puncher

GOLDEN VALLEY 2.0 WHERE ARE U!

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So I need to say up front that I love WURM  LOVEE WURM LOVEEEEEE WURMMMMM LOVEEEEE WURMM

Ok so if i sound a bit passionate and frustrated I ask your patience but I am not going to sugar coat this much.

 

Here is a quote from an article listed here

Golden Valley 2.0

We have started working on the foundation of a new tutorial and  will be replacing the Golden Valley map that is currently live. Currently the project is still in its early stages, with planning and preperation being done before introducing the new map. As Golden Valley is also the login server, migrating databases is a little tricky, so due to this we will simply be changing the map with all items and buildings remaining. We will then have the current tutorial operating while we build the new tutorial behind the scenes.

 

Current "Golden Valley" accounts will be teleported to the tutorial while we work on the new tutorial, and any deeds on the server will be disbanded. decay will also be raised in order to clear remaining items and buildings out. From there we will begin work on building the new tutorial. Once the new tutorial is finished, Golden Valley accounts will once again be able to roam.

 

This will be occuring in the next few months, depending on how quickly planning progresses, and will include a week or two warning prior to the actual change. Once we retire the current map it will be available to download for Wurm Unlimited servers, it will have all roads and transforming/mines in it, but no buildings.

 

Where is it?

  I just went through the tutorial trying to help new people.  Its crap garbage and borderline USELESS.  And its evident that's a known fact by this post made getting close to a year ago.

 

Did Wu kill it and not enough time?

How about the 500 + recipes and new cooking system did that kill it?

Run out of money could not budget it?

Did the community guy working on it leave? Quit?  Drop dead?  Wanted a raise?

 

Like I said I am a little tart about this and this is why.

YOU as a game company have ONE FRAKING CHANCE to make a great impression and that's on the first Screen people come to and interact with.

Gamers now days Listen with their  eyes and think with their emotions. 

Its not a matter of logic its a matter of what kicks that drug in the brain into high gear and makes them FEEL good.

 

So let me tell you unless you are marketing  a game on its first impressions and interactions with today's game people you are slitting your own throat and giving up any chance of a thriving community.

I am an 8 year veteran of Wurm and have been playing computer games for 27 years when games were Donkey Kong and Pac man.  Trust me when I tell you these things I have so far by my calculations invested over 75,000 hours in gaming.  I will try a new game and drop kick that sucker in a heart beat if it cant even keep my attention in the tutorial.  And I am a patient person and even willing to forgive a lot of errors.

The kids and new gamers you got about 1 minute flat to make an impression that makes them think.  WURM is very capable of doing this and making it happen.

 

WO already got its butt beat down by WU.  That by the buy once never pay again cash grab .

 

Do you care about the WO community? Because I mean you must that cooking update was insane!!

 

I swear sometimes I want to cry when i see what wurm can be and how it gets hamstrung by things that just don't need to be.

 

So how about an update on this lets get it going. 

 

I know the cooking thing is causing major headaches getting to WU but WO is the constant money not the one time shot.

 

Cant milk this cow you dont feed it with new players and good community and with this tutorial Id say were gonna be steak dinner at this rate.

 

Again sorry to be blunt but this is unacceptable.  I did not go through a long laundry list of things to change but I can if you like.  I am even willing to volunteer my energy and time to help if you need it.

 

 

Again I LOVE WURM.. Lets kick the tires and light the fires and get rolling.

 

 

 

 

Edited by puncher
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calm down, dont get all excited and wall of text-y.

 

Like I said in that announcement, it would be a long process, and has been listed in the roadmap as well. The early announcement was to provide warning for players who play on GV.

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Also, lay off the caps lock, it's bad for your health

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Early warning was 9 months ago and IM sitting here in the tutorial face to face answering question from noobs who are so confused by the tutorial its ...maddening. 

 

Well if its on the road map how about we fix some easy stuff on the current tutorial or at least give some kind visual kick to it.

 

Simple stuff like actual Boats in the harbor?

 

Street lamps?

 

More then just three different road types?

 

I have laid off the caps lock  as I was doing damage to my keyboard.  They do though server a purpose and seem to do it well.

 

 

 

Edited by puncher

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because those things don't add anything, there is a dedicated help channel for the tutorial server visible to ALL support staff, GV literally has every single ingame member of support staff available to ask questions.

 

It is in the works, but also has to tie in with the new UI coming, so there's the need to time the two together, as the UI change will ultimately change how we teach new players the game and also what we teach them.

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I actually hope that the new tutorial is closer to what wurm really is, since I always thought it's a little weird to have that quest like linear tutorial for wurm, when wurm itself doesn't play like this at all, meaning it gives wrong impression to players.
Most people I have met in wurm that are actually staying and not stopping to play after just a few days or weeks, are those who seek the freedom that wurm provides, being able to do whatever you want to do and NOT being led by your hand.

 

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Ok so I appreciate the explanation that its working with the new UI

 

And I get its going to teach wurm to new players better which is great.

 

But right now what your doing is by having this current tutorial you are hoping and praying that they meet somebody in game like the AMISH that are capable of teaching new people how the game works.

 

That is putting a pretty big burden on your player base without so much as a Please help us.

 

Maybe I have a misunderstanding of Wurms gaming model.  I thought the way games worked was to  Bring in players to teach the game. 

 

Then by adding in a good experience they premium up and are added to the game community offering a financial reward to Code club and providing the ability to do other things.

 

Have I misunderstood this model?  Because if its just to blow off new players now and hope the new UI and Gold 2 integration work then I guess thats that. 

 

Btw most people just as a fact are Visual based not text or hearing.  Its great that we have a chat channel where the whole structure can see it.  But people want visual information which

 

is why body language is so important in conversations.

 

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19 minutes ago, Miretta said:

I actually hope that the new tutorial is closer to what wurm really is, since I always thought it's a little weird to have that quest like linear tutorial for wurm, when wurm itself doesn't play like this at all, meaning it gives wrong impression to players.

Sounds as if you're thinking of the previous tutorial, that had you chopping a tree and making a few things - to teach the very basics of how to interact.

 

The current tutorial is just walking around and getting a wall of text - the is no real interaction. Given the basic questions that tend to get asked I suspect many don't even bother with the tutorial.

 

IMO, it would be far better to have that wall of text elsewhere as reference material, and have people learn by doing. At least to as a way of learning the basics.

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

because those things don't add anything, there is a dedicated help channel for the tutorial server visible to ALL support staff, GV literally has every single ingame member of support staff available to ask questions.

 

It is in the works, but also has to tie in with the new UI coming, so there's the need to time the two together, as the UI change will ultimately change how we teach new players the game and also what we teach them.

 

I am sorry, I normally don't do this, but I have to chip in here.

 

I have been playing for about 3 months now, and I vividly remember my run through the tutorial. Wurm's tutorial was so horrendous that it made me quit less than an hour into the game. Period. Full stop. One of the reasons you are not getting many new members is because of your tutorial. Allow me to explain.

 

Nearly 10 years ago I started my first day in another MMO. This mmo had no tutorial. It told you to shoot an enemy and thats it. So you were forced to turn to the playerbase and ask for questions. They had a nifty rookie channel, not unlike our CA Help channel. That's a no brainer. Ask your fellow players. Unlike WO, however, it had NO tutorial. So from the get go, you had to ask people questions. 

 

However, if you are a new player, and a tutorial is provided to you, you will wander over and do the tutorial if you are one of those shy people that like to keep to their own and not bug anyone. Wurm has a tutorial? Well lets try that. Sign tells me to take the sword from the chest... however its a steal action. Cant do it. Confusion strikes. Move on to the combat portion where there is a mannequin. Sign tells me to pick up the weapon and hit the mannequin with it. Can't steal, cant attack. See where I am going with this?

 

By the time the player exits the tutorial, selects a server, and ends up in the main world... they are absolutely clueless, frustrated, and nearly given up on the game. So they walk up to the next person they see... the dude with the refreshments... and find out its an NPC. They wander off their starter village and find a wolf, who eats them because no one told them they had armor on them and weapons. Remember the sword they tried to pick up and couldn't? Well, it would had been handy now with the wolf! If only the game had more clearly explained to them their gear was in their inventory....

 

So an hour into the game, the player is clueless, confused, frustrated, tired and now dead. I had already given up by this point. If not for my friend's insistence, I would not be here today. You cannot expect new players to whoely depend on CA's which they have no idea they even exist. Your Help channel is not exactly clearly labeled... I mean, what the heck is a CA? Do you think a new player will know that? I was asking for help when I came out of the tutorial. But guess where? Local. Yeah that wouldn't help me much now, would it?

 

I know its Wurm, a cold, desolate place, and its meant to be hard, but if we don't take care of our new people, we will have no game in the future. Take it from a new player who went through hell and back to be here today. Not only is the tutorial useless, but its actually confusing people even more than they would be if there was no tutorial at all. I think this is an important task that the Dev team should tackle. Don't wait until its too late.

 

And @Retrograde, that bit about "those things don't add anything"? You are flat out mistaken. Zoning into a flat brick house is not nearly as impressive as zoning into a palace. Seeing a couple fences and a dirt wall, is not as attractive to someone new as walking through a harbor with caravels, water, beautiful trees and slate roads. If you think looks don't sell, then I wager you need to get out more, because commerce and sales are all about how good things look.

Edited by Angelklaine
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40 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

 

I am sorry, I normally don't do this, but I have to chip in here.

 

I have been playing for about 3 months now, and I vividly remember my run through the tutorial. Wurm's tutorial was so horrendous that it made me quit less than an hour into the game. Period. Full stop. One of the reasons you are not getting many new members is because of your tutorial. Allow me to explain.

 

Nearly 10 years ago I started my first day in another MMO. This mmo had no tutorial. It told you to shoot an enemy and thats it. So you were forced to turn to the playerbase and ask for questions. They had a nifty rookie channel, not unlike our CA Help channel. That's a no brainer. Ask your fellow players. Unlike WO, however, it had NO tutorial. So from the get go, you had to ask people questions. 

 

However, if you are a new player, and a tutorial is provided to you, you will wander over and do the tutorial if you are one of those shy people that like to keep to their own and not bug anyone. Wurm has a tutorial? Well lets try that. Sign tells me to take the sword from the chest... however its a steal action. Cant do it. Confusion strikes. Move on to the combat portion where there is a mannequin. Sign tells me to pick up the weapon and hit the mannequin with it. Can't steal, cant attack. See where I am going with this?

 

By the time the player exits the tutorial, selects a server, and ends up in the main world... they are absolutely clueless, frustrated, and nearly given up on the game. So they walk up to the next person they see... the dude with the refreshments... and find out its an NPC. They wander off their starter village and find a wolf, who eats them because no one told them they had armor on them and weapons. Remember the sword they tried to pick up and couldn't? Well, it would had been handy now with the wolf! If only the game had more clearly explained to them their gear was in their inventory....

 

So an hour into the game, the player is clueless, confused, frustrated, tired and now dead. I had already given up by this point. If not for my friend's insistence, I would not be here today. You cannot expect new players to whoely depend on CA's which they have no idea they even exist. Your Help channel is not exactly clearly labeled... I mean, what the heck is a CA? Do you think a new player will know that? I was asking for help when I came out of the tutorial. But guess where? Local. Yeah that wouldn't help me much now, would it?

 

I know its Wurm, a cold, desolate place, and its meant to be hard, but if we don't take care of our new people, we will have no game in the future. Take it from a new player who went through hell and back to be here today. Not only is the tutorial useless, but its actually confusing people even more than they would be if there was no tutorial at all. I think this is an important task that the Dev team should tackle. Don't wait until its too late.

 

And @Retrograde, that bit about "those things don't add anything"? You are flat out mistaken. Zoning into a flat brick house is not nearly as impressive as zoning into a palace. Seeing a couple fences and a dirt wall, is not as attractive to someone new as walking through a harbor with caravels, water, beautiful trees and slate roads. If you think looks don't sell, then I wager you need to get out more, because commerce and sales are all about how good things look.

I couldn't agree more, when I started wurm, there was no tutorial and although it was hard and unforgiving in terms of learning curve, the thing was, what kept me going was seeing all those creations from other players and finding out that EVERYTHING is made from players, which means I could too! 
That! right there, motivated me to come back and try again :)

Which is why I think a possible tutorial should be more about exploring the actual world and experience it for yourself and having the tutorial aspects more "by the side" of it, like little windows of information popping up the moment you try to do something.

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3 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

By the time the player exits the tutorial, selects a server, and ends up in the main world... they are absolutely clueless, frustrated, and nearly given up on the game. So they walk up to the next person they see... the dude with the refreshments... and find out its an NPC. They wander off their starter village and find a wolf, who eats them because no one told them they had armor on them and weapons. Remember the sword they tried to pick up and couldn't? Well, it would had been handy now with the wolf! If only the game had more clearly explained to them their gear was in their inventory....

Had somebody earlier today commenting that they have been trying to fight with a weapon activated, after all that is how you use everything else. Not realising that it needed to be equipped.

 

I wonder how many start the tutorial and give up in frustration.

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these are all points we will be addressing when designing the new tutorial.

 

Not enough is set in stone to go into detail, but the new tutorial will be using all of golden valley for a reason.

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Hmm, an interesting point - could we perhaps rename the CA channel on GV to just 'Help' or 'Assistance' or something more obvious? 

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CA help is enough, it's pretty clear what it's for

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Where is the roadmap available to review? I seem to have misplaced the link and would love to get a far looking view of what is planned for Wurm.

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Ok so yes maybe Ca Help tab is enough  and it says help so I can understand that.

 

Yes we understand that its in process and these questions will be dealt with 2.0

 

Yes we understand that Dev teams don't give time frame for changes ( so many beta games its done when its done) because if they do and miss it the rancor and outrage is real.

 

You are saying you can't say much but here is what your not saying.

 

(1) Can we do anything to assist the current tutorial at least visually to give it some appeal?

 

(2) If no then is the time frame close for the new UI and Version 2 to come out?

 

(3) If yes Id like to make some suggestions to add some seriously really quick fixes that would give it at least some visual substance.

 

(4) If we have to wait do you guys have a video or YouTube series you would recommend for new people to watch.

One that has the Code club stamp of approval on. 

Its the day of media folks lets use it?

 

Im pretty zealous for wurm if you have not noticed. 

 

I am not willing to accept answers that don't provide me the ability to build the community of a game I love.

 

I have spent far to much time and way to much money on this game to just let things be.  I have hope for the future.

 

And yes ill say it #Make Wurm Great Again.!!!

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5 hours ago, Wulfmaer said:

Sounds as if you're thinking of the previous tutorial, that had you chopping a tree and making a few things - to teach the very basics of how to interact.

The old tutorial seems like it was eons ago!

 

I really liked the interaction.  However, was in a clan back then and when I asked if anyone else had tried Wurm, couple people said they had but never got past the tutorial because they were "tired of failing so much."  (paraphrasing, they probably included many four letter words)

 

In one sense, that's realistic to how Wurm is for new players.  Might be better to weed out those who want an easier experience in gaming... on the other hand, it pushed some people away very quickly.

 

Only relaying that bit of feedback as it might relate going forward.  Not sure what to do with it though.  It's probably as @Miretta is pointing out, when people see the wonderful player creations possible, they might be more willing to suffer the fails.  I don't think the old tutorial included that part.

 

Look forward to seeing what the new one has in store.  Judging by the cooking update, I'm excited to see what this team comes up with.

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11 minutes ago, puncher said:

And yes ill say it #Make Wurm Great Again.!!!

You know, Wurm has the largest population of any game in gaming history.  Everybody loves it.  They love it.  It's a huge population.  Yuge!  They just happen to be mysteriously absent fraudulent gamers nobody actually believes exists, but it's going to be a beautiful wall.  I mean game.

That's it, gag orders all around!  People love me, I mean the game, there's a lot of love.  Beautiful love.  Very very successful.

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2 hours ago, Retrograde said:

these are all points we will be addressing when designing the new tutorial.

 

Not enough is set in stone to go into detail, but the new tutorial will be using all of golden valley for a reason.

 

So I started on GV in '09 and have tested each iteration of the tutorial as it came out except the current one so I decided to give it a whirl.

1) The server is suffering the same Hetzner traffic problem I posted about here:

If I were a new player I'd probably quit after a minute or so.  The pop up for how to move occurred after I'd been in game for well over a minute. But I'll stick it out.

 

2) Aesthetically the new tutorial is better than previous incarnations.  There's more bits and more attractively laid out so points there.

 

3) Practically speaking it's a glorified graphical wiki.  There's no walkthrough, there's no direction it's just a collection of intersting POIs with pop ups.  The first post-GV closure tutorial failed on the aesthetic side but the walk through bit wasn't too bad in terms of showing folks how to actually interact with the interface.  It's one thing to show a picture of the interface and say 'this is what it will look like', it's another to actually walk them through the process so they can develop experience and expectations.

 

I had expected to give more feedback but after seeing it there's not much to say, it's not good.  I think Wurm would have been better off with the first post GV tutorial from 5 or 6 years ago.

 

2 hours ago, Retrograde said:

these are all points we will be addressing when designing the new tutorial.

 

Not enough is set in stone to go into detail, but the new tutorial will be using all of golden valley for a reason.

 

That's promising at least.  I've always thought that closing GV was a mistake, it should have been changed not abandoned.  Sure people simply camping on it permanently for free was an issue but my time on GV before I decided to prem up brings back fond memories, including Hodern giving me some seeds for making a bunch of ribbons, my little place near catfish lake and being trapped in a 2x3 pen by a wolf for 2 days. 

 

If you can find someway to keep the aesthetic of the current tutorial, the walk through nature of the original one and the broader feel of the original GV I think you'll be on the right track.

Edited by belthize

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I did enjoy my time on GV.  Back then I probly had a min size enclosure for my house and farm.  We learned how to play the game both from an old JKH player that didn't leave and from a few GM's that answered questions.  We learned how to make things and how to do most things in the game.  There was a small tutorial if it could have been called that.  We got popups saying go cut a tree etc.  Each step gave us a small bit of coin.  I think around 20c if I remember right.  But when we went back to GV right before the closing......well that wasn't pretty and couldn't have taught people much.  All I found was fences and more fences.  I am not sure there was a wild creature left that wasn't behind a fence.

 

I am not sure what plans would encompass the entire island of GV but it would be nice if you allowed people to learn on that server but limited their time there.  That way they could learn how to do things and move on for the next person.  The decay I'm sure would need to be very high or perhaps the items would disappear when the person's time was up and he moved to another server or left.  I don't have all the answers or even what if anything could be done.  Just know that I hated spending 30 minutes making a mallet and I wasn't too fond of the last tutorial except that I could run in and run out of it.  There needs to be some teaching involved along with showing what can be made.

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I am an 8 year veteran of Wurm and have been playing computer games for 27 years when games were Donkey Kong and Pac man.  Trust me when I tell you these things I have so far by my calculations invested over 75,000 hours in gaming

 

This doesn't mean anything. If at all, you are not the average gamer. Doing math problems for years on a calculator does not qualify you to be a mathematician. Your points are extremely emotional and really no purpose as such. Try using logic and professionalism to ask questions and 'why's. You'll know you're on the right path when no one is able to answer them. Hell, I even agree with you on your main point.

 

If you're expecting Wurm to change from 'basement productions' to a professional business model able to innovate some sort of rebirth, you're sorely mistaken. It's not a knock, but the cold hard reality of how things work around here. There's no ownership or drive, and we all have to deal with it. For example, I've tried to get and keep about a dozen people playing this game over the last few years. Imagine what their #1 reason for quitting is? Hint: It's not the UI.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Shazaam said:

 

This doesn't mean anything. If at all, you are not the average gamer. Doing math problems for years on a calculator does not qualify you to be a mathematician. Your points are extremely emotional and really no purpose as such. Try using logic and professionalism to ask questions and 'why's. You'll know you're on the right path when no one is able to answer them. Hell, I even agree with you on your main point.

 

If you're expecting Wurm to change from 'basement productions' to a professional business model able to innovate some sort of rebirth, you're sorely mistaken. It's not a knock, but the cold hard reality of how things work around here. There's no ownership or drive, and we all have to deal with it. For example, I've tried to get and keep about a dozen people playing this game over the last few years. Imagine what their #1 reason for quitting is? Hint: It's not the UI.

 

 

Yeah if you read the FIRST part of my post I said it was based on being miffed.

  Logic and professionalism are the questions I asked. How I said it is how I feel. 

Both are legitimate and in my case I don't think to overboard in any direction.

Yes I agree I have never had anybody quit due to the UI.

But trying to help new people understand a messed up tutorial area and having to re explain everything is maddening and demands a response.

And trust me this is not me extremely emotional.  This is me after I calmed down for a couple hours AFTER the fact. :)

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i didn't read half of this, but when i started in 2013 it was quite clear you needed a high IQ to understand the game. I'm assuming if you miss the tutorial (even though in my opinion it's worse than the last one) that now its even harder to determine how to play this rather complex game. Yes it needs simplifying in areas if you ever hope to achieve a higher player count.

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It's no secret that the existing tutorial is lacking, it does not achieve what it set out to do, which was to provide an initial guide, but for players to use the book of wisdom to orient themselves while playing.

 

The new system will aim to be much more interactive, explorative, and also showcase just what is possible in wurm.

 

also, the UI is a MAJOR reason in feedback, not understanding how keybinds work, wiki formatting being horrible, it's very dated and it shows, how new players interact with the game is a huge part of what makes getting into wurm difficult, while many won't directly say "the UI is bad" they do talk about now understanding how to do things, and honestly, poor formatting when it comes to using the ingame wiki and lack of knowledge regarding how to use the book of wisdom.

 

 

Like I said before though, plans are in the works, needs to come in with other things, and will address key issues.

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