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zigozag

Uniques (no drama)

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Exploring is a big part of wurm, and finding uniques is, I guess, a big achievement for any explorer.. it would be a shame for the thrill of the search to be removed by a big bright light in the sky..

Rifts filled a little the gap between mindlessly smashing normal creatures (once you have high enough skills) and getting smashed by a unique if you go at it alone, so there is a challenge now for decent fighters, that are not necessarily part of a group.

Regarding unique loot, i can't really say anything because i've been to a couple dragon hunts and unique slayings and if i would only try and get the resources from the public events it would probably take me around 10-15 years to get the drake/scale needed to make an armour.. but i understand and actually appreciate the rarity of it, and this makes me try harder to find a group of people that i could help with finding uniques and participate in killing them so that i can get the resources faster.. 

 

Edited by faty
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18 hours ago, TradingAlt said:

go pen them yourself, then you can dictate what happens with them.

 

Ooh, this means I get to be a voice of authority on a subject!

I've been slowly building up my drake collection, using/selling imbue potions, what have you, ever since the first wave of respawns.

Ah, that first wave. Good times. We on Release were disorganized, failed our first charge at the white hatchling, I think failed our first charge at the red dragon. Worry was beginning to mount that Pristine, our sister server, were going to kill all of their uniques and see our juicy spoils across the sea. Then, in a crazy spree, we got our kyklops, troll king and forest giant in the same evening!

 

Even then, the logic was obvious.

You're part of Release?

You joined in the fight? (planned ahead of time, so to give everyone the potential to join in)

Then the unique spawned for you, and yours are the spoils. Well, the loot roll, at least. (though some people disagreed with the second part of that list).

Why this system? Well, short answer is co-operating in the prisoner's dilemma.

 

Since then, we've merged our hunts with Pristine's and I've been leading the way in searching each Release spawn (typically unsuccessfully, no matter how many hours I search) and even hosting some fights for the Pristine and Release group. So I do pen them myself. And I do dictate what happens with them.

 

And you know what? OP's right.

I often joke about how my biggest fear when searching for a unique is actually finding the thing.

The sealing isn't bad. It's my favourite multiple-minute cast. Tense every time.

The hosting isn't bad. I've got fast hands and good organizational skill, so I think I actually hold the record in P&R for fastest hunt from start time to loot distributed.

Nah, what makes me dread it is that each time, I've got to pick a time that it happens. In doing so, I decide who isn't able to go. If I standardize the time, I'm simply treading on the same people every time.

 

Now, obviously there's no way to include everyone in every hunt. I could name two people who have literally incompatible times they're able to hunt a unique.

And as attractive as a beam is for taking the need to set a time away from me, well, people've well gone over the issues with public hunts; and that's what a beam would cause.

 

In conclusion, I think that reforming the unique system may just be a land of no good solutions.

And as much as TradingAlt's post makes me hear the sound of a flushing toilet as I read it, and as much as having a unique taken from under us hits the community spirit (and, admittedly, my pocket), he's right.

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Well, the thread went interesting direction, just like many don't read (or understand) the topic. Probably, my fault.

 

19 hours ago, TradingAlt said:

go pen them yourself, then you can dictate what happens with them.

This is completely irrelevant. Completely. Irrelevant. As is half of the posts in this thread.

 

I am not complaining or demanding to stop private hunts. I simply stated the fact that private hunts are the optimal way to handle uniques. In my opinion, this is a spoiled system. But statements and questions in OP have no complaints, (almost) no bias and no bashing or blaming. Apparently, to clarify whether it corresponds to the purpose respawning uniques were supposed to serve or not is something only Rolf can do.

 

Quote

[11:44:10] <Budda> im not posting there because you have no proper question there for me to answer
[11:44:19] <Budda> "there are private slayings, what say you?!"
[11:44:22] <Budda> "uhh ok?"

 

 

Edited by zigozag

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16 hours ago, Joelle said:

 

There really is no "elite" group in Wurm lol. When I first joined less than a year ago, I heard about a unique hunting group on Deli, asked if I could join, and was involved in my first private slaying three weeks later. I've been a part of private kills ever since. You just have to ask and get involved in order to be included. There are really few people in this game who I have come across who aren't friendly or are too selfish to disclude others who want to play with them. 

 

Things work a little differently on Deli than they do on the other servers (and better at that for how far I'm concerned), so the situatiuon there isn't really comparable. There are in fact certain groups of people who wouldnt invite just anyone (like they do on Deli IF you help with looking for the unique mob), so you could probably call those elitists.

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15 hours ago, puncher said:

 

 

I told my friends that I've known and can trust and killed it accordingly.  Same thing would of happened with a dragon, I would rather the drake/scale go towards people that will consolidate it and actually use it on a PvP server.   

 

And thus the elitest attitude we were talking about. All about me and my bros rest of wurm be damned.  This is what were trying to get away from and move into a full Wurm mentality instead of just for PVP.

 

I think it should be as suggested that items in pve cant be brought to pvp and vice versa as far as unique items.  Right now its the best of both worlds for PVP im not sure where unlimited access to PVP servers is doing much for PVE folks.  I do see where PVP folks can utilize the PVE servers as a safe hunting zone to get armor to go make them better at PVP.  I would call this a broken mechanic that needs looked at seriously.

 

As far as the MR dig  I was told via text in Freedom chat it was MR.  So i had no idea until it was shared.  Also by the post id say its MR group think still going on despite the title not being there.

 

 

Is it elitist to only trust people you've played with for years? It's a game, I really don't care about you, your bros or the rest of Wurm when it comes to unique slayings.  Wurm is all about effort, you put in effort and you are rewarded.  Why would I play this game if everyone got the same opportunities as me? I rolled the dice placed the deed where I did, I got lucky and got a kyklops out of it.  Someone could of easily gotten that spot and I wouldn't have gotten anything.  I play on a PvP server so naturally I want the items that I get from a unique to benefit me and my team - so we have a smidgen of an advantage compared to my enemies.  I'm not against Freedom players, I just think its better off on a different server.  Again, I got the kyklops so its my decision, not you or anyone else that's jealous of my luck.

 

PvE is benefiting from PvP servers... It depends on how you look at things... for example with;  glimmer and adamantium, hota statues, PMK related gear.  Why penalize PvP server people?  We are a FRACTION of the majority of players overall in the game and somehow make a concerted (successful) effort to get uniques for ourselves.  Instead of complaining about us, put in some effort and go out and find them.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Mojo said:

PvE is benefiting from PvP servers... It depends on how you look at things... for example with;  glimmer and adamantium, hota statues, PMK related gear.  Why penalize PvP server people?  We are a FRACTION of the majority of players overall in the game and somehow make a concerted (successful) effort to get uniques for ourselves.  Instead of complaining about us, put in some effort and go out and find them.

 

 

I'd believe that if the $$$ didn't flow in 1 direction ^_^

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13 hours ago, Jaz said:

Don't see why should we restrict shipping items to/from pvp.

 

6 minutes ago, Mojo said:

Why penalize PvP server people? 

 

I wasn't attempting to penalize PvP players by suggesting an embargo on imports to your island.  I was suggesting we shield you from any changes made on peaceful islands in accordance with what JakeRivers noted as important to him. 

I chose to extrapolate those priorities as a generalization of what may be of value to a PvP player.  Far as I can tell, he sounds fairly representative.

 

Not like I'm suggesting we build a wall along the border and make PvP players pay for it.  On the contrary, it's a suggestion made in good faith that, while not maintaining the status quo, would maintain and in some cases accentuate what I understood as important to JakeRivers, and thus other players of like mind.

 

This is why step number 1 was to take a deep breath.  Nobody's trying to penalize anybody.;)

6 minutes ago, Mojo said:

Why would I play this game if everyone got the same opportunities as me?

Because it's fun!  Woohoo! :D  (I was gonna go with weeeee!... still on the fence about it)

 

No one's ever gotten injured during a brainstorm, unless you run out of coffee.

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Yay/nay .. I hear you people say that'  there is no one manipulating the hide/scale market but ultimately if any blame can fall it would be on the devs side as they are the ones tat created these glorious items that can be sold for high RL amounts, this caters to the same peope in RL that will betray their friends/neighbors for a buck.. you can't tell me that joeblow has breen at 145 slaying since whenever and most of those are private and that he or his friemds found said unique.. ..I highly frggin doubt it Xanadu is a big place for 18 people to scour and find a unique there is more ta play here..  I use a hypothetical number as that are what most private slaying are about 20 people..so you can say what you want but me and my network of friends my community of Wurm doesn't chase the almighty dollar and scam and ffight for a buck we like to create and b*llshit and stuff like that.. but we are a very large percentage of Wurm we just don't all join together with a rallying cry everytime a quarter falls out of the devs pockets.. some of us just don't..so all the power to my leather made by my friend that I bought and paid for with my money is great for what I need..and I am proud to wear it..

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Ultimately uniques areend game hunting and fighting, throwing numbers at them is an easy way to remove the difficulty in that fight, and perhaps combat with then could be improved to be more deadly down the line.

 

While rifts were designed to overcome a few pitfalls of uniques (easy to locate, inability to restrict who attends, loot based off participation) it does not mean that the uniques are not functioning as intended. 

 

The ultimate factor here is the human element, which should always be the deciding factor in how something plays out in a sandbox game, those who locate the unique get to decide what's done with it, whether it's a public or private slaying, and how the loot is distributed. Choosing a private over a public fight is not a failure of them, nor a failure of the intention of them

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@PsalamonHave you ever looked for a unique? Ever get lucky and find one? I did, it spawned outside my deed.

 

Looked for a ton too, can look at WU code to see where they spawn. have people spread out and actually look hard for it.... A lot of effort goes into it.  

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Just fix the system? Hello? I see a lot of people discussing this, but no solutions. What is this thread's primary objective if not that? Sorry but it's literally rambling right now to me, and people saying go trap some dargons! Add in some Blah blah angry comments of course. I guess, I missed the point and rambling is the intention here?

 

If you want to fix the unique system and not have a philosophical debate on the morals and consequences of it, then I have a dozen possible fixes that I've personally brainstormed over the years and I'm sure others can pitch in, because the system is flawed, I love how some of the private groups have commented saying it's fine and perfectly reasonable! Who are you kidding? Trapping a dragon in a mine and finding them is how the system works right now. I understand takes a lot of work but hardly anyone else gets to enjoy them because they are herded and killed by select private groups. MMO's are about playing together with a group then killing monsters together (Most good games support towards this). I do fully understand Wurm is a Indie Sandbox game, it could do with some better systems before this get's addressed like a proper tutorial for starters, but when you add endgame systems they need to be accessible for the masses, so I do think the DEVs need to readdress it. 

Edited by Niki
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"End game content"?  This isn't the Ender Dragon from Minecraft, where you kill it and the game is over.  People kill uniques for loot, and the same people will continue killing uniques for loot.  If you want to dictate how loot is distributed, leave your deed and find/pen one yourself and organize a slaying.

 

I'm sorry, but the devs don't need to look at anything, because nothing is broken.  They spawn, they die, they're working fine.  If you want welfare loot, go visit rifts.

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5 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

 If you want welfare loot, go visit rifts.

Well now that's not elitist at all... :P

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No it's called being a realist.  I don't have to check the forums to know when it's Rift Day, because I see all the shoulderpads and .10 kg glimmer lumps spamming trade chat for sale. 

 

Half the people that go to rifts sell whatever they walk away with.  Same goes for people that go to unique fights.  It's a mentality that's had me baffled for the last year.  Why go to the trouble of sailing, lagging and selling scale/drakehide when it's much more profitable to make and sell bulk right from the comfort of your deed?

 

I'm perfectly content going to a goblin leader fight, making a few mining potions for my pickaxe and calling it a day... but an "end game" player doesn't feel the need to collect 25c worth of drake hide to sell for premium.

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In my opinion, a way to "fix the system" could be to remove the tome drops altogether. I was both blessed and cursed by a Red Dragon Hatchling spawning near my deed and catching myself by surprise while looking for Marble.

 

I was told the tomes were one reason people hunt down uniques, so they can sell these tomes for RL cash; that people do this because they're greedy. That is disturbing, but it's also not my decision if they should or shouldn't do this.

In the principle of public VS private slaying, it was also because of the tome. If it wasn't a thing, I would had allowed anyone who has the skill to do it.

Thankfully she never dropped any when she died, as I was also told it was a small chance. But that chance alone..I just feel it needs to be removed.

 

Again, just my opinion. I don't speak for anyone but myself.

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4 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Ultimately uniques areend game hunting and fighting, throwing numbers at them is an easy way to remove the difficulty in that fight, and perhaps combat with then could be improved to be more deadly down the line.

 

Is there another example of end-game with limited accessibility in Wurm?

 

I'd consider very high skills, and things requiring very high skills as end-game.  Every single person on the PvE side has access and the ability to attain those high skills with enough effort... regardless of anyone else. 

 

Perhaps on PvP, a player could be stopped from reaching very high levels through repeated player-killing.  That totally fits the PvP style.  It really would not fit the PvE style for players to limit other players' skills though.  It's part of the reason PvE avoids PvP.  "No dominion needed here, tyvm" type of thing.

 

Therein lies the rub, I believe.

PvE is accustomed to saying, "if I put in the work, I achieve my goal."  End of story.

There is none of this "be better than the other guy and you'll achieve your goal."  Better than the other guy is irrelevant in PvE.  That's more of a PvP interest.  Nothing wrong with it, just different.

Of course there are better breeders than I am, better farmers, carpenters, etc.  That has absolutely no bearing on my ability to breed animals, farm, or whittle wood.

 

Uniques seem to fit PvP style of play better than PvE.  Yes, the fight itself may be PvE, but as everyone here has pointed out, the search is very much against other players... as in Player vs Player.  He/She who finds it first.  PvP.

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3 hours ago, Wargasm said:

"End game content"?  This isn't the Ender Dragon from Minecraft, where you kill it and the game is over.  People kill uniques for loot, and the same people will continue killing uniques for loot.  If you want to dictate how loot is distributed, leave your deed and find/pen one yourself and organize a slaying.

 

I'm sorry, but the devs don't need to look at anything, because nothing is broken.  They spawn, they die, they're working fine.  If you want welfare loot, go visit rifts.

It's endgame, not sure you even know what that means and it was even said by Retrograde so I don't understand? I know you like to take something I say and twist it make you happy but let's keep personal opinions out of this thread for the sake of the OP's request of no drama.

 

Let's take a game like World of Warcraft, endgame literally means to do content for the highest level currently it's 110. You partake in raids and do PvP. You can't do that at 109. You can play the game casually and still you're able to partake in raids and PvP. You continue to do Raids and PvP till you have the best gear for your level of play, casual, Intermediate, and the hardcore players. Thing is that never truly ends, most decent MMO's offer a similar system. 

 

Wurm has taken a game mechanic that is used in other games for there Rift system, games such as Rift, FFXIV and now even WoW use a similar system to engage players. While Rifts could improve with how loot is distributed for people with higher percentiles of participation it's still a good system, and hopefully it's expanded in future.

 

Right now Wurm suffers from a small minority getting gear, and drops over and over. Unless your wealthy and willing to put money into the game or simply good at the economy most of these items such as scale and tomes are impossible for you to have. By some miracle you're invited or one of them becomes a public hunt you are a lucky duck one because that is insanely rare. We need to create more participation for the average player to even do these events because frankly its off limits to them.

 

I don't understand you're logic saying that the DEVs don't need to "look at anything", creating a better system would help the game overall. So simply saying that, there is nothing wrong is a problem, games need to be reevaluated all the time for quality and the removal of dated mechanics. A good example here, is one would say uniques in Wurm are similar to those of the Ever Quest's public dungeon system . Does anyone even remember the drama? Doesn't look like it. I get that most of you are happy to kill dragons every week in your special cliques but there is no point to hoard unique's for the minority until the game dies. That my friend is just selfish.

 

I will personally keep slaying e-dragons and mana-crazed elves to get my fix in WoW, raiding at the highest level possible.


Thanks.

 

Edited by Niki

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5 hours ago, Retrograde said:

The ultimate factor here is the human element

No.

 

 

On 17.01.2017 at 3:05 PM, zigozag said:
Spoiler

I am not pointing fingers and don't want to blame anybody. Although I am salty about private kills of humanoid uniques...

 

Here's some simple food for thought about this, considering dragons:

  • All player-driven things exist to the extent of game mechanics. Current mechanics where more participants result in less loot encourage sharing them within tight groups, be it a travelling squad or server locals. They make them do it, If you care about loot, you don't have a choice.
Spoiler

 

  • Making more participants result in more loot would make bringing alts and inviting everybody and perhaps providing infrastructure for them mandatory. While drawbacks are obvious, it would be a win-win situation.
  • Last but not least, what if loot didn't depend directly on number of participants? Would probably be frustrating. Well, just as an example of preserving the fairness satisfaction of players and also avoiding communism, amount of loot could be tied to how quickly unique is being killed (the time of fight, not time from spawn to death).

Under the current circumstances, I wouldn't share a dragon too nor ask anybody to.

Is this what @Rolf planned, or is it not?

 

 

 

Edited by zigozag

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26 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

 

Is there another example of end-game with limited accessibility in Wurm?

 

I'd consider very high skills, and things requiring very high skills as end-game.  Every single person on the PvE side has access and the ability to attain those high skills with enough effort... regardless of anyone else. 

 

Perhaps on PvP, a player could be stopped from reaching very high levels through repeated player-killing.  That totally fits the PvP style.  It really would not fit the PvE style for players to limit other players' skills though.  It's part of the reason PvE avoids PvP.  "No dominion needed here, tyvm" type of thing.

 

Therein lies the rub, I believe.

PvE is accustomed to saying, "if I put in the work, I achieve my goal."  End of story.

There is none of this "be better than the other guy and you'll achieve your goal."  Better than the other guy is irrelevant in PvE.  That's more of a PvP interest.  Nothing wrong with it, just different.

Of course there are better breeders than I am, better farmers, carpenters, etc.  That has absolutely no bearing on my ability to breed animals, farm, or whittle wood.

 

Uniques seem to fit PvP style of play better than PvE.  Yes, the fight itself may be PvE, but as everyone here has pointed out, the search is very much against other players... as in Player vs Player.  He/She who finds it first.  PvP.

Yeah endgame not associated with unique's is having good body stats, shield and possibly even sotg to be actually competitive in pvp. It's not required but if you want to be serious about it and don't like getting piled every encounter, you'd be wasting time not getting it.

 

Plenty of endgame in Wurm.

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So.. tomes are the problem, huh?  You want a fix freedom? here you go.

 

Give Freedom their own Valrei gameboard fully associated with only freedom.  Remove tome drops from uniques.

Freedom kingdom template is based off of JK, so their default god of association is Fo.  This means no more Mag or Lib missions.

Player god missions remain, requiring favor as usual.

Missions now give scenario points, since this is now based off winning Valrei, just like Epic.

You have your own Valrei gameboard, with gods on it.  Mag and Lib become self-supportive gods for Freedom just like Wurm is on Epic.

You have to spend 5000 karma (or 2500 for failing) to guide Fo (or your favorite player god) per hex around to gather the required collectables to win and bring it to their home hex.

Spend potentially years figuring out buff/trap/slow/warp tiles to know how to win.

When Fo or your player god wins you get to look at your 25000 points and see that the guy that killed one bull gets a smoke from sol.

Bonus round: random craters, pillars, or god knows what in a randomly chosen location.

 

Grats welcome to Epic where it is fun and fair, have a nice day

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Niki, I played World of Warcraft.  I raided in Vanilla, BC, WotLK and briefly in whatever expansion came after that.  The difference between raiding there and "raiding" here is that dragonscale, drake hide, tomes, bones and whatever else you might go to a unique fight for isn't bound to your character.  In WoW, sure it was cool the first time I killed Onyxia, Nefarian or some other nasty boss that took a week to learn how to kill, but the achievement of killing said boss, which is the leg you're pretending to stand on in the name of "end game", was only about 10% of the reason we went.  We wanted LOOT, for OUR toons, not to sell in order to pay our sub.

 

Slaying a unique is very different than farming Molten Core for gear for 40 people, over and over, week in and week out.  Think of it more like a portal which allows entrance into Molten Core, spawning in some random hole in Azeroth, and the first alliance to find it is the only alliance allowed to enter, slay the dragon, save the princess and get phat loots.  To accomodate the fact that not every loser that plays WoW has a 40+ man raid at their disposal, they redesigned raids to accomodate 10 OR 25 players, and even came out with gear that you can buy with dungeon raiding points (those that play WoW refer to them as Welfare Epics).

 

In Wurm, the devs acknowledged that not everyone participates in PvP (specifically HoTA).  They further understand that not everyone has a strong alliance to help them kill uniques without the public's help.  To accomodate newer players, to allow people to have a little bit more of an adventure than riding in the olive forest and killing Trolls all day, they stole added Rifts.  Welfare glimmersteel, addy, seryl and random barbie shoulderpads for anyone willing to sail across the server, borrow a horse, climb a mountain and do whatever else people do at Rifts.

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2 hours ago, MrGARY said:

So.. tomes are the problem, huh?  You want a fix freedom? here you go.

 

Give Freedom their own Valrei gameboard fully associated with only freedom.  Remove tome drops from uniques.

Freedom kingdom template is based off of JK, so their default god of association is Fo.  This means no more Mag or Lib missions.

Player god missions remain, requiring favor as usual.

Missions now give scenario points, since this is now based off winning Valrei, just like Epic.

You have your own Valrei gameboard, with gods on it.  Mag and Lib become self-supportive gods for Freedom just like Wurm is on Epic.

You have to spend 5000 karma (or 2500 for failing) to guide Fo (or your favorite player god) per hex around to gather the required collectables to win and bring it to their home hex.

Spend potentially years figuring out buff/trap/slow/warp tiles to know how to win.

When Fo or your player god wins you get to look at your 25000 points and see that the guy that killed one bull gets a smoke from sol.

Bonus round: random craters, pillars, or god knows what in a randomly chosen location.

 

Grats welcome to Epic where it is fun and fair, have a nice day

 

Wait, does this mean we can buy a key of the heavens from other players to become a god too?

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How about everyone in this thread combines as a group and find me 1 of each tome to use so that i can retire my unique hunting spree?

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4 hours ago, MrGARY said:

So.. tomes are the problem, huh?  You want a fix freedom? here you go.

 

Give Freedom their own Valrei gameboard fully associated with only freedom.  Remove tome drops from uniques.

Freedom kingdom template is based off of JK, so their default god of association is Fo.  This means no more Mag or Lib missions.

Player god missions remain, requiring favor as usual.

Missions now give scenario points, since this is now based off winning Valrei, just like Epic.

You have your own Valrei gameboard, with gods on it.  Mag and Lib become self-supportive gods for Freedom just like Wurm is on Epic.

You have to spend 5000 karma (or 2500 for failing) to guide Fo (or your favorite player god) per hex around to gather the required collectables to win and bring it to their home hex.

Spend potentially years figuring out buff/trap/slow/warp tiles to know how to win.

When Fo or your player god wins you get to look at your 25000 points and see that the guy that killed one bull gets a smoke from sol.

Bonus round: random craters, pillars, or god knows what in a randomly chosen location.

 

Grats welcome to Epic where it is fun and fair, have a nice day

 

20$ says if this gets added to freedom, it will get reworked within 48 hours because they arent second class citizens.

 

lmao.

 

Brings back good memories of me and chev doing allnighters hitting every mission on elevation, MRH, and JKH, getting several thousand scenario points per scenario only to have a person with less than 15 get the reward every single time.

 

at least all three of my rewards were smoke from sols though, each of them with all three charges.

Edited by Propheteer

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