Retrograde

Catapult and Trebuchet testing!

104 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

The difficulty of the new catapulting system seems to be way too high versus what it was prior to the change.

 

Concerns are that repairing will be very easy, as the calculations and hit-and-miss methods will need to be re-done for each and every location. Previously, the winch would be roughly the same +- 1, meaning the transition from location to location was simple.

 

Not only that, but I have concerns that different people operating catapults will have completely different winches due to skill and the actual catapult ql.

 

Can I suggest an "analyse" or "test" feature on the catapult/treb? One simply loads the ammo, and winches the preferred amount and hits "analyse". A timer (dependant on catapulting skill and ql and even difficulty of shot) will count down and when it finishes could say "You analyse the shot, and come to the conclusion you will hit x at a distance of y tiles".

 

This will certainly cut down on the hit and miss phase of catapulting without the need to reload and rewinch, and will definitely add QOL to catapulting.

 

Thoughts?

Edited by Redd
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skill and ql do not affect the range, they do affect how close to the angle you set you get, low skill might miss by a bit, but with decent skill your shots will land.

 

Angle and winches affect the range

 

Range can be determined by examining the catapult.

 

The test server has all of this.

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Posted (edited)

trebs are very nice now, but catapults just seem too hard to get setup. 

I don't think repairing needs to be nerfed as when testing the treb/ram they was battering the long houses at good speed.

Cata remains the one to avoid it seems? Atleast for me/Darklords who both found it the harder / time costing one to use

                        

Edited by _Teal_

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Cant bash the new wall types, tested on sandstone and marble

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Just wondering if you intend to leave test up still? Still some more post launch testing I would like to attempt that would be impossible on live.

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Yeah everything is still on test, that doesn't really stop.

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Budda, could you add the new materials into the "basic mats setup" pls :D

 

and maybe some Lamps too? would make it easyer to test underground stuff.

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If you put a Siege Shield behinde a door like in this pic:

 

Z70QTTj.jpg

 

and you start bashing with a "ram", the siege shield take dmg before and the door wall take 0 dmg. In other words, the siege shield get destroy before the wall.

 

After 3 hits with the "ram" on the "S. shield" it has this dmg:

[11:52:20] A movable wall made from planks, this will block most arrows and also provide some protection against hot oil. It is made from unknown. It can not be improved. Ql: 71.082794, Dam: 97.2229.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

[05:15:40] You managed to hit and Warrior's shack and Warrior's shack.
Doubles the name of same building, no other building close to it.

----------------------

Maybe possible to hit arches ground floor in the middle if possible
7b84a1fb6de15ef8ce685150a9807809.jpg

 

Can you make it hit these middle sections between the walls and choose 1 random left or

right(or maybe both) to hit when doing this so cave arches ground floor can be removed without bashing required.


----------------------

Arches seems to be much easier to hit with the catapult not sure if im using better angles

from learning to use it or if you fixed it more but it seems doable though I only tested

ground floors ill do second floors tomorrow didn't have time to build a second floor and

finish my testing list for the night more on second floor arches tomorrow hopefully.

----------------------


90 body strength does
[05:37:08] QL=81.82741, dam=1.7110037
damage to a arch per bash, might be wroth making bashing walls underground deal 2x+ damage

as rams do to help counteract underground building but as I test later might need all

underground stuff to be 10x ish bash damage to not make it exploitable ill update you more on

underground issues when I get deeper into the testing just some initial thoughts.

----------------------


Medium type slopes from my last post are now able to be hit unlike before this seems fixed

tho I plan to test more slope variations other than 30~ slope but it seems like the fix

from last patch made it work proper.
[05:38:37] [TEST] Skillcheck: 80.81556701660156, Total Damage: 12.29143(same ram, same

position as last post)

----------------------

 

Cant spawn iron ore and other ores/lumps alone and is requirment for lots of items

(including ram heads) need to spawn in hundreds of useless items in the raw material spawn

to get them and makes tons of useless spam items on the ground to get a few ores from it.


----------------------


Can't find tar in any spawns(am I missed it?) to light lanterns underground to help with

testing there.

 

----------------------

[06:06:12] You cannot fire the small catapult below ground.
Makes the upto 8 story underground house limit require bashing above story 1 to remove

building can we get some kinda of catapulting working in mines where if the arc hit the

ceiling it shatters but if you make it a low enough arch it can hit buildings, or 10x bash

bonus for buildings walls of any kinda in mines so its not impossible to remove mine

buildings above the first floor without hours of basing for small sections?

----------------------


90ql rock shards 80kg shots crumble 100% of the time seems silly for being so high quality

that they always shatter.

----------------------


In this picture, the 3 arches took damage from a shot(seems fixed on arches ground floor) but the 3

wall stone walls in the middle of all 3 arches took no damage from first shots they dont

seem to take splash damage or damage period after removed even tho it says it still hits 4

walls and deals no damage.
291bc636bf85ed87b4794645299360e6.jpg


663741210a7ef01b117357a694ca1d27.png

 

(below text is after the arches got hit and removed/destroyed)
[06:24:13] [TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 7.4318347, damage:

20.0 total things hit: 4. Total distance: 30.582075m or 7.645519 tiles.
I am unable to find a single additional wall with damage on it though it is hitting the

fences but it will not deal damage to them and I cannot find 1 tile damaged in the entire

building even tho it tells me 4 items where hit after several shots past removing the arches and what I can tell hitting the fence in the middle still.


----------------------


Invisible wall stop me from moving at the place this picture is taken
1f21c598b93f1a36db681b31e43d2262.jpg

can not move forward from here

relog makes a second shield appear that was invisible before the relog which make sence why I couldn't move because the server knew this was here even though the client didn't or the client knew it existed but wouldn't render it before a relog.
48cff5d9c138e8cd4437b6f8f8b03377.jpg

(Big thanks to Rocky for crafting that invisible barrier that led to this discovery)


----------------------


siege walls get hit from my vision in this placement when a ram is infront of it

[05:28:30] You swing the beam on the battering ram forward and it hits a siege wall.
[05:28:30] [TEST] Skillcheck: 75.3454360961914, Total Damage: 12.914708
[05:29:22] A movable wall made from planks, this will block most arrows and also provide

some protection against hot oil. It is made from unknown. It can not be improved. Ql:

77.63215, Dam: 12.914708. The name of the owner, Warrior, has been etched on the bottom.

Reason I reposted the above post is I saw the shied wall 1 tile south of where rocky saw it in the above post this is where I saw the wall when he saw it behind the door
1f21c598b93f1a36db681b31e43d2262.jpg

 

 

after a relog I saw it in the proper position 1 tile north which makes sence why it seemed the catapult was hitting behind it the shield was 1 tile milplaced for me after build the above bug of it hitting siege walls behind the door still exists but siege walls seem to have some serious position and rendering bugs existing which makes them display a tile away from the real position or just no appear at all

(Big thanks to Rocky for helping me find this issue on top of the issue he found with it ignoring the door for the barrier behind it.)
fe63daf282660f0291874bd314e73de2.jpg

(moved to proper place in front of ram after a relog before it showed it to me behind the ram a tile south).

 

 

Edited by Darklords
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Arches can't easily be added to the checks for rams as they use the same checks as most blocking code on the server (movement, reaching through walls, firing through walls etc). If bashing and catas isn't enough I'll sit down and try and figure something out, but it'll be much faster to either up bash damage or tweak the splash radius of catapults first. I did tweak how the angle variance from the skillcheck on catapults works, which makes the variance a lot smaller (max 1-2 tiles different at high power and angle - angle of around 45 has low variance on its own anyway because the difference between 30 degrees and 45 degrees is not much), so that might be playing into how accurate catapulting arches feels. I'm open to upping the splash radius if it is too low at the moment though.

 

For arches underground they have the 3x bonus to bashing, as well as the normal 1.5x bonus for bashing underground that all walls have (this wasn't changed, I don't think it was ever 10x), if the 1.5x bonus is a bit small we can up that some - though that'll be for bashing only. Rams have their own 2x modifier for underground, still capped at 20 damage max.

 

Catapults underground I'll likely be playing with in the coming weeks to see if I can get it working reliably - watch this space.

 

Will try trick Retro into spawning the new resources and some lamps for you lot.

 

Crumbling shots depend fully on the damage multiplier they are dealing. So if they hit the 20 damage cap every time, they will likely crumble. I'd suggest testing out different qualities and weights so you're not wasting 80kg each time - with the damage modifier also being dependant on final velocity you may need to rely on weight less than previously, so a 40kg or 60kg chunk of rock shards might be enough to hit the 20 cap. I'll look at changing this though so if they hit the 20 damage cap their damage is also capped at some point.

 

Will double check the fence splash damage, they might only be taking from the center point of the fences at the moment instead of the full length. Can you try firing at a point that'll land near the center of the fence to see if it takes damage then?

 

Thanks for the help Darklords and Rocky.

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Posted (edited)

Didnt have more than a few hours tonight but I tried to follow up on the fences issue more since that seems a vital issue to be fixed and I wanted to provide some more info on it

 

Winches below at 90 skills with a 86ql cata

 

With 90 skills and a 86ql cata I didn't not fail 1 time to be within .1 of the same range so all results should be extremely close together

The small catapult will now throw approximately 9 tiles with 20 winches and an angle of around 25.0 degrees.
https://i.gyazo.com/567b8bc5c2f1dd1cf1dee60a9c66f00d.mp4

 

 


(FIRST SHOT RESULTS)

It sounds as though the rock shards hit 4 walls, 6 floors, an item, and nothing else.
You managed to hit and Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack and Warrior's shack.

The rock shards crumbles to dust as it lands.

[TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 7.41704, damage: 20.0 total things hit: 11. Total distance: 30.550695m or 7.637674 tiles.

78de95cd1efb915ff85d9fc5076c674f.jpg


(6 floors where hit as it says, 4 walls where hit it says but I found 6 walls down after the next picture but it did damage to 2 fences and did not mention them, the first shot was the only shot I managed to do any damage to a fence was a super small splash at .1 damage)(Was tired and forgot to add in first 2 pictures but the first floor inner arches where removed along with the lower ones as the last picture points out apologies)

 

 

(SHOT THAT FINISHED OFF 4 ARCHES BEING HIT)
It sounds as though the rock shards hit 4 walls, an item, and nothing else.

You managed to hit and Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack and Warrior's shack.

The rock shards crumbles to dust as it lands.

[TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 7.443905, damage: 20.0 total things hit: 5. Total distance: 30.605425m or 7.651356 tiles.

a92d87c8acebb3d43b3444240f49744c.png

 

 

 

 

(MULTIPLE SHOTS PAST ARCHES REMOVED)

It sounds as though the rock shards hit 3 walls, an item, and nothing else.

You managed to hit and Warrior's shack, Warrior's shack and Warrior's shack.

The rock shards crumbles to dust as it lands.

[TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 7.438024, damage: 20.0 total things hit: 4. Total distance: 30.593752m or 7.648438 tiles.

3a26bf4840760869d6c23b3f55b11603.png

 


Multiple shots past removing the original walls it still says im hitting walls even tho I cannot find additional damage on any walls, its late im tired apologies if I missed something please do point out if I am flawed in my test but it seems fences even tho they are well within the arch will not take damage and walls that the code thinks it is hitting may be the already removed walls.

 

LIke noted above, it does not give a message for hitting walls in arches even when I managed to deal .1 damage to them on my first shot only.

 

Sorry if this is hard to understand, if you need anything explained let me know I am exausted i wanted to finish this before I got off so sorry if something does not make 100% sence I tried to make it as clear as I could for 6am XD lol.

 

 

 

 

Extra side note, rams cannot be used on the max droppable dirt slope of 40 not sure where between 30 and 40 the max lies but seems like rams should be usable on upto the max dropable slope of 40 if thats not gamebreaking to you guys maybe 41 max slope anything thats leveled up cant be hit? Just a comment nothing major.

[06:36:53] The battering ram cannot be used on such a slope.(40 slope test house)

 

 

 

 

Almost forgot to add the requested middle shot to a fence sorry, its same as above picture no damage to walls/fences on the middle shot says I hit 2 walls still tho.

 

https://i.gyazo.com/00d6ede764f9bd7467b2b9a1d94f0388.mp4

 

It sounds as though the rock shards hit 2 walls, an item, and nothing else.

You managed to hit and Warrior's shack and Warrior's shack.

The rock shards crumbles to dust as it lands.

[TEST] Projectile rock shards landed, damage multiplier: 7.4285736, damage: 20.0 total things hit: 3. Total distance: 30.576513m or 7.6441283 tiles.

 

 

Cant bash walls on pvp test server you did not make makes testing hard not sure if this can be fixed so its like normal pvp servers.

[07:36:21] You do not have permission to do that here.

[07:36:37] You do not have permission to do that here.

Faithful and Lawful where off during all bashing tests.

 

Bashing new walls gives the message

[07:40:06] You will not do any damage to the wall with that.

Seems they cannot be bashed still.

 

Bashing new fences outside houses works as normal

 

Edited by Darklords

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Can we please remove skill check on missing with the ram? It makes no sense personally. Maybe have skill factor damage? At the very least please decrease the difficulty because rams honestly feel completely useless at the moment.

 

Catapults in many occations do not hit walls. You see the animation, but no damage. An example of this is a unsupported walls having the shots absorbed by unfinished plans, and for very high height difference (only seen in cases shooting below yourself).

 

Also can we please have a fail message like before? Sometimes its hard to know if the fail shots are the true shots.

 

Can we also please make it so catapult shots do not damage ore? Its kind of annoying because it means you cannot recycle ammo a lot of the time.

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Can we also please have it so catapults hit all sides of the tile it hits?

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Test updated:

  • Fixed up the message for what buildings you hit.
  • Added fail message on cata/treb.
  • Lowered the damage variance for battering rams, a fail will now deal 1/5th damage instead of none.
  • Capped damage given to projectiles when they land - should now be the same as whats dealt to whatever you hit.
  • Fixed cata/treb projectiles not hitting fences sometimes.
  • Lowered difficulty for using the battering ram - fences are also now lower difficulty than walls.
  • Planned floors/walls should now be properly ignored by cata/treb.
  • Rewrote how the checks worked for roofs and floors - should fix the issues had with firing at roofs. A projectile that clearly passes through a roof now should hit it and land there. The box it uses for this isn't exact to the model, so if the projectile is going over the roof, try lowering your angle or power slightly - landing closer to the bottom of the roof than the top of it will be more accurate.

For the new fences and walls not taking damage, that was likely because test wasn't updated to what was on live. If you can test it again now and its still giving you the 'you won't deal damage with that' message for normal bashing tools (pickaxe/maul etc), then let me know.

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Great stuff budda, I'll be testing when I get on later!

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5 hours ago, Budda said:

Fixed cata/treb projectiles not hitting fences sometimes.

 

Spent an hour near my freedom deed last night with a catapult and some old fences. I have 51 cata and only managed to hit a few of the fences, rest of the shots would land next to fences but not hit them at all. Tried it from good positions in 2 different directions.

 

Glad to see this has been fixed on test.

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8 hours ago, JakeRivers said:

 

Spent an hour near my freedom deed last night with a catapult and some old fences. I have 51 cata and only managed to hit a few of the fences, rest of the shots would land next to fences but not hit them at all. Tried it from good positions in 2 different directions.

 

Glad to see this has been fixed on test.

 

If you land the shot near the top of the fences you'll have more luck till the update.

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I will wait for the update then give it a go again!

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I like the way your going with trying to make the game more real but, every pvp server has 300+slope dirt walls catapults arcing will just never work. Can we just not go back to the way it was if you winch 10 tiles you hit 10 tiles in front no matter what the slope, and you damage all 4 walls on that tile starting from top to bottom.

PS why do minedoor still take 3 days to bash?

Edited by hammertimes

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19 minutes ago, hammertimes said:

I like the way your going with trying to make the game more real but, every pvp server has 300+slope dirt walls catapults arcing will just never work

 

A catapult with 30 winches and 85 degree firing angle will throw a projectile as high as 450 slope. A fully loaded trebuchet can fire up to 1200 slope high.

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Only thing I can say about hitting the top of a slope is that the difficulty is very high. I'll do some more testing but my only comments would be to slightly lower the difficulty. Other than that, hitting a dirt wall with this new system is actually quite easy. 

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Looking good, many thanks for the work, Budda.

 

How's it looking with ballista, or have you gotten to that yet?

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33 minutes ago, Klaa said:

Looking good, many thanks for the work, Budda.

 

How's it looking with ballista, or have you gotten to that yet?

 

Not yet, trying to knock out a few other things first. Will be a fair amount of changes involved with that, so might not be for a little bit - though depending on how changes go with that it may later add into changes for archery too.

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Whats the plans for mine doors, tho? Now that I've seen how it works, anybody who's defending a mine hop will see the user of a ram being vulnerable, i can already see rams being abandoned and dragged by the defenders. 
I think allowing them to bash doors would be pretty fair, tho the damage is up to debate. It shouldn't be a 3 hit wonder, but it should perhaps be the same as 5 people bashing with 80ql mauls, which isn't alot.

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Can we make all war machines lockable and have permissions? 

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