Nappy

Reducing PVP FUD

112 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

its not tbh, i want to let people see that it's not the case of just simply applying and that most of the stuff that retro writes seems to be just plain ######

@Armyis part of the Warthunder team now and doesn't have time for Wurm anymore, but the fact that PM's or emails like these haven't even been read after several months is alarming to me, and should be alarming to you...

 

#riggedvotes

Edited by Quicktor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Let me make a public announcement: i dont want to be a part of your drama. Dont message me asking me to 'like' your posts or to 'take your survey' or whatever kind of S H I T P O S T I N G you are doing. 

Learn to be grown-ups and act mature. For goodness sake, its a video game.

4f69088e52474d549ed04926d140ab2a.png

*Anyone deleted me from his friends list.
 

Edited by MootRed
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Retrograde said:

 

 

Anyone who wishes to apply as a volunteer developer knows how to go about it.

 

@RetrogradeHow does one go about that ? I know two individuals who are very talented and capable of doing just as good as our current devs and could fix a lot the issues in a timely manner given the opportunity. So could you elaborate on the process of applying for volunteer developer work ?

Edited by Egard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow...

 

This devolved fast...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You should remove that guy as a friend on steam he completely derailed this thread. I can say for a fact a lot of those requests get ignored though Retrograde. A lot of us "Freedom folk" would like to see balance back into the game, to speak selfishly this would fix a lot of problems especially with the economy.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Pingpong said:

I find this interesting that you point out PVPers are known to exploit bugs and that you call that a good thing Nappy. It used to be frowned upon in wurm hehe. It's been long known that if you want to know what bugs are floating in wurm, ask a pvper. If the pvp crowd was more helpful in getting the bugs fixed instead of abusing them, then reporting them when the other side starts using them in hopes of getting them a ban I'd have more sympathy for them. Having traveled wurm extensively, I'm unconvinced that pvp is anymore creative then pve in how they play, they simply play to a higher Nth degree, aka more ruthless.

What I do know is from history, Rolf spent years trying to entice his pvp server numbers up with affinities, moonmetals and hotas. History has shown that wurm is by and large a pve game. As per the server graphs on the wiki, Total prem players is 3042, Chaos is 238 at time of this typing, Desertion:31,Serentiy:43, Affliction:69, Elevation:103. My calculator says that Pve vs Pvp at the time of this typing is 2558 vs 484.  We can talk about how much pvp pays into the game and so on and so forth (Along all the selling from pvp to pve on freedom I see), but I fail to see how a small minority comes on the forums so often and demands their own dev and their own fixes. My calculator says 15% of total toons online atm are pvp, but maths... As near as I can tell, Xanadians have about the same right per pop as all of pvp to come onto the forums and demand their own dev and their own fix list :P Wurm is no longer in 2010 or 2013 or 2015, and either adapt or perish ;)

Actually read my words a bit more closely. Here's what I said in my post that I think you are replying to:

 

(snip)

 

PVP players are always seeking advantages. As a result they tend to push the boundaries on what can be done, are more creative with directions the game could go in and often identify game breaking bugs including many non-PVP ones that would not be identified until much, much later.

 

(end snip)

 

This isn't saying anything more than players in Wurm PVP treat it like a competitive event. This means they look for ways where they can do unexpected things and often they do this in normal game play without hacking or otherwise modifying the code.

 

Exploiting for me is when someone knowingly uses an unintended bug in the code and takes advantage of it unfairly. The key point here is knowingly. Wurm is poorly documented and often it is not clear what is intended behaviour (ie. a feature) and what is a bug (ie. unintended feature). In a game where so much relies on player's discovering things then it's plausible that most things are working as intended (since it is production software after all). Only when something is reported officially as a bug (often through a published known issues list) can something fairly be seen as exploiting when using a reported and published known bug to do something that shouldn't happen.

 

Hacking is also a negative if they are using some sort of modified client or tool that allows them to do something they shouldn't be able to do. Makes the playing field unfair. Macroing could be a good example of this. 

 

I do agree with your second point which I will rephrase as, if you want to really have deep knowledge of the game mechanics join a PVP kingdom (doesn't matter which one usually). By participating in kingdom chat and more often kingdom TeamSpeak/Discord etc you will quickly learn more about how the game works then you would have in a less dangerous hermit deed PVE world. This makes sense. On PVP if someone knows more than you then you risk losing your ingame life, your ingame stuff and even your ingame deed/kingdom.

 

~Nappy

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said Nappy. 

 

The biggest PvP overhaul we've had was the fight fix which was almost 10 years ago now? I could be wrong but I feel it's close to 10 years.. 

 

In my personal opinion when it's come to bugs many people abuse them within a small circle and most of the time the general public has no live what the bug even was. The only true exploit that was abused by a large crowd was the speed bug years ago, many of these people still play and barely have an above average account. Do I feel any Wurm PvP servers need a full wipe? No, it will just deter people from playing all together. I think if the devs listen to the public and play their cards right you'll see a huge increase of player base around the PVP side of the game. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MootRed said:

Let me make a public announcement: i dont want to be a part of your drama. Dont message me asking me to 'like' your posts or to 'take your survey' or whatever kind of S H I T P O S T I N G you are doing. 

Learn to be grown-ups and act mature. For goodness sake, its a video game.

4f69088e52474d549ed04926d140ab2a.png

*Anyone deleted me from his friends list.
 

Lol

 

Says he wants no drama but copies personal talks

 

Grow up kid

11 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, LorenaMontana said:

Lol

 

Says he wants no drama but copies personal talks

 

Grow up kid

 

cant eat an omelet without breaking a few egg heads. Who are you, anyway? Ive never seen your face around here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He poked people who he knows or played with for pvp. For the most part that's the people interested in getting pvp fixed and would have the required feedback. As for likes, that's how you get people to see ######

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

i know of two other extremely talented individuals who run extremely successful WU servers who also weren't even looked at when they apped up.

 

8 hours ago, Pingpong said:

I find this interesting that you point out PVPers are known to exploit bugs and that you call that a good thing Nappy. It used to be frowned upon in wurm hehe. It's been long known that if you want to know what bugs are floating in wurm, ask a pvper. If the pvp crowd was more helpful in getting the bugs fixed instead of abusing them, then reporting them when the other side starts using them in hopes of getting them a ban I'd have more sympathy for them. Having traveled wurm extensively, I'm unconvinced that pvp is anymore creative then pve in how they play, they simply play to a higher Nth degree, aka more ruthless.

What I do know is from history, Rolf spent years trying to entice his pvp server numbers up with affinities, moonmetals and hotas. History has shown that wurm is by and large a pve game. As per the server graphs on the wiki, Total prem players is 3042, Chaos is 238 at time of this typing, Desertion:31,Serentiy:43, Affliction:69, Elevation:103. My calculator says that Pve vs Pvp at the time of this typing is 2558 vs 484.  We can talk about how much pvp pays into the game and so on and so forth (Along all the selling from pvp to pve on freedom I see), but I fail to see how a small minority comes on the forums so often and demands their own dev and their own fixes. My calculator says 15% of total toons online atm are pvp, but maths... As near as I can tell, Xanadians have about the same right per pop as all of pvp to come onto the forums and demand their own dev and their own fix list :P Wurm is no longer in 2010 or 2013 or 2015, and either adapt or perish ;)

 

If you knew how many bugs i see reported publicly or privately on a daily basis that take no longer than five minutes to fix (as proven by people who patch these things in WU VERY quickly), that are then abused because after two, three years these bugs aren't even addressed much less fixed, that only seem to ever get fixed when they are abused to such an extent that it personally inconveniences a staff member or a group of people who complain very very loudly to multiple staff members.

 

I'd imagine your faith in the dev team would be as little as mine. Especially so when you link a recording of a bug in TS and ask how long it would take to fix, and three people who work with WU religiously all say a number under two minutes with no hesitation. Its quite funny really. This is ignoring stupid stuff like the wand of the seas bug being reported to buddha over a year ago, and then him saying he randomly stumbled across it a few days ago, a year later.

 

 

Certain people can testify to this, if you demonstrate you are actually interested in getting ###### done for the PvP community, and i do mean demonstrate with action, i dont mean just say you care/are doing something, they will move mountains for you. I know people willing to get on and test things 6-12 hours a day, every day, but they aren't given the chance and they aren't encouraged, because the existing reward system is lackluster and there have been cases before of people not getting rewarded when they were told they would be, they don't have the tools to properly document and thoroughly test a bug or issue themselves without purchasing a copy of WU (and even then in some cases this can be inaccurate because many mechanics are different), and most times the bug or issue doesn't get fixed or addressed or even commented on.

 

 

This goes hand in hand with testing new features, like the last time Buddha tried to change some stuff with PvP. I remember distinctly two individuals who stayed up all night testing something, i can't remember what, and they gave him criticism on this. They told him it was bad, they told him why, and they gave him data, and he replied by quoting their post and telling them to test it first. These people promptly went into teamspeak with us, complained, and haven't tested anything since because the developer who asked them to test something just dismissed them because he got bad feedback.

 

Not very encouraging when you spend half your day doing something for someone else because they asked for feedback, and they don't even look at it, and basically tell you to stuff it.

Edited by MAADposter
5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Ayes said:

 

Yes indeed, since development resources are limited it is not a wise idea to waste but a fraction of them to the pvp side of the game, as per player participation in it is disproportionate to the time that has been spent on it in the past and in the future, as you have mentioned in this post.

 

In plain words, stop wasting development time on the pvp aspects of the game and imposing negative restrictions on the PvE side of the game due to their conflicting objectives. Let this crippled horse die its own death, as within Wurm it will never draw any significant player base or income. Really, give it up.

 

=Ayes=

Just because you don't like an aspect of the game it doesn't mean is not important. I pay a subscription just as you do and I rather have pvp available to me.

 

PvP is player generated content in a scale that non pvpers will never understand. Killing PvP in a game such as this will eventually kill PvE as well as the player base will have even less things to do, less options for them.

 

I don't understand you. You always want to eliminate content in Wurm. First the rifts and now PvP? Is your vision of Wurm a farming simulator?

Edited by Angelklaine
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, MAADposter said:

i know of two other extremely talented individuals who run extremely successful WU servers who also weren't even looked at when they apped up.

 

 

If you knew how many bugs i see reported publicly or privately on a daily basis that take no longer than five minutes to fix (as proven by people who patch these things in WU VERY quickly), that are then abused because after two, three years these bugs aren't even addressed much less fixed, that only seem to ever get fixed when they are abused to such an extent that it personally inconveniences a staff member or a group of people who complain very very loudly to multiple staff members.

 

I'd imagine your faith in the dev team would be as little as mine.

 

 

Certain people can testify to this, if you demonstrate you are actually interested in getting ###### done for the PvP community, and i do mean demonstrate with action, i dont mean just say you care/are doing something, they will move mountains for you. I know people willing to get on and test things 8-12 hours a day, every day, but they aren't given the chance and they aren't encouraged, because the existing reward system is lackluster and there have been cases before of people not getting rewarded when they were told they would be, they don't have the tools to properly document and thoroughly test a bug or issue themselves without purchasing a copy of WU (and even then in some cases this can be inaccurate because many mechanics are different), and most times the bug or issue doesn't get fixed or addressed or even commented on.

 

 

This goes hand in hand with testing new features, like the last time Buddha tried to change some stuff with PvP. I remember distinctly two individuals who stayed up all night testing something, i can't remember what, and they gave him criticism on this. They told him it was bad, they told him why, and they gave him data, and he replied by quoting their post and telling them to test it first. These people promptly went into teamspeak with us, complained, and haven't tested anything since because the developer who asked them to test something just dismissed them because he got bad feedback.

 

Not very encouraging when you spend half your day doing something for someone else because they asked for feedback, and they don't even look at it, and basically tell you to stuff it.

I find this most curious I'm supposed to take the word of an emotional forum alt for how many bugs he/she/it sees reported everyday for veracity when I reported actual log in numbers. Must be that famous PVP logic, I joke but the point is the same. Sure I know bugs get fixed when the wrong person gets annoyed. It's no secret. It's no secret the kingdoms abuse bugs and then try and get each other banned for using the same bug. I wouldn't count the low level bugs that most of us have a hard time figuring out are bugs in the first place until we see those famous/infamous patch notes.

The reward system is a joke in and of itself. It seems to strictly depend on who you know and how you report something I guess? It's never worked for me and I've reported at least 1 game breaking bug. Some of the bugs I've found were worth their own reward for the screenshot though ^_^

I wouldn't begin to answer for the devs of wurm, some of them (at least one) dabbled in  pvp far too long imo anyway to the detriment of the game. Every kingdom can tell you horror stories of it's own about dev involvment or when the emails/ircs got through higher up and things changed drastically. If the game were truly balanced I'd be able to go find a hota statue, moonmetals and the like on freedom while farming my own affinities. I wouldn't need to join the 15% who push the boundaries, and we all saw how that went recently on wild.

I do recall Budda offering to spend 6 months playing pvp and being told to shove it by the leading players on pvp. I doubt he's got any warm feelings for them now :P If that's the case then y'all have a problem indeed because you've had a switch of devs running the pvp and pve spheres.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify, forum pm is NOT the way to apply. 

 

I thought it had been said before, but if anyone does wish to volunteer as a developer for wurm they can email Budda with examples of work and see where it goes.

 

I'd also like to point out that we do consider both PvP and pve playstyles important, I'd like to see the bickering between the two styles in this thread stop, as it does not contribute anything to the conversation and only causes upset

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How does one acquire budda emails to apply then ?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still think, and this is my opinion so don't get angry with me! There isn't simply enough transparency. How do you gain more transparency? You guys used to do a DevBlog, http://wurmonline.tumblr.com/ why not start that up again? It would do a lot of good as well to explain progress on large updates, and also the pvp side of things. It's good you guys are working on fixing pvp and it's not completely forgotten. First time I heard of it, that might contribute to more growth for WO (which I hope is still the main focus these days and not WU.)

 

Thanks.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Pingpong said:

I do recall Budda offering to spend 6 months playing pvp and being told to shove it by the leading players on pvp

 

I don't remember that ever happening but hes welcome to join hots-epic if he wants.   I think it would be a good thing for devs to learn about how the pvp side of the game works through experience

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posting in a legendary thread.


Weirdness aside, @Retrograde What are some of the options being discussed as alternatives to another map reset on the epic cluster? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots and lots of crocodiles!

 

Ultimately there's a lot still in the air with it, so I can't exactly go on about some, because I don't want to cause unnecessary complaints or panic over ideas, any ideas that we do flesh out will be floated around (see what I did there?) prior to implementation of course

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm guessing, but I'd say Budda's email address is probably budda at wurmonline.com...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And a simple reply to his PM saying "please email me with examples of your work etc" is beyond buddas remit?

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I'll stir the discussion.

 

Its becoming fairly obvious that Chaos and Epic can not, or lets say should not, coexist as two separate PvP environments for Wurm. One will always be accused of stealing from the other, and probably rightly.

 

The most obvious decision would be to either delete one completely (Epic), or remove the PvP features from the other (Chaos). Or vice versa.

 

Admitting to that is probably one of the hardest things I've done on this forum. I started on day one of Epic and would call it my Wurm home. The idea of losing all of my progress, all my history, everything that I've built up in Wurm for the past several years... is a painful thought. If Epic was shut down and I was forced to start over almost from scratch on Freedom, I might quit. I know at least half a dozen people that have quit Wurm because they already feel like Epic is going to be shut down. Wurm is all about long term progression. Putting months and years of effort and work into your character, your deed, your items... that is what makes Wurm great in my opinion. Its what brings me back to it over and over again. So losing Epic would be hard. Not just for me but for everyone that has played Wurm there.

 

At the same time... shutting down Chaos, or removing PvP from it (again), would also be hard. The Chaos map is the oldest map in Wurm. It dates all the way back to the Wurmageddon. Its a piece of Wurm history that shouldn't just be tossed away. And its also the home of a lot of players. But more than that its been shown to me to be a gateway for Freedom players to experience PvP. They can go there with their established accounts and items and try out PvP, and many of them like it and would play there more. Having the ability to travel to a PvP environment and take part in Wurm PvP is a wonderful bridge between Freedom and PvP and something that should absolutely be encouraged.

 

I'm so glad I don't have to make the choices facing the devs right now. It seems like no matter what happens they will be dooming players to oblivion and losing them from the Wurm community. I think right now, since we do have direct acknowledgement that they are discussing and brainstorming the future, we need to come forward and make sure we speak about this stuff. Because if we don't then decisions will be made without our input and potentially very hazardous to the health of this community (PvP). I know so many of the PvPers on the forums feel like they have been shouting at the top of their lungs for decades only to be ignored, but really I feel like this is the moment.

 

Not since the dark ages of Wurm has the PvP community been this bad (small). It leaves the window open for extremely large changes because so few players will be drastically affected. There is a lot of potential right now. Imagine all the positive and constructive things you've been desiring in a Wurm PvP environment being implemented. Because from where I'm standing thats quite possible. If PvP is a long term goal for the development team. Then lets start giving some positive ideas and constructive discussion on it.

 

If Epic has to die for PvP to live again in Wurm... so be it. But I would at least like the ability to leave the sinking ship, and I know I'm not alone in that regard.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Just to clarify, forum pm is NOT the way to apply. 

 

I thought it had been said before, but if anyone does wish to volunteer as a developer for wurm they can email Budda with examples of work and see where it goes.

 

Lo5eAZE.jpg

See where it goes? How about starting with a simple answer to my e-mail at least?

There is absolutely no info about the process or any developer positions, so please tell me what you expect us to do then. Answering that by a simple e-mail obviously wasn't possible.

I even messaged you on Steam again after I recieved no answer to the e-mail, and guess what... you didn't replied as well.

Of couse I could have messaged you again and again until you answered, but I'm not running after a position I'm not recieving any infos about.

 

8 minutes ago, Redd said:

And a simple reply to his PM saying "please email me with examples of your work etc" is beyond buddas remit?

It looks like he's not even reading PMs, wich is highly unprofessional for someone in this position in my opinion.

9 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now