Propheteer

Hey Devs, Why raid if all the loot is on un-tauntable merchants or alts

114 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, armyskin said:

We put up with, so why should it change just because we left and now you guys are dealing with the same things we did?

 

I saw most MR supported taunting in that Taunt thread.

Also, I'm not from the old-school wurm Generation and Epic had the basic issues that chaos have sorted, so I never ran into these problems before Chaos.
now that I have it's rubbish and it isn't fun to raid. [Not that Epic and Raiding in general aren't plauged with issues as OP mentioned on top of that]

But if your argument is "well we put up with it, so can you"...no lol. That's a poor argument for the games future and health on a subject that if we stritctly made pvp focused would only logically gather the support.

The issue with WO is, people care too much about the stuff these deeds contain or the lands they protect.

Items need to flow over and deed/lands need to change, otherwise stalemates/pop will just continue to drop and happen.
This is what creates pvp and makes pvp worth while in Wurm Online.

If we had a server that allowed you to have no risk of losing items on death, or your deed being disbanded, 
and you had another server which is WO, and we had a raid happen on each, which do you think would be more fun?

I was supporting changes whilst in JKC, I was supporting changes to raiding whilst on Elevation and on both times I was the one being raided, lol. 

Support new changes/future fun, instead of past "i did it, you should too"..

PS, you didn't argue my post about defending being too easy :)
 

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it's too easy to log off in a mine in completely saftey behind a 90ql mine door with all your stuff.  One PvP encounter (defeat) should not result in a TOTAL loss of inventory, sorry.


Didn't we argue in JKC that Karma mechanic was a good update because you can create other routes into a deed via tunnels etc?
You're basically implying a succesful raid means you lose all your items.
I guess there would be no counter attacks whilst the enemy got tired raiding right?
I guess there would be no other ways out of the deed other than the way the enemy came in right?

All wrong.
 

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It's too easy to setup safe mines to store bulk items.  Having a safe mine isn't an issue,  Having 27 safe mines is an issue.


Most deeds have atleast 10 tunnels leading into different areas with mine doors. Mine doors are an issue.

 

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One PvP encounter (defeat) should not result in a TOTAL loss of inventory, sorry.  If losing a fight requires me to make another plate set, so be it, but I'll be damned if I'm going to find and enchant a whole new set of smithing tools because you're THAT greedy.

But you should have a 5 minute lo timer behind a mine door whilst an attacker in on deed risking everything with no such luxury?
You can basically poke at the attacker and have less risk/more easy to kill him and grab his corpse/log off than he can on you?

My arguements were it's too easy.

You didn't argue none of those points.

And the OP suggestions do not create the scenarios you are suggesting in the slightest, but a dream world.


Also, JKC tried to catapault a war deed whilst MRC were offline many times, lol, never worked.
Maybe with the right changes deeds can actually be lived in as they're suppose to be and the chance of getting caught by a player
instead of relying on an alarm on a dead deed that holds your lands would be better too.

Another thing JKC once argued for.

Edited by Mclovin

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I basically stopped reading your suggestions after "make it easier".

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you are a hypocrite to your own argument by keeping defending easy

Edited by Mclovin

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9 minutes ago, Mclovin said:

Also, JKC tried to catapault a war deed whilst MRC were offline many times, lol, never worked.
Maybe with the right changes deeds can actually be lived in as they're suppose to be and the chance of getting caught by a player
instead of relying on an alarm on a dead deed that holds your lands would be better too.

yeah that's because people would walk on perimeter or literally straight onto the deed for no good reason
not because it doesn't work lol

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oh ye i forgot the obvious

 

remove twitter

 

would severely limit expansion past what you can actively maintain, would change it away from "build it and forget until your #raidalarm irc tab starts flashing"

Edited by Propheteer
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5 minutes ago, Soil said:

yeah that's because people would walk on perimeter or literally straight onto the deed for no good reason
not because it doesn't work lol


pls. people see /who is high and log in alts to check. Happened many times at Kinder, you guys were a shamble at best but you did manage times to not pop the alarm and still get caught. 


[remove /who] nobody needs to know.

Edited by Mclovin

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I never said to make any thing easy, why if someone doesnt support one thing they are automatically supporting the opposite?

 

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37 minutes ago, Mclovin said:


Didn't we argue in JKC that Karma mechanic was a good update because you can create other routes into a deed via tunnels etc?

 

 

The removal of village teleport was a good update because it disallowed being able to teleport anywhere on the server at will.  I fail to see how that has anything to do with having multiple tunnels to get into a deed (which are even more effortlessly walled off by attackers than mined out by defenders).

 

37 minutes ago, Mclovin said:

You're basically implying a succesful raid means you lose all your items.   If you get your way, yes that's right.  No merchants, no alts, nowhere to put items that I don't raid with, and sorry I don't carry smithing tools on me at all times, including HoTA.
I guess there would be no counter attacks whilst the enemy got tired raiding right?   Elaborate please.
I guess there would be no other ways out of the deed other than the way the enemy came in right?  After you get finished walling off every entrance to the deed and griefing tunnels, probably not.
 

 

 

37 minutes ago, Mclovin said:

Most deeds have atleast 10 tunnels leading into different areas with mine doors. Not by a longshot.  Mine doors are an issue in numbers, yes.
 

But you should have a 5 minute lo timer behind a mine door whilst an attacker in on deed risking everything with no such luxury?  Like discounting the luxury of being able to leave, the element of surprise and not being confined?  Nice try.
You can basically poke at the attacker and have less risk/more easy to kill him and grab his corpse/log off than he can on you?   Show me a single video where this happened and the attacker(s) didn't have derpies.

And the OP suggestions do not create the scenarios you are suggesting in the slightest, but a dream world.   You can paint whatever picture you like, but raiding in it's current form already provides a sufficient ability for the attackers to grief the enemy deed (killing every horse, sanding all the crops, mixing all the QL sorted BSB's, stealing all building mats that would be used to rebuild.  I don't see how getting 100% of my tools and items is necessary.


Also, JKC tried to catapault a war deed whilst MRC were offline many times, lol, never worked. 
Maybe with the right changes deeds can actually be lived in as they're suppose to be and the chance of getting caught by a player
instead of relying on an alarm on a dead deed that holds your lands would be better too.


Another thing JKC once argued for.  I never argued for that, and I also think different players/kingdoms argued about it for different reasons, namely due to the change to chaining towers for influence.

 

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The removal of village teleport was a good update because it disallowed being able to teleport anywhere on the server at will.  I fail to see how that has anything to do with having multiple tunnels to get into a deed (which are even more effortlessly walled off by attackers than mined out by defenders).


 

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I guess there would be no other ways out of the deed other than the way the enemy came in right?  After you get finished walling off every entrance to the deed and griefing tunnels, probably not.


This was probably one of the biggest arguments from JKC said to "improve infrastructure to deeds" if karma-ability removes you being able to travel to the deed whilst a raid was taking place. Walling off on deed does nothing since you can bash from inside the saftey of a mine. + the reinforced tunnels leading out would be hours to break through.

I mentioned this because the argument of why karma being removed, also fits for this, as if the argument was you can still gain access without karma, well, you can leave without karma too, right?

Also the pointsoreo mentioned. - running to otherside of deed - leaving through tunnels to escape local and the LO timer..etc..lol

The rest is repeating a stance. 

If you want your items to be safe, put them in your strongest deed where players will log in to defend, otherwise you will lose your items.
Is the reality of a pvp server too harsh? You're somebody who will claim they live in iraq a combat zone, but reality is you live in the green zone where it's comfy. 
You want these mechanical insurances to keep your items safe instead of relying on your kingdom/people your own actions/buildings to keep them safe.

Welcome to the problem of wurm raiding.

Still haven't heard how it's not easier to defend than attack.
Since arguments were that we're trying to make raiding easy whilst you're keeping defending easier ;)

None of your points are reality.

My reality is 3 years on Epic under the mechanics, yours is what your fear of losing items tells you.
The other changes should be tested on a test server to settle the other theories you have. 


 

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You can basically poke at the attacker and have less risk/more easy to kill him and grab his corpse/log off than he can on you?   Show me a single video where this happened and the attacker(s) didn't have derpies.


So facts rely on videos now? ok, post a video with every wrong point you just made. 

Edited by Mclovin

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@Devs, clearly the fear of losing items is stopping the Games intended gameplay around raiding.

I don't care for my items so my thoughts on how an enemy should be able to take them are pure and non biast. 
I also don't care for gaining items, I just care for the fun that surrounds that
I am reading fear from these people who disagree with no real points which match reality of what happens.
I put this down to lack of experience with mechanics on Epic and mechanics modifed on WU to test some of these theories.

A test server with the changes suggested to then apply proper feedback should be made to settle the fears they have.

Edited by Mclovin

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pvp shouldn't have all these ways to escape loss of items, allow them to taunt, pvp needs less loopholes and metagaming.

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6 minutes ago, Mclovin said:


This was probably one of the biggest arguments from JKC said to "improve infrastructure to deeds" if karma-ability removes you being able to travel to the deed whilst a raid was taking place. Walling off on deed does nothing since you can bash from inside the saftey of a mine. + the reinforced tunnels leading out would be hours to break through.  The argument was being able to teleport from Kratos to Eden in seconds as opposed to having to sail/ride over, and that raiding MR deeds was impossible as a result when combined with the problem of being a lesser populated kingdom, given that they had deeds all over the server.  The argument was NOT in support of preventing people from being able to defend their own deed.  MR wanted to continue to be able to have 10+ people teleport across the server to repel an attack.

I mentioned this because the argument of why karma being removed, also fits for this, as if the argument was you can still gain access without karma, well, you can leave without karma too, right?  No, you can't teleport if enemies are in local.

Also the pointed oreo mentioned.

The rest is repeating a stance.   A stance that gives the largest kingdom population every advantage when it comes to raiding.

You're somebody who will claim they live in iraq a combat zone, but reality is you live in the green zone where it's comfy.   Just because it's a PvP server doesn't mean people want to PvP every minute of every day, and pay someone else to do non-PvP tasks.
You want these mechanical insurances to keep your items safe instead of relying on your kingdom/people your own actions/buildings to keep them safe.   And your appetite for easy loot is insatiable, to the point you're willing to completely kill the Chaos population to get just one more drake set.

Still haven't heard how it's not easier to defend than attack.   Never said it wasn't.
Since arguments were that we're trying to make raiding easy whilst you're keeping defending easier ;)  I'm not the one proposing changes to suit my personal greed.

Oh and Niki, since you have absolutely zero interest or experience with PvP, feel free to stop posting anytime.

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you have clearly shown in the previous posts the lack of understanding of the karma arguments, maybe you was on freedom because you were losing deeds idk.

The arguement AGAINST karma, was not being able to access blocked off deeds.
The argument to COUNTER that, was better infrastructure and tunnels will mean a deed can always most likely be accesed. 

If that argument was applied to JKC deeds [it was] - you are able to leave deed via a tunnel at over 50% of the deeds you have.
Again, if you're able to gain access to a deed, you can leave the same deed. You aren't confined to anything unless you really derp up.

 

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And your appetite for easy loot is insatiable, to the point you're willing to completely kill the Chaos population to get just one more drake set.


keep the loot on freedom, keep it on your alts, keep it in a bank on all those alts, keep it in the biggest deed on Chaos [Kyara]

Raiding isn't fun, we're focusing on that not your items mate. Nobody cares.


Better to stop repeating ourselves, im gonna allow other opinions to come through, test server for the changes is my last stance on this; If it doesn't change then meh, it'll die out anyway because it isn't fun.

Edited by Mclovin

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7 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

Oh and Niki, since you have absolutely zero interest or experience with PvP, feel free to stop posting anytime.

That's probably one of the biggest problems with pvp posters :P the pvp forums are >>> that way mate. Otherwise we can all post here last I checked. Devs listening to "pvp experts" has gotten the current situation to where it is, none of you experts seem terribly thrilled with that result either, perhaps try some pvp noob ideas. Who knows, you might find a good'un among the bad ideas.

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@Pingpong, unlike wargasm who basically wants to live on freedom mechanics on a pvp server, I support freedomers posting ideas.

Niki has shown more of a PvP attitude towards the subject than Wargasm, by stating a true fact. It's a pvp server, don't allow meta/mechanics to
make it virtually impossible to gain items once a deed has been raided. The player has to defend with his kingdom to keep items safe.

Again@Wargasm if what you say is true, then many deeds were raided on epic and tons of items were lost. guess what. nope.
again, nice theories on how things work, but you're wrong. 

Video for the facts please.

@tauntable merchants. They should become Tauntable once the deed is drained? 

Edited by Mclovin
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Merchants should be tauntable on a pvp server simple as that, there should not be a 100% unbreakable safe location for loot.

Edited by ausimus
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I agree with a lot of what's been posted in here. Raiding just isn't worth the time investment and risk. However, we also have to look at the side of how raiding evolved over the years from doing some damage and looting to pancaking deeds -> making people quit the game.

 

 

 

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after skip-reading most of this thread theres one point here that i have to agree with, completely disregarding wether or not you should be able to taunt merchants.

 

and that is first and foremost fixing the catapulting code. this would already go a long way to make raiding easier by getting rid of

- the need to relocate your catapult just because random wall xyz cant be catapulted from the tiles you are at and needs you to move all the way from the south side to the west side to actually hit.

- the time window this takes which defenders can use to rebuild half of the house you already killed off.

- "legacy" buildings that are completely bugged and have certain parts that just can not be taken down because of collapsing structure warnings.

 

i'd guess that this would be an important first change that would already reduce the frustration during raids by quite a bit. so do it, and after that see if it had any impact on raiding already. you can still evaluate possible balance changes to mine door damage, repairing speed, maximum catapult damage per shot and other factors after this. but making changes on the foundation of how the catapulting code currently works will probably just create even more need for those later on.

 

tldr: fix catapult code first, make tweaks after

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I was gonna go into a long post with examples and explaining things, but it's not worth it for some of the people here.  Instead here's a few things

 

1. I do agree chaos mechanics probably should be brought inline with epics.  I supported the merchant taunting and think it's ok.  1 hour log off on deed is ok, sure it's not perfect, but if you spend more than an hour going after one person specifically maybe you should question your priorities.  I wouldn't even consider myself worth wasting an hour on in a video game, but in my 7 years I don't think I've ever logged off to avoid death and my scale would drop anyway so maybe this would help on chaos if drake/scale dropped when logging in enemy local maybe, but it probably should be tweaked slightly so maybe its like be out of the world for a min or 5 mins so you don't lose your gear due to a bug disconnecting you instantly or something dumb

 

2.  Something I keep saying.  There's no way to distinguish the difference between a war deed to play kingdom influence games and a deed people "live" at and keep their stuff like a capital or home deed.  There is a very very very fine line between balancing raiding to allow war deed removal vs enabling destructive behavior that helps kill player retention.  People can troll how if you don't want to lose your stuff you're a coward or a freedomer or whatever, sure, have fun, but don't blame the devs for people leaving chaos/epic/wurm if players are the problem.  It's exactly what MRC was doing when they wanted "total map domination" and one of the major reasons I didn't want to come back to help on chaos, I didn't agree with it even though I wouldn't be the one being trashed on.  Who cares if you can't break into little timmys mine and steal his pickaxe and mallet, or maybe he has fancy armor you can't get.  Who cares, you can still drain the deed and little timmy can still fight you another day and you can still get the chance to get his fancy armor or mallet. 

 

3.  Catapulting/treb shot arc is the most mind numbing frustrating rage inducing piece of banana peels and making aiming for tile A hitting tile A actually work is perfectly fine

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36 minutes ago, Mclovin said:

Again@Wargasm if what you say is true, then many deeds were raided on epic and tons of items were lost. guess what. nope.
again, nice theories on how things work, but you're wrong. 

 

I don't play on epic, I never played on Epic (for longer than about 2 hours my first week playing), and I don't give a damn about the three people still playing on Epic.  I don't pretend to understand the differences between Epic and Chaos, but I'm not the one proposing changes every 3 days because you feel wronged because someone didn't lay their drake set at your feet recently enough.  Stop trying to profess to me about how much better things are on Epic, because if things are that great, you'd still be there.

 

I get that you have no motivation to put forth effort into anything other than quick open field kills on inexperienced players, but that doesn't magically make everyone agree with you.

 

 

Edited by Wargasm
Grammarz

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49 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

Oh and Niki, since you have absolutely zero interest or experience with PvP, feel free to stop posting anytime.

Why would I pvp in this game if it's garbage in it's current state? You can keep acting like you know me, what I do in Wurm is usually private. No one knows me well enough to say, also there is a thing called alts Wargasm. We really are just people on a forum and all you ever do is troll me because your life is bad I guess and that's all you can do to make you feel better.

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Why isnt the system overhauled in a different t direction , instead of profit? For example, make other gains for obtaining / Controlling more territory. Not sure with my limited knowledge if this is the current case, but rewards of a different type than loot can be implemented to make taking over deeds worth it.

 

Something like a sovereignty map. The more your kingdom controls, the more bonuses to skill gains/chances of rare loot dropping from Valerei mobs/rare window success/etc your kingdom gets. If someone drops a deed within your zone of influence, you loose influence, so you need to keep towers and deeds up to maintain it, just like (if I understand correctly) it's the current case. Other bonuses can be cheaper costs of deed upkeeps for certain tiers of influence, +1 guard from guard towers after a certain tier, and other tangible rewards.

 

This can make taking over deeds lucrative, and has no need to influence personal assets of a player. If the lack of silver on a deed token is an issue, you can also give bonuses to deeds who have more money in their coffers. This encourages players to take the risk of getting drained for high amounts of silver, or forsake the skill/rare%/etc bonus entirely. 

 

I don't think the solution is in personal loot inside characters or merchants. I think with a little work put into the current system by changing some mechanics, it can be made much more rewarding, without sacrificing player comforts.

Edited by Angelklaine

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I haven't read the whole thread, but I'd like to make some points.

 

The paradigm of raiding has evolved drastically overtime. Back in 2007-2009 you'd mostly only raid to drain a deed and loot what you can get from what houses you can breach. Since then defenses have become much more complex and tedious to breach through players naturally using all mechanics they can in their favour such as surface mining the token down into a pit, mine doors every other tile below dirt walls. These things never used to be a part of deed designs so raiding took way less time. This has made raids more of a mass operation where if you're raiding a place, you're gonna be there for a long time and have to do alot of damage to the place.

 

Another thing that's changed is loot, chaos server is pretty much at end game phase right now. The capitals of some of the biggest kingdoms have extremely valuable loot. Valuables in wurm hold RL monetary value, some being worth hundreds possibly thousands in large amounts like moon metal, drake, scale, the artifacts. There's not alot you can do about this, you cannot take it away from the game, but you can make it so its not possible to hide it away completely from enemies. With the risk being greater, you'd likely see less loot being on chaos, but there'd still be more loot to get from raiding since it's just too inconvenient to have all of it locked up on freedom.

 

There's plenty ideas in this thread to make raiding easier and loot less easy to permanently secure on logged off alts or merchants. With these changes there'd be more reason to raid places and it'd be less boring.

 

I also think raiding should serve some other purpose. I was thinking maybe draining deed tokens successfully contributes to some server wide kingdom success league or something, strictly for raiding nothing to do with the current kingdom success stuff from slaying kingdom officials. Being ontop of the league table for raiding could give some sort of bonus that comes with a con to prevent snowballing an already overpowered kingdom, maybe being ontop means their deeds are huge targets due to a quadruble drain amount or something lucrative.

 

That's raiding out the way, there also needs to be pvp changes but I'm kinda bored of typing. :P

 

Edit,

 

One last idea I had, chaos needs to be reset theres no arguing that, but when it does hota needs to be changed in where or how its placement works because right now most kingdoms are all only interested in huddling close to hota, the entire west coast of chaos is kinda pointless to settle in because if you want to actively attend hota you'll need to make a route there thats secure.

 

Another mechanic to make more of the map used could be creating area buffs for citizens of deeds that are placed in that area.

For example, split the map into 4 sqaures with 2 imaginary lines going horizontally and vertically through the middle.

Apply a useful buff to each of those 4 areas, none overpowering the other and any deeds founded there give citizens of that deed a buff. Perhaps in order to stop kingdoms from just having multiple deeds in each quadrant to have atleast some of their citizens benefiting from all the buffs, make it so a kingdom can only benefit from the bonuses of where the capital is.

Edited by Madt

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i havent read anything and im also a carebear but i want to say something too

 

Twitter and /who is toxic

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