Retrograde

Catapult and Trebuchet testing!

105 posts in this topic

So to the southwest of New We Are Cooking is a small catapult range with a bunch of various fences and different ql catapults to test out the new catapulting setup.

The basics are

  • Weight and ql add more damage
  • Distance adds more damage
  • Stone and metal projectiles are best
  • Catapult ql and skill changes firing angle which affects distance
  • Winches affect initial power
  • Max is still 20 damage per hit.

 

Trebuchets have also been updated with this new system too, and will have a higher starting position and have a higher initial velocity, meaning they go further than a catapult!

 

There is provided material and projectile ammo, if you want to setup something slightly different you will have to create it yourself as I cannot guarantee a GM on hand to help, but  we'll be looking at more advanced scenarios with help over the week if you're willing to provide situations to test, and we'll also be doing some housing testing on PvP servers (or PvE servers if you're like to build your own)

 

Test client here: http://www.wurmonline.com/client/wurmclient_test.jnlp

 

So as usual, use this thread for bugs with mechanics and keep it on topic so the devs can read through it easily.

 

 

Thanks!e

Retrograde

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At 90 Skill, 65ql catapult a target house that was 12 tiles away required a 21 winch. That doesn't seem right to me, to get that winch was basically guessing.

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Posted (edited)

Whats the goal of this change...?

The extra dmg over distance is kinda pointless, since its capped at 20 and people tend to bring crates of ammo.

Winching for long distances is unfavorable since the DPS is lower and thus easy to repair. Ammo consumption is really not a big thing for catapults, people move them for max DPS and tricky shoots.

 

Changing the winching angle based on skill and ql just makes it harder to learn the distances since raids got diffrent ql siege equipment and one person may call out "I winch 23 from here" which will no longer be the same for another person with diffrent skill.

And doesn't dirtwalls still block? 45 degree archs arent ideal for catapulting, merely distance. ideally you want archs that fly as vertically as possible to avoid the dirtwalls.


I mean the lower arched flying projectile in the pic below fly FURTHER but is utterely useless for actual raiding.

3fe9e349b1.png

 

 

I'm just a bit confused about the test changes. Mind clearing up why they were coded?

Edited by Zekezor
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Posted (edited)

Testing this right now. zeke is right, the flat trajectory makes things useless, if anything, higher skill should give it more of an arc.

Will update this post with some paint drawings in a minute.

Catapults need to be a tile to tile calculation, because you can balance the catapult on the edge of a tile easily. so make it go like this:

71f03c19e0.png

Where it hits all 4 borders, not just the one or two like it used to.

edit 2: you cant repair the walls on test.

edit 3: the text says im hitting, but it doesnt do any damage now.

Edited by Wanttobuy
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the distance bonus damage for ballista didn't do anything at all when I was testing it back a few months ago

I can't get on to test it but I just wanted to point it out to see if a dev or player could take a quick look at it

thx

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All shots are 90ql rockshards for these examples with 90 alll body stats(dont know if they matter) on a 65.8ql catapult and varying weigh/catapult skills/winches.

 

10 winches 1 skill goes 1 tile with 80kg shot

10 winches 50 skill goes 3 tiles with 80kg shot

10 winches 90 skill goes 3 tiles with 80kg shot

 

30 winches 1 skill goes 2 tile with 80 kg shot

30 winches 50 skill goes 4 tiles with 80kg shot

30 winches 90 skill goes ~18 tiles with 80kg shot but the shot seems to vanish and wont land on the ground when shooting that far and give no message about shattering while I assume it is

 

 

 

10 winches 1 skill goes 3 tile with 20kg shot

10 winches 50 skill goes 3 tiles with 20kg shot

10 winches 90 skill goes 3 tiles with 20kg shot

 

 

30 winches 1 skill goes 4 tile with 20 kg shot

30 winches 50 skill goes 22 tiles with 20kg shot

30 winches 90 skill goes 24 tiles with 20kg shot

 

It seems really silly to tie the distance and not the chance of a hit/damage to your skill and catapult ql, this in my opinion is actually going a step backwards from the current buggy catapulting tho I know this is the first revision and not final just my thoughts from a few hours of messing around it felt more frustrating than it already was for me at least with the inconsistent shots between winches and the requirement for what appears over 50 skill to get anything but the lightest shots to move more than a few tiles.

 

1 other side note, the bug where floors can get to like 130 damage without breaking is still in the game we got a 130 damage wooden floor last night testing.

 

I'll do some more messing around when I have more free time later and see what catapult QL does to the mix and try some levels inbetwee just 20/80 shots and 1/50/90 skill.

 

 

 

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Currently with the walls on chaos and epic most deeds are 300 slope with 2 tiles on top then 300 slope again on the other side the calculations required to hit the walls on the inner side are stupid.. I could be winching 20 while I am 10 tiles away to hit the first wall of the longhouse on top then to hit the second inner wall of that same long house 1 tile away you think you would only need to add one yeah? Nah you would have to add 1-10 to hit and if you are lucky  it's just a wall and doesn't have anything stupid on it like a parapet cause that changes the winch again. Make the winching system easier not harder we don't need ql and damage modifications to change winch distance we need a system that when you winch 20 you hit tile 20 raising is stupid hard enough unles you have a spare 4-5 hours on some deeds.

 

sory about the wall of text but I am on my mobile

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For testing purposes the dev's doing the coding should just replicate a typical war deed from chaos and then try to hit some inside walls with these new crazy mechanics. Can't you duplicate the chaos server (to save time on building wardeeds front scratch for test purposes) and do this on your own without having it open to the general public for testing before you go to a live test.

 

I think its crazy basing the range on skill and cata ql, if anything these factors should determine your chance to hit something and how much damage you do rather than the bloody range, it would be a nightmare for someone trying to put a rock on target with these factors.

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I'll be adding something to show your approximate firing distance upon winching soon. The current angle difference based on skill check only offsets the final landing position by a few meters in either direction, so it shouldn't hugely affect where your projectile is landing, just might make you want to set up your catapult more accurately for where you're trying to land things.

 

About firing angles, wanting to fire at a higher angle is something I didn't think of. I'll see about adding something that'll let you change the firing angle of the catapult - though you'd have to be aware that increasing the firing angle to get the arc higher would of course mean that the final distance fired would be shorted, as per the diagram above.

 

4 hours ago, Worksock said:

the distance bonus damage for ballista didn't do anything at all when I was testing it back a few months ago

I can't get on to test it but I just wanted to point it out to see if a dev or player could take a quick look at it

thx

 

Ballista changes aren't in yet. There will be some more funky changes for them soon.

 

2 hours ago, Darklords said:

All shots are 90ql rockshards for these examples with 90 alll body stats(dont know if they matter) on a 65.8ql catapult and varying weigh/catapult skills/winches.

 

10 winches 1 skill goes 1 tile with 80kg shot

10 winches 50 skill goes 3 tiles with 80kg shot

10 winches 90 skill goes 3 tiles with 80kg shot

 

30 winches 1 skill goes 2 tile with 80 kg shot

30 winches 50 skill goes 4 tiles with 80kg shot

30 winches 90 skill goes ~18 tiles with 80kg shot but the shot seems to vanish and wont land on the ground when shooting that far and give no message about shattering while I assume it is

 

 

 

10 winches 1 skill goes 3 tile with 20kg shot

10 winches 50 skill goes 3 tiles with 20kg shot

10 winches 90 skill goes 3 tiles with 20kg shot

 

 

30 winches 1 skill goes 4 tile with 20 kg shot

30 winches 50 skill goes 22 tiles with 20kg shot

30 winches 90 skill goes 24 tiles with 20kg shot

 

It seems really silly to tie the distance and not the chance of a hit/damage to your skill and catapult ql, this in my opinion is actually going a step backwards from the current buggy catapulting tho I know this is the first revision and not final just my thoughts from a few hours of messing around it felt more frustrating than it already was for me at least with the inconsistent shots between winches and the requirement for what appears over 50 skill to get anything but the lightest shots to move more than a few tiles.

 

1 other side note, the bug where floors can get to like 130 damage without breaking is still in the game we got a 130 damage wooden floor last night testing.

 

I'll do some more messing around when I have more free time later and see what catapult QL does to the mix and try some levels inbetwee just 20/80 shots and 1/50/90 skill.

 

 

 

 

Winch numbers will generally always go the same distance, independent of skill. Your skill check only determines the firing angle which can offset the landing position slightly. In your checks where 30 winches goes 4 tiles, that's an example of the new "fail" scenario. Previously you would fire the catapult, the projectile would visually fly and land on the tile, and then you'd get a message saying you missed everything because you failed the skill check upon landing. This skill check has been moved to the start of firing now, and if you fail, then the projectile will only have a fraction of the angle and power that you were attempting - so only lands a few tiles away.

 

Firing angle accuracy is also tied to catapult QL - which would likely offset any angle variations from skill checks a fair bit.

 

Edit: The OP doesn't say this, but please also test out trebuchets as well. They use the same physics calcs as catapults, but the projectile starts at a higher point on the model and have a higher initial velocity, so they do fire further but also higher.

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I would just add long arrow for aim before you even need to waste any shards or cows. Like in many other games. So you can see! And once you setup catapult will always fire on same distance or tile...  boring to setup everytime winches again.  Cata need to remember...

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Want a good catapult system?

There is 4 modes. One arch which is very vertical (5tiles/10winches), one that is for long distance (20tiles/10winches) and two inbetween that is 10 and 15.

Skill and QL affect accuracy. If its a hit it damage all the crap on the level of the tile it hits. If its a miss it hit another random tile in a 3x3, the radius increase by another 1 for every 10 winches past minimum. (iow 20->30->40->50)

and most importantly... this is very important... It tells you about each wall/fence/floor/person you hit and has a diffrent message when you hit a empty structure tile.

oh and a winch option where you type in the number of winches you wanna do rather than doing 10, 5, 2 for 17.

 

and if we are allowed to dream it would look more like this

Spoiler

TLDR: 3rd person view, mouse-adjustable trajectories on the fly, visual pre-shoot trajectory.

 

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2 hours ago, Budda said:

Firing angle accuracy is also tied to catapult QL - which would likely offset any angle variations from skill checks a fair bit.

 

Edit: The OP doesn't say this, but please also test out trebuchets as well. They use the same physics calcs as catapults, but the projectile starts at a higher point on the model and have a higher initial velocity, so they do fire further but also higher.

I just got the feeling there is way to much going on with the new catapult system and it gives the user no info like the angle or how to adjust/fix your missed shot like you could before or even if the shot just failed with all these crazy angles and winches randomization/ql dependency on changing angles added on top. Even old info that it used to give out seems to be missing like shards shattering or you missing. A system like that would work much better with an actual UI of some kind to help control those angels or something random angle change based on skill and Ql is just going to be more frustrating than the existing broken catapulting system at least you can figure out a general setup to hit most of the time defending a deed is already much easier than raiding it if people know what they are doing and have supply's setup to defend.

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1 minute ago, Darklords said:

I just got the feeling there is way to much going on with the new catapult system and it gives the user no info like the angle or how to adjust/fix your missed shot like you could before or even if the shot just failed with all these crazy angles and winches randomization/ql dependency on changing angles added on top. Even old info that it used to give out seems to be missing like shards shattering or you missing. A system like that would work much better with an actual UI of some kind to help control those angels or something random angle change based on skill and Ql is just going to be more frustrating than the existing broken catapulting system at least you can figure out a general setup to hit most of the time defending a deed is already much easier than raiding it if people know what they are doing and have supply's setup to defend.

 

Yeah the feedback its currently giving is a bit lacking. I messed up how the 'it sounds like you hit x' messages were working so I'm fixing that now. Update later today will have better info on what you hit, and give an approximate firing distance based on winches and firing angle (once I add being able to change that).

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Budda said:

 

Yeah the feedback its currently giving is a bit lacking. I messed up how the 'it sounds like you hit x' messages were working so I'm fixing that now. Update later today will have better info on what you hit, and give an approximate firing distance based on winches and firing angle (once I add being able to change that).

I will be able to give you much better feedback with those added, currently it is just to hard to know what is going on it feels almost random so I just left it till something like these are fixed I look forward to being able to test it with those fixed up tho ill keep an eye out for the patch notes.

 

Also the ability on test to adjust item quality with out making 15 different QL catapults would help alot if that matters much to.

Edited by Darklords

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1 hour ago, Darklords said:

Also the ability on test to adjust item quality with out making 15 different QL catapults would help alot if that matters much to.

If you need some new catapults and trebuchets shoot me a PM on IRC and I'll do that for you.

 

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Add a wardeed on test.

300 deep 3x3 pit with another 300 high 1tile dirtwall around it (600 slope total on the inside). Then add another 300 high 2tile dirtwall 10 tiles to the side of it. Its a good simulation of a basic wardeed.

Oh and a 8 story token house and longhouses on the dirtwalls.

 

Kkthxbai

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Does it need to be enemy kingdom? or would off deed suffice?

 

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Well people would turn hots after like 15 shoots...? Enemy please.

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Posted (edited)

Although, specific wardeed design tends to adapt to w/e the warmachine code happens to be.

 

EDIT: How about some better feedback on shots using the dioptra tool? Basically it can be used in place of "test" shots for aiming. Whether there should be skillgain there... :ph34r:

Edited by Klaa

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Test servers updated.

 

Changes:

  • Floors, roofs and bridge parts now properly destroy at over 100 damage.
  • Added approximate distance messages when winching. Distance calculation is made on the assumption of firing across flat ground, so it's not going to be exact depending on where you're firing, but it should be pretty close. (Unless you're firing off the side of a cliff, or into the side of a cliff, in which case it'll be pretty far off.)
  • Added test messages to the winching message showing the current power and firing angle of the catapult.
  • Added two new actions for increasing and reducing the firing angle of catapults. They should be defaulting to 45 degrees, and can be changed to a max of 85 degrees and a min of 5 degrees. Each action changes the degrees by 5, and takes a few seconds depending on your skill.
  • Changed action time for winching to take your skill into account instead of a flat 1s per winch. At 100 skill the winch speed should be 33% faster. At 1 skill it is the same as previously, 1s/winch.
  • Changed base damage multiplier from using firing distance to using final projectile velocity instead. Should mean that even if the projectile doesn't go as far (like when having a high firing angle), it should still do a good amount of damage due to how fast it is hitting.
  • Changed the "it sounds like X hit Y" messages on projectiles landing. Will now give a breakdown if each type of thing hit and how many of them were hit.
  • Fixed the 'only one item can be damaged' thing so that only one item is damaged, instead of one per tile in range of the projectile landing radius.
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Posted (edited)

58 minutes ago, Budda said:
  • Fixed the 'only one item can be damaged' thing so that only one item is damaged, instead of one per tile in range of the projectile landing radius.

Uhm... So if we hit ONE wall/object only per shoot?

So destroying buildings is 3x (or more if people repair) timeconsuming?

Is this a joke?

Did someone tell you raiding was too fast in a pm or something? 

 

(at work so i can't test atm)

Edited by Zekezor

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Just now, Zekezor said:

Uhm... So if we hit ONE wall/object only per shoot?

So destroying buildings is 3x (or more if people repair) timeconsuming?

Is this a joke?

Did someone tell you raiding was too fast in a pm or something? 

 

Items are not walls, floors, roofs, bridges, players, mobs, or fences in this sense. Items are actual items. Before jumping down my throat over an issue that doesn't exist, please ask nicely for clarification or test it yourself.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Budda said:

Fixed the 'only one item can be damaged' thing so that only one item is damaged, instead of one per tile in range of the projectile landing radius.

:( 


Edit: So this is talking about what exactly?

Edited by Olloch

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5 minutes ago, Olloch said:

:( 


Edit: So this is talking about what exactly?

 

As per my reply above. Items are items, they aren't walls or anything. If the projectile lands in range to hit 3 walls, 12 creatures, 2 floors, and a pile of 50 dirt - it will hit all 3 walls, all 12 creatures, both floors, and one piece of dirt from the pile. 

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