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Horsch

Wurm Population Status Problem Solving.

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1 hour ago, Myriad said:

1. Problem Framing.  This drives the process. 

 

Good: the problem you paint doesn't exist. No one but a few attention deficit suffering bedwetting hooligans would want PvP and PvE mixed so they can destroy stuff for no gain to themselves at all.

 

Process ends.

 

Sorry to be so agressive and flippant about it, but I want to make it perfectly clear that me getting thrown into PvP in any shape or form at all would basically destroy the game for me.

 

that was my opinion as seeing how i don't see much of a population, and it was a way to appease the pve crowd too?

but then someone else stated, that a big population and big server causes plenty of lag. so that would have to be readdressed to try to figure out that problem first.

 

and then someone else stated they wanted pve to be pve. and i posted my opinion that maybe the pve servers should be merged then, or make them pve only. dont give them a pvp server if that's the case.

 

but you're right, if the PVE'ers dont want to PVP, remove the PVP access then. simple as that.  there should be a clear separation of the PVP and PVE if PVE don't want PVP, right?

 

let me know what you think on that.

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Since you Horsch have little time and attachment to the current PvE servers you think little about shutting them down, merging them or introducing pvp into them. I have had a deed on the Deliverance server since the day that it opened sometime in 2012 I think it was. So that is around 5 years of enjoying the whole process of the progress of the deed and having it as an experience to walk through each day, realizing where I have shaped it from the blank environment that it was.

 

I am sure there are many other players that have done the same and would not want someone cavalierly mentioning that this should all be eliminated for the sake of "increasing the Wurm population". Although apparently it would not bother you (or anyone else who comes up with these wipe out the servers ideas) it would however actually have the reverse effect of your stated intentions, meaning that those players would most likely not continue on playing the game if they had lost all those years of creation and dedication to improve their Villages and surroundings. I suggest you not be so careless of what others have built of value to themselves. This is really a foolish idea as presented in the OP, putting it mildly.

 

=Ayes=

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4 minutes ago, Ayes said:

Since you Horsch have little time and attachment to the current PvE servers you think little about shutting them down, merging them or introducing pvp into them. I have had a deed on the Deliverance server since the day that it opened sometime in 2012 I think it was. So that is around 5 years of enjoying the whole process of the progress of the deed and having it as an experience to walk through each day, realizing where I have shaped it from the blank environment that it was.

 

I am sure there are many other players that have done the same and would not want someone cavalierly mentioning that this should all be eliminated for the sake of "increasing the Wurm population". Although apparently it would not bother you (or anyone else who comes up with these wipe out the servers ideas) it would however actually have the reverse effect of your stated intentions, meaning that those players would most likely not continue on playing the game if they had lost all those years of creation and dedication to improve their Villages and surroundings. I suggest you not be so careless of what others have built of value to themselves. This is really a foolish idea as presented in the OP, putting it mildly.

 

=Ayes=

 

I did not anywhere say wipe out a server.  I said to merge them.  As in merge 4 server maps, yes, the entire map, into the new server.  Yes, it would create massive amounts of empty space, but would afford players the option of coming together easier and doing group things?  And I understand many players have been playing for years and don't want to lose their deeds and such, that's why I mentioned to MERGE server maps.

 

Again, this is not just an idea, this is my opinion, and I was asking for others input into it so I could see others perspective on the population status.  Not only to see their thoughts, but also to change mine and to actually formulate an idea or suggestion that is actually worthy of being a change that benefits everyone, not just myself.

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Moved it back :P My apologies for the inconvenience. 

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8 minutes ago, Yldrania said:

Moved it back :P My apologies for the inconvenience. 

 

No problem.  Hopefully I can get more people to post their opinions on the topic.  I really like this game, this is probably the one game that I've played the longest my entire life, and I've played a plethora amount of games, trying to find one that I truly enjoy.

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2 hours ago, Horsch said:

but you're right, if the PVE'ers dont want to PVP, remove the PVP access then. simple as that.  there should be a clear separation of the PVP and PVE if PVE don't want PVP, right?

 

let me know what you think on that.

I think that Rolf tried that, and eventually it became clear that the PVP server would die without fresh blood coming over from the PVE cluster. The PVP cluster then lobbied to have them reconnected, which they eventually were.

 

Having PvP and PvE areas on the same server isn't a terrible idea, but adding another server when the player base is already stretched so thin is.

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4 hours ago, Myriad said:

1. Problem Framing.  This drives the process. 

 

Good: the problem you paint doesn't exist. No one but a few attention deficit suffering bedwetting hooligans would want PvP and PvE mixed so they can destroy stuff for no gain to themselves at all.

 

Process ends.

 

Sorry to be so agressive and flippant about it, but I want to make it perfectly clear that me getting thrown into PvP in any shape or form at all would basically destroy the game for me.

So, your motion to refute his point is to just insult his side of the argument?

 

Do you have an actual counter?

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27 minutes ago, thorgot said:

I think that Rolf tried that, and eventually it became clear that the PVP server would die without fresh blood coming over from the PVE cluster. The PVP cluster then lobbied to have them reconnected, which they eventually were.

 

Having PvP and PvE areas on the same server isn't a terrible idea, but adding another server when the player base is already stretched so thin is.

 

I never knew PVP was once completely disconnected from the PVE cluster.  I thought the whole point of the Epic cluster, was so players could have that fast skill gain, and the Epic curve, to get into pvp faster, and that was to appease players that wanted to try PVP away from the PVE cluster.

 

I also think having PVP and PVE areas on the same server wouldn't be that bad of an idea.  Has it ever been done?  I know quite a few games where they're PVP servers, but disallow PVP in main cities, or the guards in the main cities are so Overpowered they almost instantly kill players to initiate PVP in them.

 

I didn't mean by adding another server, I meant by merging 4 servers into one.  Yeah, it still stretches out the population, but it gives them room to go explorer and meet other players without having to travel by boat to another server, and waste hours of their life to do so.  Making it easier to go visit others.

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There's nothing you can do to save the game until you remove all of the ###### mechanics that have been thrown into the game at random.

 

Runes

Random Spell List Gods

Balancing SoTG

Valrei Spells

Karma

Revert Shield Training (jesus why does it take so long)

Hell Horses (if you want to go deeeeeeeeeeeeeeep)

HoTA (what a joke)

(probably more)

 

This game was the most alive, and most fun when there was just a base game, 2 Models per Kingdom, Iron Weapons, Steel Plate, Iron Chain, some Drake or Scale, no unique respawns, no Rares or Supremes, no Glimmer or Adamantine.

 

Addition after addition, server after server, it's just dropping more and more.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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3 hours ago, Oreo said:

There's nothing you can do to save the game until you remove all of the ###### mechanics that have been thrown into the game at random.

 

Runes

Random Spell List Gods

Balancing SoTG

Valrei Spells

Karma

Revert Shield Training (jesus why does it take so long)

Hell Horses (if you want to go deeeeeeeeeeeeeeep)

HoTA (what a joke)

(probably more)

 

This game was the most alive, and most fun when there was just a base game, 2 Models per Kingdom, Iron Weapons, Steel Plate, Iron Chain, some Drake or Scale, no unique respawns, no Rares or Supremes, no Glimmer or Adamantine.

 

Addition after addition, server after server, it's just dropping more and more.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Well, I don't think investing more money into another server, that has different mechanics is a great idea.  Unless wurm merges some of the freedom servers, like i mentioned previously, 4 servers into 1 bigger one, allowing all deeds to migrate to it, then utilizing those 3 extra servers for a different mechanics based server.

I mean, you really think players besides yourself, want a server, or a cluster rather, with all those things removed?

 

So, let's say they had the ability, maybe a quick program that could easily change those settings.  Just simply do the following changes:

3 servers. 1 template kingdom per server. They all connect via land AND water.  No hota.  No hell horse spawns.  Change shield training back.  No karma.  No valrei items to use for spells means no star gems either.  Remove all paths.  Completely random spell list for each template god (might as well make it all gods can be used by all kingdoms to make it fair). Runes? What are Runes? Well remove these anyways!

 

With these 3 servers, call this a test cluster, allow freedom cluster and epic cluster players to convert a copy of their account to these servers, and to pick whichever they want, kind of like the challenge server.  Keep the player stats as is that are converted, during the test phase (1 month long).  If it's popular, reset all character stats, do not wipe the servers, but remove all writs and deeds if possible? Allow players to once again transfer a copy of their characters to this test cluster, but remove half of their current stats. Let it go on forever depending on the success of the first test phase?

 

I mean, that could be a way to reuse current servers, without having to invest money into stuff to try things out.  Any other ideas based off of Oreo's opinion anyone else have? Does anyone else agree with Oreo's opinion of what needs to happen?

 

I mean, if this cluster was something players wanted, the epic cluster could be shut down, or turned into something like this, or epic players could merge with freedom cluster, while this new cluster is produced.  Are there enough players with this thinking of Oreo's to want something like that?

 

What's the pros and cons to changing those things Oreo?  I don't think those things could effectively be done to the current clusters.  At least not willingly by the majority of the players of either cluster.

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5 minutes ago, Slickshot said:

The amount of commas in that OP made my eyes bleed.

 

Would it help if i reread it and retyped it?  I'm very far off from being proficient in English. Sorry!

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Thread has now been modified and I removed probably about 100 commas.  Sorry to everyone that actually read that horrible post.  Hopefully it's a little easier to read.

 

EDIT, I also updated current lists to reflect the recent posts.

Edited by Horsch

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I rarely play on any of the PVE servers, but i think touching them in any way is a horrid idea, as thats the main lifeline for CodeClub monetarily.

-1, I get a kick out of reading your suggestions.

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I'm not even sure WHY would you want to merge them.

 

Even assuming the tool that can merge the data from 4 different maps exists (it doesn't) and covers the infinite edge cases such a merge would entails (e.g. what happens if a player has a deed on 2 different servers) ...

 

Well now you have 1x 4096 server instead of 4x 2048 servers, that server is slower and eats more resources (in terms of CPU, RAM, IOPS) than the 4 combined - because wurm doesn't really scale up like that. 

 

So why?

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57 minutes ago, Budda said:

Servers will not be merged.

 

I'm going to start quoting this EVERYWHERE.

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

everywhere...

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I like how everyone is an expert for server side programming. MERGE ALL THE SERVERS TODAY!!!11!!!1!!!!!eleven!!!

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Well, now we know that servers won't merge.

Does Code Club have any servers right now that aren't being used for anything or have the capability to setup an additional server without utilizing extra funds to test something?  Or when is it just the matter of running another application on one of the currently running servers?  I'm sure the Wurm servers have separate physical servers to handle load of players connecting to it.

 

What are some of the limitations of the servers as far as what can actually be done to them?  Can an option to convert to another cluster with an automatic modifier of the stats actually be done?  Can certain features like meditation paths be removed or all priests be usable by all kingdoms?  What kind of time would it take to make those changes if they are capable? 

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28 minutes ago, Sklo:D said:

I like how everyone is an expert for server side programming. MERGE ALL THE SERVERS TODAY!!!11!!!1!!!!!eleven!!!

 

After thinking about how each item and wall have specific locations and how it's tied to the map and the database, I can see how hard it would be.  But what if there was a new map or rather a new formatting of how the database worked?  so lets say there's 2 maps, exactly the same, with houses and items located as all the same locations, so those numbers that connect those to the database were all the same, how would you merge those onto a new map so they would now be at 2 different locations? 

 

lets say the first tile of the map had an identification code of "1" in the sql database for map location.  and there's 100 items on that tile. all those item identification codes are 400 to 499 and all have a map location code of 1, because they're located on that tile.

How many tiles are in an 8 x 8 map? 2,048 x 2,048. That's 4,194,304 different map location codes in the database.  So obviously you would need math in finding out the new location for the second map to merge into the database and you would need to change quite a few code numbers.  You would also have to change those item identification codes so they don't mirror the other servers items. Also changing character locations on the servers as well.  You're right, no one thinks about how difficult it would be to merge servers or think about the server side programming needed.

 

But there is a quote, that I really like:

Where there is a will, there is a way. If there is a chance in a million that you can do something, anything, to keep what you want from ending, do it. Pry the door open or, if need be, wedge your foot in that door and keep it open. -Pauline Kael
 

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17 hours ago, Ayes said:

Since you Horsch have little time and attachment to the current PvE servers you think little about shutting them down, merging them or introducing pvp into them. I have had a deed on the Deliverance server since the day that it opened sometime in 2012 I think it was. So that is around 5 years of enjoying the whole process of the progress of the deed and having it as an experience to walk through each day, realizing where I have shaped it from the blank environment that it was.

 

I am sure there are many other players that have done the same and would not want someone cavalierly mentioning that this should all be eliminated for the sake of "increasing the Wurm population". Although apparently it would not bother you (or anyone else who comes up with these wipe out the servers ideas) it would however actually have the reverse effect of your stated intentions, meaning that those players would most likely not continue on playing the game if they had lost all those years of creation and dedication to improve their Villages and surroundings. I suggest you not be so careless of what others have built of value to themselves. This is really a foolish idea as presented in the OP, putting it mildly.

 

=Ayes=

 

arent you the guy that suggested removing the pvp servers for the reason no one plays there, when there was still a large playerbase?

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3 hours ago, Maxthx said:

 

I'm going to start quoting this EVERYWHERE.

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

everywhere...

 

4 hours ago, Budda said:

Servers will not be merged.

 

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4 hours ago, Horsch said:

Well, now we know that servers won't merge.

where have you been???????????????????????

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44 minutes ago, Oreo said:

where have you been???????????????????????

 

Sorry, now I know that servers won't merge.

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23 hours ago, Horsch said:

 

I did not anywhere say wipe out a server.  I said to merge them.  As in merge 4 server maps, yes, the entire map, into the new server.  Yes, it would create massive amounts of empty space, but would afford players the option of coming together easier and doing group things?  And I understand many players have been playing for years and don't want to lose their deeds and such, that's why I mentioned to MERGE server maps.

 

Again, this is not just an idea, this is my opinion, and I was asking for others input into it so I could see others perspective on the population status.  Not only to see their thoughts, but also to change mine and to actually formulate an idea or suggestion that is actually worthy of being a change that benefits everyone, not just myself.

 

Since this thread IMO is just a fishing expedition, and some well known "fish" in Wurm have nibbled on the bait, I'll grab a bite....

 

1.)To change a server that was made to be and has been a PvE (non-PvP) server into a PvP server IS effectively "wiping the server" for most of the Players that played on that type of server exclusively. Even a server merge is still "wiping the server" because each of the servers would lose forever the unique character it held previously.

 

2.) You assume that players once exposed to PvP will accept PvP and embrace it ... that has already been proved FALSE in Wurm ... those who would do so already have, the rest won't. You make the same flaw in judgement Rolf did when he turned on PvP Raiding on the old JK and MR Home servers years ago, and his wallet corrected his opinion on this false assumption. Rolf might have believed everyone thought as he thought about Wurm and gaming in general, but over and over again it's apparent that there is no one way to Wurm (no one way to play the game), but many ways, and all have some validity to each and should be accepted and respected. This is why I don't ask for all PvP in Wurm to be removed permanently (because I am against it 100% in all games), but rather I respect the opinions of others and accept how they wish to play the game for what it is... their free will choice. Since you Horsch (and others) wish there to be good PvP in Wurm than I support your desire for this and I will support it in polls here and discussions, but don't expect me to join the war gang and go raid a deed... and that is what you are asking me to do when you propose a merger of the PvE servers and alter them to make them PvP capable. Once a person realizes some will never accept their opinion or way of playing the game they also eventually realize the groups with the most differing opinions can not "play nice together" or share the same server, in this case the PvP crowd on one hand and the PvE/non-PvP on the other. This too has been born out in not just Wurm but in many online/mmo games.

 

3.) In a game like Wurm, where Players can do every single skill AND run both a regular character and a priest... please tell me WHY Community is so important? Do we need each other In Wurm? Really? No. (We have access to every skill and there is no limit to how many skills each character can gain.) Do we need community on the PvE/non-PvP servers? No. (We just need customers if we are into buying and selling items/resources or into selling characters, and the wtb/wts/wta posts illustrate this.) Does PvP encourage community? Yes it does, but I as well as others play Wurm for it's creative side, not for it's destructive side.

 

The best mechanic to encourage community and cooperation with other players in online games almost always uses restrictions of player abilities and skills to promote such in a virtual world that lacks real life survival needs such as biting cold and thirst and real hunger and lack of shelter. Our characters have none of these considerations once they get "refresh". In a game, any game, there needs to be limits to what each individual character can do and there's not enough limits in Wurm to encourage community to be bluntly honest about it. Wurm discourages community because we can do too much.

 

Can we fix this? Not in a gaming genre where players want their characters to be superheros and "do everything" types. Most MMOs have ruined their own gameplay and fun because they gave in to the players that want their characters to be able to do it all. Maybe if items/tools/weapons in the game wore out faster and enchant attempts were much more difficult and shatter percentage much higher... make it so the number of dedicated Weapons Smiths were far fewer than now, the number of leather Workers, etc.,... but it would come at a cost. If the Devs wanted to force players to join communities it would in fact cause as much departure from Wurm as forced PvP would because the player community that is here NOW is here because of how the game is designed. If Wurm was designed more to promote more community need (and I mean really need) and support then some players here now would be gone and others that tried Wurm would have stayed.
 

Implementing your server alterations to enhance PvP and increase population would lose CodeClub customers, because their way of playing the game would come to an end. Not everyone wants to play Wurm Unlimited and so there would be profits lost. As I said above, that's not just my opinion, that has in fact been proven in Wurm over the course of the life of this online game. Any serious attempts to push or force players into PvP results in a few converts and many Players leaving the game.

 

 

 

Edited by geode
collecting my scattered thoughts on this
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