't read the roadmap before posting. It's been a while since I've been in touch with the game's development. A recent conversation I had prompted me to post this today moreso than anything. I'm glad that the UI is being prioritized for an update. I feel it's been one of the biggest flaws the game has had since I've started playing. To my knowledge it's hardly changed since the time I first played Wurm Online almost a decade ago.

 

Sorry for not being informed. My post was simply a collection of my thoughts that's been bugging me for a while, and I felt inclined to post them today.

 

1 hour ago, Keenan said:

Also a fair point to make is that not all things from Wurm Unlimited will be welcome in Wurm. That's the entire point of WU: To let people do their own thing. Every time someone tries to bring their mods/ideal server from WU to a WO suggestion (which take note: this is the wrong forum for this thread) it usually ends up with old time WO players taking issue with the ideas.

I believe this point is actually exactly what I'm trying to point out. I'll likely get crucified for saying so, but: the "old time WO players" right now are hindering the growth of the game. They're trying to conserve the vision of how the game was instead of allowing it to grow into something that a larger playerbase can get behind. While it's important to keep your base of players loyal, that loyalty begins to sway away from the game as the population deflates. In my development of the private server, I noticed that several of the players who came from WO would consistently be against certain ideas I had for implementation into the server. From my perspective, their disagreement would be founded more out of "Wurm has been like this and it should remain like this" instead of "Wurm would not benefit from adding this because of that." The Wurm community, especially on the PvP side, yearn for a return to a "golden age" that I was never a part of. They're against anything that would progress the game away from the roots and turn it into something new.

 

For example, I doubt many people would want to have Wurm turn into an open world survival game similar to that of Ark: Survival Evolved or Rust (myself included). However, the current gamer market would love to have a game with the depth of Wurm while in the PvP survival environment that people enjoy today. Just take a look at Steam Charts and you'll see that the top 10 almost always has ARK, H1Z1, and Player Unknown; all survival games that would actually be well suited to the Wurm formula. To draw that audience, it would require a pretty rough pivot in design direction, from new content for players to create into combat updates and incentive for PvP. In the end, though, with a large enough update and a proper video trailer to go along with it, it just might gain enough traction to draw a strong crowd of new players. Paying players who continue to fund the development of the game.

 

That's an extreme example, of course, but hopefully my point comes across. The real question is: will the game development proceed with the current community in mind, or on expanding the game to reach a wider audience?

[Keenan 5,539]

2 minutes ago, Niki said:

Right now new people use the "Status Bar" instead of keybinding. The game doesn't really come with default keybindings, that should probably be looked at.

 

Budda literally mentioned this in a dev conversation today while discussing the new UI he's working on.

 

The UI isn't ready for teasers or anything yet, but it's more than just a wish list of things we'd like to do "when we have time", and one of the guiding points with the UI is to bring Wurm closer to what people expect from a game's interface. You'll likely see a lot of oft-requested features being put into this. Things we couldn't realistically do before, but will be able to now.

 

It's also not about making Wurm "easier to play" as a game is concerned. It's about making Wurm more approachable and easier to learn HOW to play. My own experience with guiding a friend recently left me frustrated with how I had to explain every little oddity.

 

"How do I resize the event window?" Yeah. That took a bit.

 

The UI is also a major blocker in a lot of things we'd like to do in the future.

[Valdor 1,426]

Maybe I am just one of those lucky people who's vision of Wurm is very compatible with the recent developer additions. However, I am more of an opinion that the situation is actualy quite the opposite - the current dev team understands the game very well from its grass roots. To me, update after update add things and balance issues that do not change the feel of Wurm, its mechanics and its hearbeat, but instead complement them and expand them along their original course. This type of development is important for me, because it means the game I came to play is still here and just gets better than better. Wurm is very unique. It has a certain feel, look and playstyle that is almost proprietary in how it comes across. A huge part of Wurm - to me - is how the game feels and how it doesn't conform to most other games out there but sets its own path and sticks to it. It would be very easy to change this game and morph it into a myriad other products. It would be very easy to knock it from its relatively narrow path and forever make it into a different game. The balance required to keep Wurm feel the way it feels as one develops the game is tremendous and that is why I have been continuously supportive of this dev team who not only seems to understand all the above but consistently manages to preserve the feel of Wurm while expanding it.

 

Now, I understand that you are not critcizing Wurm, Sindusk. Far from it. Having written your post, you show that not only do you love the game but are passionate enough about it to suggest ideas. Personally, I would be a litte wary of bringing design elements form other games to Wurm, but there is definitely nothing wrong with pointing them out - the way you do - for the developers to at least consider some ideas. And since - as Keenan pointed out - the UI is something that is receiving developer attention, I am sure your ideas will be well received, if only for consideration. I think that we both can get quite excited about the upcoming UI improvements. If history is any judge, they will be uniquely Wurmian and I have full confidence in this project. I can't wait!

Edited June 1, 2017 by Valdor

[Amadee 1,543]

7 minutes ago, Niki said:

Getting people to play a niche game is a challenge outright.

 

Getting people to play a niche game is, imo, a matter of finding those for whom this particular niche is a fit and reaching out to those people.   Trying to appeal to people who have no interest in this type niche in the first place is like, pardon the expression, p*ssing in the wind.  I don't believe you can "get" people to play a niche game. Those looking for a niche will seek one out. Those who just want the next eye-candy version of what they always play, will not. 

 

I see no point in trying to appeal to the so-called masses. The whole point of playing a niche game in the first place is to play something different. At least that's the way it seems to me.   If I wanted a vanilla game that's just like every other game out there, the internet is clogged with them (almost to the point of absurdity).  As far as I'm concerned, "mainstream" is vastly overrated and something to be avoided, not sought.

 

 

 

[Finnn 3,317]

22 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

The Wurm community, especially on the PvP side, yearn for a return to a "golden age" that I was never a part of. They're against anything that would progress the game away from the roots and turn it into something new.

 

For example, I doubt many people would want to have Wurm turn into an open world survival game similar to that of Ark: Survival Evolved or Rust (myself included). However, the current gamer market would love to have a game with the depth of Wurm while in the PvP survival environment that people enjoy today. Just take a look at Steam Charts and you'll see that the top 10 almost always has ARK, H1Z1, and Player Unknown; all survival games that would actually be well suited to the Wurm formula. To draw that audience, it would require a pretty rough pivot in design direction, from new content for players to create into combat updates and incentive for PvP. In the end, though, with a large enough update and a proper video trailer to go along with it, it just might gain enough traction to draw a strong crowd of new players. Paying players who continue to fund the development of the game.

 

That's an extreme example, of course, but hopefully my point comes across. The real question is: will the game development proceed with the current community in mind, or on expanding the game to reach a wider audience?

Have you seen EPIC and Chaos numbers? PvE population speaks for itself. 'Nobody' wants to pvp, there's competitive and casual gaming.. most players do not want to pvp in wurm.

There's plenty of mini-games and personal challenges which could be added to bring something more fun into the game.. to do on a daily basis/every few hours/etc...

 

I do not think that there should be that big incentive to walking around(and finding things).. if there's anything.. could be bound to deities.. hiding something around..(which is still ...... as I think about it..)

By walking around you already do find rare things, rotting house/deed/valrei stars, random 'rare' tree/bush/plant that is hard to impossible to find near your house/deed, or you're already hunting and killing every creature that you find.

 

I'd never make a priest because of the faith grind *, channeling.. bring it! I ain't doing hippie parties, spawning alt armies for sermons, or calling friends to spam them in local every 3hours.

Getting a full level from a random beam after every unique's death.. is weird, for a game where skill is hard to grind, makes sense for WU QoL etc.. to make people do things and not be bored.. getting back to WO.. or another game.. but official game shouldn't scrap skill's worth for events IMO.

 

29 minutes ago, Keenan said:

It's also not about making Wurm "easier to play" as a game is concerned. It's about making Wurm more approachable and easier to learn HOW to play. My own experience with guiding a friend recently left me frustrated with how I had to explain every little oddity.

"How do I resize the event window?" Yeah. That took a bit.

 Game's pretty easy, failed actions are .. but else it's pretty simple to get started once you know what and how to do it, wiki ingame seems useless half the time... and it's quite often required to open the actual wiki in a browser to see all that you need to know.. like how much ore you need to make that anvil.. recipe window lacks any indication about the weight of the items.. or tooltips with skill/tool-ql and sample chances for success.

Easier to stay immersed into the game if you dont have to alt-tab/dual monitor a website to read about half the crafts you deal with.

[Scribble 57]

The reason no one wants to PVP is because the PVP scene for Wurm is incredibly toxic. This is not a surprise, since this is the case for almost all PVP communities in RPG games. However the problem with Wurm is that the community is so tiny that you can't get away from the toxic people. The moment a promising PVP server opens up, the same toxic trash will instantly flock to it and chase each other off with /pol/ memes and a very, very generous dose of cheats, hacks and glitch/bug abuse. 

 

Not enough PVPing? Pining for the old glory days? Maybe you should stop using tiny tree mods, player/monster ESP hacks and stop yelling alt-right crap at other kingdoms. Maybe you should stop trying to literally inconvenience other players in the most cowardly and infuriating ways "just for the lulz".

 

Wurm's mechanics aren't that bad. People are able to deal with a lot if it means they can have a fun experience, and Wurm is no different.

 

The problem with Wurm PVP is 100% the people.

[Keenan 5,539]

The in-game wiki should be replaced with a browser window for the Wurmpedia, which is a pretty good source of information. Yet another thing waiting on UI and a few other upgrades which should be coming nearly at the same time.

If you find issues with the Wurmpedia, I recommend you reach out to @sEeDliNgSor @Wolfeyso they can arrange to get it corrected, or you could post on the forum for that purpose as well.

 

Going up to PvP, and this is going to be a personal opinion of mine, I think one of the main issues is that we have a few different ideas of what PvP "should be". In my experience on Chaos, you have quite a few older individuals who like the slow and grueling pace of building and raiding fortresses. Yet some would prefer it to be easier and less risky. The real issue I saw is that numbers play quite a bit into who actually wins. There were a few sweet spots, when people were able to turn the odds, but for the most part it was a numbers game. The more people you had show up, the more successful you were going to be. 

 

For me personally, this wasn't very fun after a while. I began to crave something a little less grueling and punishing. Yet the idea of a "lighter" PvP always gets rejected when I talk about it. A PvP where losses aren't felt as hard and yet rewards still matter. It still blows my mind how much has been lost in some of the raids MR carried out against other kingdoms, and likewise how much I saw my friends lose when Macedon got the jump on them. When I say loss, I mean the actual real currency conversion of the items that were lost. I've actually apologized to some folks when I've had the chance to talk to them because I always felt guilty about taking their stuff. Horrible PvP player, right?

 

To me, the final nail for my time in PvP was when individuals decided to hack accounts to take when they couldn't do it via in-game mechanics. PvP isn't dead in Wurm, but the toxicity is a primary reason why I've kept out of the discussions and only assisted in designs when asked. (Reminder: In a developer capacity, I was still voluntary - my paid positions until recent were administration)

 

Can there still be PvP in Wurm? Absolutely. I just don't think it can exist in the same way it has and it must come with stronger account security mechanics, better anti-cheating mechanics, and better tools so GMs can properly remove individuals who seek to ruin the game for others.

 

NOTE: GREEN IS TO MAKE IT INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS THAT THIS IS A PERSONAL OPINION PARAGRAPH. I HOPE THIS HELPS THOSE WHO ARE GENERALLY CONFUSED BY THIS NOTION. THANKS.

 

Now rounding back to "easy" Wurm: I don't mean that the game is hard once you figure it out. I mean improving is the same basic thing 100 different ways. The difficulty is in the skill grind, the quality limitations, and yes the action failures. We still have a heck of a problem with getting players accustomed to all you can do and how you can do it. I know this first hand, not only teaching a friend the game recently, but trying to write wiki pages to describe things. I was reminded of the Permissions page as an example. That page alone took me at least a week of working several hours a day. We need a more intuitive UI design that has the ability to include natural indicators as to what does what, and that's precisely the direction we're heading.

 

[Cista 429]

" I would recommend giving people a reason to explore outward, and potentially expand to claim resources on the fringes."

 

So would I, as I have been begging for the devs to introduce more regionality in this game since I started 4 years ago. But unfortunately the majority of Wurm players are now builders and crafters who want nothing more than to sit in their workshop and hone their skills. So it's too late to develop Wurm in that direction.

 

Remember when people got established on Xanadu and they found out that on this server they didn't have all of the different ores on each deed? All hell broke lose and the devs had to change the distribution of ores asap. And we have exactly the same situation with the never-ending drama threads about creatures on Xanadu not being distributed "fairly".

 

Everything must absolutely be exactly the same everywhere in the game world, while at the same time traveling to admire the deeds of your friends will gradually be made easier and easier until we can finally teleport directly to any spot in the world from inside our workshop, not having to look at any landscapes at all 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Cista

[zigozag 918]

8 hours ago, Keenan said:

Yet the idea of a "lighter" PvP always gets rejected when I talk about it.

You're talking about it to wrong people. I would vote anytime for PvP in style of WoW BC era (because i don't know what happened there in WotLK and next). BGs, Arenas... No loss, just fun and rewards bought with tokens after weeks/months of participation. BGs were so much fun! It would also be perfect testing grounds for any combat changes and rebalances. People will whine about rewards, about no (full) loot, about teleports to the fighting areas, but if you make it fun, they can whine all they want, a lot of people will be enjoying it.

Edited June 2, 2017 by zigozag

[Midas 28]

11 hours ago, Amadee said:

 

Getting people to play a niche game is, imo, a matter of finding those for whom this particular niche is a fit and reaching out to those people.   Trying to appeal to people who have no interest in this type niche in the first place is like, pardon the expression, p*ssing in the wind.  I don't believe you can "get" people to play a niche game. Those looking for a niche will seek one out. Those who just want the next eye-candy version of what they always play, will not. 

 

I see no point in trying to appeal to the so-called masses. The whole point of playing a niche game in the first place is to play something different. At least that's the way it seems to me.   If I wanted a vanilla game that's just like every other game out there, the internet is clogged with them (almost to the point of absurdity).  As far as I'm concerned, "mainstream" is vastly overrated and something to be avoided, not sought.

 

I tend to agree. On the other hand we should keep in mind that a commercial game needs a certain amount of paying players in order to survive. So, the niche must not be too small

 

[Finnn 3,317]

Forcing pvp on pve is going to drive a lot of people away from the game.. for a while, there's going to be a lot of hope.. to get them back, but I am almost certain they'll move to WU pve instead.

There's epic - separated cluster with full loot, etc..;
chaos - full loot, with control over item loss etc. as in.. you have the choice to go there from freedom cluster with just what you're willing to lose - still no interest.

 

Main playerbase of the game is casuals who do not seek challenges or to compete aggressively with others in any way.. Rifts are maybe the only challenge where you do fight to get some numbers and there's a chart. Oversupplying and underbidding prices on the market field.. gets you a bad name or looks your way..

World's big.. but not that big, there are no different channels or 50-100 other alliances you're able to join, you have to be somewhat social and behave to play and have fun. That is one of the most interesting parts of the game, also it's downfall. Not that uncommon to read about epic dramas with neighboring deeds and their problems.. on the other hand it's also common to see people working together over some project, alliance bridges, tunnels, etc. Whatever direction the game takes.. social aspects should be taken into account.
Take any triple A company's game.. you'll have fun for few weeks, a month or 2.. than you're bored.. have friends to play that game with, you'll just keep playing it for years.

[Reylaark 1,100]

4 hours ago, zigozag said:

You're talking about it to wrong people. I would vote anytime for PvP in style of WoW BC era (because i don't know what happened there in WotLK and next). BGs, Arenas... No loss, just fun and rewards bought with tokens after weeks/months of participation. BGs were so much fun! It would also be perfect testing grounds for any combat changes and rebalances. People will whine about rewards, about no (full) loot, about teleports to the fighting areas, but if you make it fun, they can whine all they want, a lot of people will be enjoying it.

 

Agreed.  Whole-heartedly.  I always had a great time in the WoW BG's.  I wasn't great, by a long shot, but there were many opportunities to make a difference.  Working as a team went a long way, even with total strangers.  I don't miss the twinked out rogues though

 

I mess around a bit in Gloria Victis sometimes.  I like the pvp there.  It's a lot like Mount & Blade, but persistent.  If I could experience that in Wurm, that would be awesome!

 

@KeenanThe loss and setbacks is indeed un-fun.  Part of the reason I don't play on a pvp server is I didn't like logging in to find so much destroyed and generally messed up while I was away.  I would wind up spending most of my time in-game cleaning up after other people.  The challenge of building something impenetrable can be fun, but playing nanny to people who just wait until you log off isn't really worth my time.  That's why I like Zig's post, that's why I like pvp in Gloria Victis, but not in Wurm.

I don't know much about the personal toxicity many speak of.  It seems present in every pvp game though.  I keep all chats closed as best I can for that reason, aside from my immediate team for coordination.

I wonder to what extent some "safe cities" run by GM overlords would be possible.  A place I can rent a plot, build a very modest small house to call my own to rest at night.  Some training grounds to get up to speed, etc.  A bustling city, from which I can join patrols.  Not to raid others, but to aid those being raided by unreasonable numbers, perhaps?  Not sure, just some thoughts.

[Amadee 1,543]

15 hours ago, Keenan said:

Going up to PvP, and this is going to be a personal opinion of mine, I think one of the main issues is that we have a few different ideas of what PvP "should be". In my experience on Chaos, you have quite a few older individuals who like the slow and grueling pace of building and raiding fortresses. Yet some would prefer it to be easier and less risky. The real issue I saw is that numbers play quite a bit into who actually wins. There were a few sweet spots, when people were able to turn the odds, but for the most part it was a numbers game. The more people you had show up, the more successful you were going to be. 

 

For me personally, this wasn't very fun after a while. I began to crave something a little less grueling and punishing. Yet the idea of a "lighter" PvP always gets rejected when I talk about it. A PvP where losses aren't felt as hard and yet rewards still matter. It still blows my mind how much has been lost in some of the raids MR carried out against other kingdoms, and likewise how much I saw my friends lose when Macedon got the jump on them. When I say loss, I mean the actual real currency conversion of the items that were lost. I've actually apologized to some folks when I've had the chance to talk to them because I always felt guilty about taking their stuff. Horrible PvP player, right?

 

To me, the final nail for my time in PvP was when individuals decided to hack accounts to take when they couldn't do it via in-game mechanics. PvP isn't dead in Wurm, but the toxicity is a primary reason why I've kept out of the discussions and only assisted in designs when asked. (Reminder: In a developer capacity, I was still voluntary - my paid positions until recent were administration)

 

Can there still be PvP in Wurm? Absolutely. I just don't think it can exist in the same way it has and it must come with stronger account security mechanics, better anti-cheating mechanics, and better tools so GMs can properly remove individuals who seek to ruin the game for others.

 

NOTE: GREEN IS TO MAKE IT INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS THAT THIS IS A PERSONAL OPINION PARAGRAPH. I HOPE THIS HELPS THOSE WHO ARE GENERALLY CONFUSED BY THIS NOTION. THANKS.

 

I tend to agree. As a general rule I don't comment on pvp since I don't play pvp in Wurm, but on the subject of 'why' I don't pvp in Wurm I feel I can comment on that.  And as a disclaimer, I'm not saying that I want Wurm pvp changed.  I'm happy where I am on pve.  Just commenting on the subject in general as I feel that my viewpoint on it may not be completely isolated.

 

So, on to my entirely biased 2 coppers.  Firstly I'm not an aggressive person by nature and tend to feel bad for the other party if I win.  So I'm not exactly a good candidate for pvp to begin with. hehe.  With that said, (and I can't speak for others), I know what prevents me from ever considering pvp in Wurm, and that's the destruction, looting, and draining. And then to add insult to injury, these things all have real world money value.  It's just too vicious for my blood.  In Wurm, I'd be feeling bad for anyone I beat, (I'm not comfortable with causing distress to others, destroying their work, and taking their stuff), & I'd be feeling even worse if I lost.  lol.  Either way, not fun for me. 

 

There is only one game where I found pvp to actually be fun, and that was Matrix Online. (Yes, yes, I'm a carebear by nature, hehe).  I played on the pvp server because my friends were there. But it was no looting and no penalties, so I didn't have to feel like I was actually harming a player rather than a "toon" if I won, and the only thing hurt if I lost was a bit of dignity for the day.    But contrary to what I hear from a lot of pvpers about loot and risk vs reward and all that, in Matrix without loot there was still plenty of competition between factions and bragging rights, controlling a hard line, etc. (I fondly remember one particular cat & mouse game when my character was still low level, being chased by a couple of high level enemy characters roof-top to roof-top.  lol. Good times)  In short, for me it was just plain, honest fun without all the drama and with zero harm to the player behind the "toon."  And there was a clear distinction between the character and the player behind the character. Not so much hatred, with the exception of the occasional bad loser.  I know I'm a tiny minority with this viewpoint though so take it with a grain of salt.

 

As I said, I speak for myself, but if the desire to increase pvp in Wurm is a serious one, I'd say ask pve folks why they don't pvp in Wurm and see what prevents the majority from ever even trying it.  Periodically someone posts about wanting a new pvp server.  If that ever happened, I really think that it should be totally different from the existing ones to maybe appeal to those who aren't so hard core. But I also fully understand the desire of those who love Wurm pvp to want to keep what they have, so I'd be the last person to ever advocate for sweeping changes for everyone.  That wouldn't be fair to them.

[Finnn 3,317]

14 minutes ago, Amadee said:

As I said, I speak for myself, but if the desire to increase pvp in Wurm is a serious one, I'd say ask pve folks why they don't pvp in Wurm and see what prevents the majority from ever even trying it.  Periodically someone posts about wanting a new pvp server.  If that ever happened, I really think that it should be totally different from the existing ones to maybe appeal to those who aren't so hard core. But I also fully understand the desire of those who love Wurm pvp to want to keep what they have, so I'd be the last person to ever advocate for sweeping changes for everyone.  That wouldn't be fair to them.

 

Often reply to such suggestions is... that "toxicity of old server/s is going to follow the new ones(old pvp ganks moving the new map or after a map reset) and same problems are bound to repeat."

 

Pvpers need to figure what drives other people away and find middle ground, obviously there are still people that wont like to try pvp even if they could, take rifts for example.. some never bother to go, other even if they want to... often cant afford to .. as the times they happen.

 

How about a new thread with a poll and "intrusive" email asking you to take part of it.. speaking your mind on the subject.. easier to pick a road when you know what to expect.

 

I can't suggest a solution for pvp maps, doubt most pvpers want anything to change.. even tho they crave new kills for loots.

 

[NeeNee 855]

I'm glad the UI is being worked on. I have no problems with it, but it seems to be A Thing, so yay! I'm glad Wurm is niche-y, and I hope the improvements will lure more no-need-for-immediate-results types in. 

[Ayes 3,715]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 2:02 PM, Sindusk said:

Right now, I feel Wurm does a fairly poor job of giving incentive to explore and expand. This is probably more of a personal opinion than a widely accepted view, but hear me out. There's usually very little reason to leave your deed after it's set up properly unless it's to trade or hunt. Many players have adjusted to this and simply play on their deed, accepting that's what's the most effective way to play. I would recommend giving people a reason to explore outward, and potentially expand to claim resources on the fringes. Give players some type of treasure to hunt or mission to do that isn't grinding that next skill as high as possible.

 

There is nothing that really could be added to the game to give me "incentive" to stop enjoying what I am doing working around my deed and the very close local area to it. Nothing, other than adding some mechanic that would in effect *force* me to do this because some Dev or player might think that I *must* do this, "explore". Absolutely not necessary to do and holds no attraction to a fair number of players, I would say.

 

There are those who enjoy "exploring" or traveling to places far from their deeds to obtain some elusive objects. This has already been in game for years. So called "exploring" is just player preference. Some will do it, some will not. You can't change what is inherent within what players enjoy about this game. That is part of their personality and the flaw in your attempt to shape them into something other than what they are. If forced (encouraged by restrictive game mechanics) to "explore" players will just explore other games that don't force them to do this.

 

There are many things in this game that I avoid doing just because of the tedium and excessive time sinks involved. I leave these to players who believe that time invested makes them worthwhile, traveling any distance away from my deed being one of them, as well as creating certain objects that fall under this concept. Wurm offers a lot of variety to those who appreciate it and this variety of sandbox playstyle is strongpoint and allure. All this other fancification you suggest may draw some new players, so in that respect it could be worthwhile according to Dev time available. I understand that the Devs are working on a new UI anyway but personally I care little about that. To each their own, they say...

 

=Ayes=

[Sindusk 2,448]

20 hours ago, Ayes said:

There is nothing that really could be added to the game to give me "incentive" to stop enjoying what I am doing working around my deed and the very close local area to it. Nothing, other than adding some mechanic that would in effect *force* me to do this because some Dev or player might think that I *must* do this, "explore". Absolutely not necessary to do and holds no attraction to a fair number of players, I would say.

The intended goal wouldn't be to force it upon players, but instead encourage it. As it stands, there's little to no reason to explore outside of one's deed. My point is that there should be some incentive to leave the deed, not none. Players who do not want to take part in that, or the incentive isn't high enough to alter their play patterns, could continue without being affected.

 

At the end of the day, players are almost always doing something that progresses their wealth. If there was an incentive added, I'd hope it was something capable of trading, so players who do not enjoy exploration could still obtain whatever it was by simply trading an explorer for it. Anything that encourages trade between players is a positive in my eyes.

[Kelody 333]

On 6/1/2017 at 4:17 PM, Sindusk said:

For example, I doubt many people would want to have Wurm turn into an open world survival game similar to that of Ark: Survival Evolved or Rust (myself included).

 

I would love for a PvE based crafting/building/survival game. Wurm is nice but it a bit easy once you get a mount and some decent skills/weapons/tools. I have not tried any of the listed games because they all encourage the player behaviors that I hate.

 

On 6/1/2017 at 7:23 PM, Scribble said:

The reason no one wants to PVP is because the PVP scene for Wurm is incredibly toxic

 

The pvp community in every game is incredibly toxic. It is hardly limited to Wurm. Wurm just forces people to work with others more than many other games and deal with other toxic players.

 

Scripted events, mobs working together, far more spawns in wilderness type areas would be great. The rifts are a good start, but are very short lived. I remember from years ago Wurm being dangerous. I don't know what if anything changed besides my skills and access to horses, but I find travel relatively safe, even trolls can just run from.

[Finnn 3,317]

Games listed above are fast paced, crafting is more fun, easy, less complex, takes significantly less time etc...

(loss or gain of items in these games takes minutes, not hours/days/weeks), these games are easier to compare to WU than WO, and you tried to do similar things on WU server

 

Wurm progress takes time.. and that is usually what you like in the end, the finished product. It's not as fun while you work on something, you just love the way you were before finishing your own small challenge and the place where you are after you've finished it.(it's not that important or big accomplishment.. but the work it involves somehow makes it special)

IMO what happens when you drop goodies at explorers is.. giving them something valuable.. while others do not exactly have as valuable things.. as market is messed.. there's so much supply and no demand; what such events or finds for the explorers does.. is putting them in a sweet spot.. where crafters/casters of other goods are in not so good situation to barter. Plus... maybe in WU there aren't that many decaying old deeds etc... random nice things to find.. but in WO there's all kinds of things left around the map, from other players... plenty of somewhat valuable things. In a way what you suggested.. is already in the game.. for years.

[Talohan 129]

Implementation of the Depth Drill. It functions similar to prospecting, but worked on corners of dirt (or any non-rock surface). It would use your prospecting skill to give you an "analyse" type of output for the ores around the area, as well as the depth to get to rock. This allowed players to "prospect" areas of the map without having to tear up the terrain to get to rock.

plus one these idea!