DevBlog

WSA: Mailing liquids

87 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

35 minutes ago, Corsan said:

This is a really bad idea. Even with the 'adjusted' (See : Supposedly fixed) prices. Coins are not easy to come by on this game. There's a lot of new folks who can't even 'get started'/make their first deed cost. You should be wanting to enhance trade, not make it harder on your player-base, thereby killing even more trade.

If this was an attempt to force the rich veterans of the game to use a money sink more often/drop more coin back into the economy...it's not likely to help in that respect either, as they are likely to just do some other cost-cutting means like resorting to sailing it themselves or maybe even resorting to getting villagers to do it for them (If they have them.). There's way too much lack of trust for people to hire a noob on to deliver something for them. (A problem with some of the game mechanics, and the history of bad things happening previously on your game.)

 

I have to agree that this will not effect the established players at all. Most will shrug off the COD cost, its not like most established players are buying a lot of liquids.

 

Milk was the first income I really had.  And I talked to the bulk of the people I sold to.  They were not established players, but newer players trying out different features of the game. They were testing out the new cooking system to see if they liked it or not.  For them even the 2c cod had an impact, some didn't know there was a cod cost and some who the small cost was actually too much for them.  I wasn't even aware that the liquid cost of 1c for any amount wasn't intended, its been that way since I started playing.    Again, just my personal opinion, but I believe this will hurt newer players with out really effecting the established player base.  It will have no beneficial effects on Wurm at all, again personal opinion.    

 

PS Just because it was driving me nuts. Fennel oil is actually .045 per plant "juiced" it shows as .05 if you do one due to rounding and .09 for two. Its 1000 per barrel not 900. 

Edited by Eleraan
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I'm not taking a stance on the change, as I don't care, I never sent/received liquids. But I just want to comment on using fennel oil as an example. This is typical most unlikely scenario in game, that someone wants to mail full barrel of fennel oil. Have you seen anyone selling full barrel of fennel oil. I haven't, I also don't see anyone ever even try to mail it.

 

Also about lowering mail costs to increase trading. In the past shipping cost was 10c to own server and 20c to other servers(for liquids that price was per unit). Was lowered to 1c to all servers. Did it increase the sales? Not really, while I don't have any hard numbers, I have always kept an eye on the trading forums.. There wasn't any massive influx of sales posts on forums after the change, basically nothing changed, even dyemakers were able to sell their goods with those fees. So I think it is quite safe to say, mail fees don't really affect your sales. If someone really needs your goods, they would come fetch it even on Xanadu, when mail costs were up to the roof. That leads me to the biggest probem in Wurms economy. People don't actually need anything, everyone can get anything themselves. It is good, when the devs want to make everyone self sufficient, but in that case they have to forget trading, because when everyone is self sufficient, why would they need something from others. Basically most of the recent QoL changes have decreased the demand. Cooking being exception, I think this was great feature, because it put some demand behind some materials, which were completely unused earlier.

 

To sum it up, if you want to increase trading, create demand for goods. Make people want/need something, this way you will also see more trades, no matter if mail cost is 1c or 10c.

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25 minutes ago, rixk said:

But I just want to comment on using fennel oil as an example. This is typical most unlikely scenario in game, that someone wants to mail full barrel of fennel oil. Have you seen anyone selling full barrel of fennel oil. I haven't, I also don't see anyone ever even try to mail it.

 

eleraan sells it...and with the old 10c/unit system a barrel of it would cost 1g10c to mail XD

 

2 hours ago, Eleraan said:

Just because it was driving me nuts. Fennel oil is actually .045 per plant "juiced" it shows as .05 if you do one due to rounding and .09 for two. Its 1000 per barrel not 900. 

thanks, didnt know that

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42 minutes ago, rixk said:

Also about lowering mail costs to increase trading. In the past shipping cost was 10c to own server and 20c to other servers(for liquids that price was per unit). Was lowered to 1c to all servers. Did it increase the sales? Not really, while I don't have any hard numbers, I have always kept an eye on the trading forums.

 

Well, to increase the sales, we would need a broader and larger community, hardly the case nowadays.

 

The forum and reduce price mailing feature did help the sales and players interaction. Most of the little markets are dead, the community as mentionned somewhere above is spread too thin (too many servers, not enough players on them... and some wayyyyyy too large servers too), so the mailing system is the way to sell things.

 

Not to mention personnal merchants have a 10% taxes and sucks at sellings arrows or armor sets or liquids altogether. We are still waiting for a bartender/barmaid option for our meals and drinks btw... you know, someone able to sell them without any decay.

 

I'm kinda on the fence with that change, yes, it does make more sense with the reduced price of 10c instead of 46c per barrels (basic item units), not a large change from the 1c for all though, so why fix something that ain't broken, it's a good fix for the combined items, like lumps, but once again, why not just set it at 1c for all.

 

It will not help in any ways with the dye / transmutation liquid / shitload of tiny items (ie. arrows) sales though, the new 'fix' not taking in account the stupid amounts being required to turn a tile or paint a BSB/boat/whatever bulky stuff (fix it plox) or providing a new way to mail more items at a cheaper cost.

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22 minutes ago, Pyro said:

 

eleraan sells it...and with the old 10c/unit system a barrel of it would cost 1g10c to mail XD

 

thanks, didnt know that

Really? And how many customers there are?

There has always been free alternative: boat/horse. From my experience the buyer usually paid/pays even extra for delivery. If someone didn't want to do deliveries(and the buyer didn't want to come to pick stuff up), there used to be people, who hauled stuff for them (again for a fee of course).

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...drat, I had a point, then rixk got there first.  Curse you!

 

But yeah, the problem with the economy isn't the mailing fees, it's that there just isn't a huge demand.  A few years back, a blank rare tool would go for 7-10s, now 4s is about right - this is in part due to the rare farmers, and in part due to most people who want rare tools already having them.  There is still a market for some things, and you can make enough money to cover premium and deed, but doing it through things that are easy to do (like milking or making bulks) will be a lot more effort - if it's easy, everyone will do it.  Honestly, if I were a newbie starting now, and wanting to find a niche, I'd go for serious foraging and botanizing.  You don't need anything much to start (some armour and a decent weapon would be good investments), you'll pick up a decent load of rare coins as you go (there's your starting income), and once your skills are high, there's always dye-makers who will be looking for high ql woad or acorns.  Plus cooks will be interested in your piles of nutmeg and cocoa.  You don't need to be premium to start, and you can move around while doing it (in fact, you kinda have to a bit), and you don't even have tools that you need to buy or maintain.

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Cuts into my booze money.

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2 hours ago, rixk said:

Really? And how many customers there are?

There has always been free alternative: boat/horse. From my experience the buyer usually paid/pays even extra for delivery. If someone didn't want to do deliveries(and the buyer didn't want to come to pick stuff up), there used to be people, who hauled stuff for them (again for a fee of course).

 

You said it, used to be. A Release to Deli trip could pay my deed for a month no problem, and the sellers would make sure it was a full hold (either single or multiple deliveries).

 

Buuuut there are more boat owners than sailors, server border teleports were added, sea trade as a business died... USE YOUR BOATS ye landlubbers.  An 8 hour trip was too much, you got your way, now go on your reduced time 2 hour trips and deliver your barrels.  Alternatively, post your sales as "pick up only".

 

If not, at least be honest about your casualing of the game and stop opposing land portals.

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2 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

If not, at least be honest about your casualing of the game and stop opposing land portals.

 

hmm...now that you mention it we could add mailing chars.

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4 minutes ago, Pyro said:

 

hmm...now that you mention it we could add mailing chars.

I wouldn't really recommend putting someone in a barrel and sealing it.  Can't even imagine the smell when it reaches its destination.

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3 hours ago, rixk said:

Really? And how many customers there are?

There has always been free alternative: boat/horse. From my experience the buyer usually paid/pays even extra for delivery. If someone didn't want to do deliveries(and the buyer didn't want to come to pick stuff up), there used to be people, who hauled stuff for them (again for a fee of course).

Actually I sell quite a few barrels of oils every week. Not just Fennel mind you but its in the list of them.  

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8 minutes ago, Eleraan said:

Actually I sell quite a few barrels of oils every week. Not just Fennel mind you but its in the list of them.  

I believe, that you sell oils, but I doubt anyone is specifically looking for a barrel full of fennel oil. Simply because cooking oils are required quite a bit in cooking. But fennel oil in particular - I just went through my recipe list(473 recipes, thanks for implementing search by ingredient feature), only 1(!) recipe had fennel oil as mandatory ingredient. Of course there might be few more recipes, which I dont have yet, but I'd say, while the demand for cooking oils is there.. noone will really care, when barrel of fennel oil shipping price would be 1g.

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Posted (edited)

21 hours ago, DevBlog said:

WSA.png

 

Update:

After ongoing discussion and community feedback, we'll be addressing a few things, firstly, liquids will now be charged 1c per 5 kgs, regardless of unit size, a small barrel of any liquid will now cost 10c (1c container 45 / 5 = 9c)

 

Secondly, this will now apply to all items that can be combined and mailed, hopefully improving trade of smaller combined items without damaging bulk trade.

 

We appreciate all feedback, but I do stress that these threads are the very point of warnings like this is to provide information and avoid the changes just being pushed on as was done in the past, so keep it constructive and avoid bashing the devs!

 

 

I appreciate that the devs listen to our comments and suggestions. I would offer that the wording of the WSA could have been better written to solicit suggestions rather than a firm stance in past tense of an upcoming change and we just have to lump it.

 

This:

 

21 hours ago, DevBlog said:

it’s come to the attention of the dev team and it’s been discussed, with the decision to change how combined goods in general work.

 

Could have been:

 

It's come to the attention of the dev team that the mailing cost of 1c no matter the volume is too low. We would like the playerbase to offer up suggestions on a possible fix that would raise the mailing costs to an acceptable level but still allow the trade of liquids.

 

 

Just a suggestion ;)

Edited by Saicotic
bad grammar as usual
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10 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Update:

After ongoing discussion and community feedback, we'll be addressing a few things, firstly, liquids will now be charged 1c per 5 kgs, regardless of unit size, a small barrel of any liquid will now cost 10c (1c container 45 / 5 = 9c)

 

Secondly, this will now apply to all items that can be combined and mailed, hopefully improving trade of smaller combined items without damaging bulk trade.

 

We appreciate all feedback, but I do stress that these threads are the very point of warnings like this is to provide information and avoid the changes just being pushed on as was done in the past, so keep it constructive and avoid bashing the devs!

 

I would like to know how the mailing system was being abused to mail liquids, was it just a case of the fun police noticing that a full large amphora could be mailed for 1c?

 

If someone wanted to order enough dye to paint there knarr it will cost 45c.

 

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There's no abuse, or any real thought process beyond: The Game is the Game is the Game is the Game.

 

There's a long line of posts like this, warnings or patches, and otherwise very short-sighted and non-beneficial changes that affect bottom line negatively. I honestly believe decisions are made by gamers first, and nothing more. Really thinking about it, the costs involved in taking the time to 'discuss' something of which offers absolutely no business value and then proceed to further increase the vitriolic attitudes of your customer base is very foolish and amateurish.

 

Almost always in the real world, things of this nature go through a filter. Until these attitudes change, and things like this stop happening, I'd expect the negative counts of everything to continue. There's a lot more to this, with it both simple and complex, but i actually get paid to do this. So good luck.

 

<3 wurm.

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Regarding these two game mechanics:

 

1) charging a fee (any fee) to mail something

2) limiting what can be mailed (except the obvious things that cannot be picked up and placed into the mailbox.)

 

Can any dev please explain how these add a positive benefit to Code Club or Wurm Online players?  I don't care from what angle you explain it.  Be it economic or otherwise.  

I just want to know why such mechanics exist because I see no positive benefit whatsoever to either of these things.

 

Thank you.

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6 hours ago, rixk said:

I believe, that you sell oils, but I doubt anyone is specifically looking for a barrel full of fennel oil. Simply because cooking oils are required quite a bit in cooking. But fennel oil in particular - I just went through my recipe list(473 recipes, thanks for implementing search by ingredient feature), only 1(!) recipe had fennel oil as mandatory ingredient. Of course there might be few more recipes, which I dont have yet, but I'd say, while the demand for cooking oils is there.. noone will really care, when barrel of fennel oil shipping price would be 1g.

I've sold quite a few barrels of fennel. I sell 4 of the cooking oils and they all sell including fennel.  I believe they are using it to alter affinity.  As it stands all the oils will cost the same to ship.  0.o not sure how we got on a huge tangent about if fennel oil sells >.> 

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1 hour ago, Shazaam said:

There's no abuse, or any real thought process beyond: The Game is the Game is the Game is the Game.

 

There's a long line of posts like this, warnings or patches, and otherwise very short-sighted and non-beneficial changes that affect bottom line negatively. I honestly believe decisions are made by gamers first, and nothing more. Really thinking about it, the costs involved in taking the time to 'discuss' something of which offers absolutely no business value and then proceed to further increase the vitriolic attitudes of your customer base is very foolish and amateurish.

 

Almost always in the real world, things of this nature go through a filter. Until these attitudes change, and things like this stop happening, I'd expect the negative counts of everything to continue. There's a lot more to this, with it both simple and complex, but i actually get paid to do this. So good luck.

 

<3 wurm.

I like your words very much and you've arranged them interestingly, but I can't really tell what it is you're trying to say.  You get paid to do what?

 

I'm still really surprised to see all these many people are making a business out of sending liquids to others.  Can't help but think there's an underlying practice I'm not privy to.  I don't necessarily want to be privy to it, just as I didn't really care whether or not deed lamps needed oil refills.  I'm just getting really skeptical that this is about vendors and trade, rather than the convenient use of a mechanic that was never intended for how ever it is being used.

 

People can certainly get very upset when such things are changed.  Fountain pans being one of many examples.  Most people don't enjoy seeing others get upset, but I can understand why things were brought back in line with the greater schema.

 

In any case, what is it you get paid for?

 

It really seems like quite a few players think the devs stay up at night around a campfire dreaming up new ways to screw everybody over.  Where their livelihood is concerned, I'm pretty sure that's not something they are doing.  Call me crazy, but I kinda think it's a fairly sane assumption.

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Believe the issue is between players that play-style includes physical trading and trying to add more economical purpose with Wagons/Ships/Carts

 

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On the one hand I can see why it was done (to encourage player interactions since the biggest selling point of WO is its community).  On the other hand delivery work is horrible, long hours of sailing, the person you are delivering to logs off and you wait hours for them to come back etc.

 

There is a solution to those issues out there, but then that would require active thought.

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18 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

On the one hand I can see why it was done (to encourage player interactions since the biggest selling point of WO is its community).  On the other hand delivery work is horrible, long hours of sailing, the person you are delivering to logs off and you wait hours for them to come back etc.

 

There is a solution to those issues out there, but then that would require active thought.

 

If I order something and they have to bring it to me, the time it takes to sail or travel is terrible.  Someone will set sail to me after we seal the deal.  5 hours later I need to go do something.  (maybe sleep or work or other things that encompass that thing called real life)  I do understand that this sometimes will cause an issue.  But even the person delivering to me would have sworn it wasn't going to take that long.  But well the wind changed, the game lagged or 100 of the other things that cause a very long delivery time to be even longer than anyone anticipated.   Now the delivery person finally makes it to my deed 10 hours later.  GL chat.....Anyone know Pashka?  She ordered something and has logged off.  KOS her.  Do not deal with her!    I have heard these cries more than once.  Perhaps not that fast but who knows when I would be able to get back on.  

 

Travel in this game is horrid on a good day.  Impossible on a bad one.  Until that gets worked on and made better (yes being able to set the borders does help but we need more) forcing people to travel is not going to work.  No I do not think the runes give enough either.

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Quote

I like your words very much and you've arranged them interestingly, but I can't really tell what it is you're trying to say.  You get paid to do what?

 

I'm dancing around terminology that some would call 'dev-bashing', but in my reality, are called management principles and effective language.

 

change management..

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7 hours ago, Saicotic said:

 

I appreciate that the devs listen to our comments and suggestions. I would offer that the wording of the WSA could have been better written to solicit suggestions rather than a firm stance in past tense of an upcoming change and we just have to lump it.

 

This:

 

 

Could have been:

 

It's come to the attention of the dev team that the mailing cost of 1c no matter the volume is too low. We would like the playerbase to offer up suggestions on a possible fix that would raise the mailing costs to an acceptable level but still allow the trade of liquids.

 

 

Just a suggestion ;)

 

100% agree with this. I think it is about time the Wurm development team starts to work with the community and be open to "open discussion" before making "game changing" changes. Obviously, the people paying to play this game want to see it improved, and I hope the people "improving" the game has the same feelings? (sure cannot make everyone happy, but I feel this compromise was way better than past changes)

 

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15 minutes ago, Bramson said:

 

100% agree with this. I think it is about time the Wurm development team starts to work with the community and be open to "open discussion" before making "game changing" changes. Obviously, the people paying to play this game want to see it improved, and I hope the people "improving" the game has the same feelings? (sure cannot make everyone happy, but I feel this compromise was way better than past changes)

 

Should a game developer really ask permission from the community any time a change is made?  Game creation by democracy has been tried in the past and it has always been pretty terrible.  I think the devs did their due diligence here just by making this announcement then quickly adapting the plan when an overwhelming community response came.

 

The amount of negativity in this thread is astounding honestly.  I've been bouncing around many MMOs and if you're with a company like PWE, EA games, Ubisoft or the like, there would never be an announcement like this, let alone changing the plan after the fact.

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1 hour ago, Toma said:

Should a game developer really ask permission from the community any time a change is made?  Game creation by democracy has been tried in the past and it has always been pretty terrible.  I think the devs did their due diligence here just by making this announcement then quickly adapting the plan when an overwhelming community response came.

 

The amount of negativity in this thread is astounding honestly.  I've been bouncing around many MMOs and if you're with a company like PWE, EA games, Ubisoft or the like, there would never be an announcement like this, let alone changing the plan after the fact.

 

Eve online is a game where the people vote in CSMs (customers/players) that work with the dev team to produce positive content, it has worked great for the game. Proven sub numbers over the life of game (voted in by the players)

Haven and Hearth gets a lot of feedback from community - and makes changes off that and it works. ( of course they rush out some changes and upsets the community, but they listen )

 

World of Warcraft, Blizzard, publicly tests all patches and game changes prior to release, and listens to the majority of players feedback who are testing the changes. ( and a lot of things change prior to a release )

 

At the end of the day, you wont make everyone happy, but my point is communication is a big part of any "online game".

 

Wurm is not a AAA title like your comparing it to, it is a niche game which has a lot of potential with below 4000 premium accounts http://jenn001.game.wurmonline.com/mrtg/paying.html

 

If you read what I wrote, I am asking for more communication between the development of the game and the customers (prem players). 

At the end of the day, I am content on how this change ended Thank you Budda. I also, appreciate them considering items like lumps, where you can now combine them and send at a weigh limit versus per item.

 

 

 

 

 

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