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Pashka

Skilling up Ropemaking as a Priest.

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I am a vyn priest that has skilled up ropemaking as a vyn priest.  This is nothing but creating rope after rope after rope after rope.  I had several rope tools that I used during this time.  I kept tools that were at around 50 skill for as much of the time as possible to increase my shot at gaining a small skill tick.  As many of you know, this is difficult when you have items that are very easy to create.

 

We have had an update which I will admit benefits those of us that have already skilled up ropemaking.  However, it seriously screws the ones that are still trying to.  This skill is insane to raise as a priest because we all know creation skill gains are the worst.  But I always believed that my priest should be able to stand on her own.  She could handle anything in a fight and she could do anything she wanted.  I think that is how to raise a good priest.  They need to be able to stand on their own as much as possible.

 

The new update for ropemaking has made making these ropes so much easier.  The ropes I made were alot better quality.  It was pretty amazing for me.  I should tell you that I have over 99 in ropemaking.  So my ropes will be that way.  Your skill is only 20 you say?  You are a priest you say?  I'm so very sorry for you.  You should have raised this skill as a non priest.  Why you say?  You didn't?  Well but when I did it, it was possible to raise it as a priest.  See we could get skill from making those ropes because they had a much higher difficulty.  But why can't you do that?  Because people were upset that the favor for ropes wasn't as good as it is for other things.  That was true.  But there was an even easier fix for that than making it so that you wouldn't be able to skill up ropemaking as a priest using only create.  It was to up the Get Price on the ropes.  This would have upped the favor on the ropes.  That was all they wanted wasn't it?  Guess not.  Not sure what they wanted really.  Oh well.

 

I did discuss this with Retrograde.  He has told me that I do not understand how to change my ropetools.  I only got 99 by well doing nothing I'm guessing.  I'm just super sorry for the priests out there that did it the way I did and did not raise ropemaking as a non priest.   Guess it is a good thing they have added in chopped veggies.  Cause ropemaking is now in the toilet as a skill to raise.

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We have discussed this at length, and I'm still not sure you fully understand the mechanics behind the change.

 

Previously, before 1.3, cordage was 60 difficulty, this is akin to farming onions in terms of skill (varies a little due to nature and such, but it's essentially tool ql + skill vs difficulty).

running through a simulation of 10,000 actions, with a 60 difficulty action (old cordage) and a 90ql tool, you would gain a tick 50% of the time at 50 skill and an average of 11ql cordage.

Now with 40 difficulty (the equivalent of mining gold or marble), you would gain a tick 47% of the time, but the average quality would be 33.

 

I know the argument is that with easier to produce cordage, your tick rate drops, but this can be countered like in all skills by lowering the ql of your tool, a new player with 20 skill would not be seeking to grind mining on gold, or farming on onions, but would work up to it (for comparison, a 90ql tool with 60 difficulty cordage and 20 skill would give a tick 15% of the time, now with 40 difficulty it would give a tick 37% of the time, not ideal, but much much more frequent).

I know there aren't as many options with ropemaking but the essential thing is, changing the ql of the tool will always be extremely important in gaining skill.

 

The fact you aren't gaining as many ticks with a 90ql rope tool and 99 ropemaking does not mean that someone cannot skill up to that level through creation alone. It means that they might have to balance the tool ql against their ropemaking skill a little differently to how you did.

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I do feel for you mate. But you are not going against Devs here. As you mentioned - we, wurmians, asked for difficulty to be lowered. And only we, wurmians, can be blamed for it. 

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It should be noted that there are 5 different ropes with a difficulty ranging from 1 to 70. While you make it sound like all ropes were made easier, the only difficulty that changed recently was the cordage rope, which it's difficulty was reduced from 60 to 40. The reduction in difficulty also means that a lower skill is needed to make those ropes at the same ql as previously. Skilling higher from a lower difficulty task is still possible, as is done in many other skills already, via using lower ql tools according to the level you are at. As a comparison to another skill, the difficulty of mining Gold veins is 40, and is generally the highest possible difficulty for a vein - as far as I know it is still quite possible to skill up mining.

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The cordage rope was the only rope to skill up on after a while.  The difficulty on the others were too low as to be viable.  There isn't a skiller rope tool that will be low enough to skill up ropemaking as a priest with no other option but to create.  At least not now.  As I have already said, this is something that I did.  I used to min max with different tools.  I used bow strings til my eyes were bleeding.  I had one rope tool for mooring ropes and one rope tool for cordage ropes.  I tried to keep both of them with a chance to make the item at 50% which is where I got the best chance of my skill gains.  I would imp or burn the tools as I could.  When a 1q rope tool was no longer good for mooring ropes I stopped and just keep tools for cordage.  One(or more) for favor (Thank you Thorgot!) and one for skill gain.  Again when a 1q skiller is no longer viable, it just sucks eggs.  Now that the difficulty for cordage has been lowered, the time frame for any chance at good skill gain is out the window.  Now I have my skill.  It is those that are coming up the same path that I took that are going to be in that never land.  So to them I say.......Sorry.

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1 minute ago, Pashka said:

The cordage rope was the only rope to skill up on after a while.  The difficulty on the others were too low as to be viable.  There isn't a skiller rope tool that will be low enough to skill up ropemaking as a priest with no other option but to create.  At least not now.  As I have already said, this is something that I did.  I used to min max with different tools.  I used bow strings til my eyes were bleeding.  I had one rope tool for mooring ropes and one rope tool for cordage ropes.  I tried to keep both of them with a chance to make the item at 50% which is where I got the best chance of my skill gains.  I would imp or burn the tools as I could.  When a 1q rope tool was no longer good for mooring ropes I stopped and just keep tools for cordage.  One(or more) for favor (Thank you Thorgot!) and one for skill gain.  Again when a 1q skiller is no longer viable, it just sucks eggs.  Now that the difficulty for cordage has been lowered, the time frame for any chance at good skill gain is out the window.  Now I have my skill.  It is those that are coming up the same path that I took that are going to be in that never land.  So to them I say.......Sorry.

They will hit the 50% for cordage sooner, and then will be able to balance rope tool ql down as they go up.

 

It will actually be easier for them.

 

as a side note, if you're looking to gain the best skillgain on making cordage, it seems a 20ishql tool is best at 99 ropemaking.

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As a side note, I told you to skill it some and test it and show.

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10 minutes ago, Pashka said:

As a side note, I told you to skill it some and test it and show.

 

Do you have some tests for comparison, or no? I suppose we could bother @Noizhead- that guy is inhuman with sorting out the numbers.

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I can only pull results from now.  I can run a test showing how bad it is with both a 1q and a 20q but I cannot show you what it was before.

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50 minutes ago, Pashka said:

I can only pull results from now.  I can run a test showing how bad it is with both a 1q and a 20q but I cannot show you what it was before.

 

Meaning it would be fairly hard to actually show evidence of the problem you're reporting because you lack the data to support it. I'm reminded of the inbreeding claims from our past debates.

 

I have no issues with facts being presented to us so that we can make tweaks, but all we have here right now is conjecture and speculation.

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If you want skill, and the difficulty is too low now, use a lower QL tool. Bam. "Problem" solved.

 

If difficulty drops, but the QL of your tool also drops accordingly, the results wind up being exactly the same in the end, with the exception that the actions take a bit longer (which can actually be a good thing).

 

In other words, it's just as easy to skill up as before; you'll just need to use a lower QL rope tool to do it sometimes. A total non-issue. The only way this would possibly be an issue is if the item is so low-difficulty that you have way too high a chance to create even with a 1QL tool, and in this case, I really don't think that's likely, since the ideal creation chance for skill gain is something around 70-75%, and cordage is still moderately high in difficulty.

 

 

I understand you have 99 ropemaking, but that doesn't mean you did it the most efficient way possible, or that you understand the mechanics behind it. I mean, if I bring my car to the mechanic and he yells at me for driving it to work with the overdrive turned off and a dead possum in the radiator, it wouldn't be very reasonable for me to say "well, I got there, didn't I?" and try to use it as proof that I know what I'm doing.

Edited by Ostentatio
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14 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

I understand you have 99 ropemaking, but that doesn't mean you did it the most efficient way possible, or that you understand the mechanics behind it. I mean, if I bring my car to the mechanic and he yells at me for driving it to work with the overdrive turned off and a dead possum in the radiator, it wouldn't be very reasonable for me to say "well, I got there, didn't I?" and try to use it as proof that I know what I'm doing.

 

I like this.

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I can show what it was from using my better tools from before.  I have not used a skiller in ages.  I do not have the logs from when I was skilling up the priest.  That has been ages ago.  I do not have that information.

 

Noone can say I didn't do it the exact perfect way.  Because I do not have logs.  I do not keep logs from years ago from computers that have been replaced.  I have no use for the information.  Not one person did any testing on this before doing it because it was a knee jerk reaction.

Edited by Pashka

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I'm honestly not sure what your point is.

 

If you're saying that skilling up ropemaking by creating cordage is harder, it's not. Like before, you need to adjust your rope tool QL to achieve optimal results. If anything, achieving optimal results is easier since the difficulty is lower, so those with less ropemaking skill no longer need very high quality rope tools to do it.

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Ropemaking is a gateway skill. It's great to have a high level, but ultimately you are going to grind it in order to make quality cordage more efficiently. And the cordage is for channel grind. This is the trade off. It may be a slower grind to get the ropemaking skill higher, but your threshold for creating decent cordage is way lower than it was before. You then get to start your channel grind sooner than you previously would.

 

I created bow strings all the way up to 70 before starting cordage. I would have gladly traded gains in ropemaking if I could get cordage around 45-50 using a good tool.

 

 

 

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Really can't see the issue here.

 

I did the grind to 90+ mostly while priested and as far as I can see the only two differences are you need a lower QL ropetool for skilling and when making sac material, you get better sac material for a given skill level.

 

Only issue with increasing rope get price is it would make it easier to loot the traders of any nice stuff.

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Just now, Gaeron said:

 

 

Only issue with increasing rope get price is it would make it easier to loot the traders of any nice stuff.

Same story with lower difficulty cordage. Lower difficulty means more higher quality ropes and thus more value to sell.

 

And when I saw "ropes", I'm referring to all rope-like things made with rope making.

 

The goal here was to increase potential favor that can be created with rope making. Difficulty is an indirect relationship to what actually causes increase favor, and that is item value. So if one wants to increase the value of something, imo anyway, one should just increase the value in the first place.

 

None of this matters anyway, Wurm devs were made aware of this and they still chose the wrong path (imo). Its unlikely they are going to flip.

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Doesn't matter anyway, ropemaking is now a waste of time to skill up I believe unless they either lower the difficultly even more or up the get price.  I get 6200 favor from 1000 92ql wemp at 96 ropemaking, using a 95ql supreme ropetool (was about 4200 before change).  This is not enough of a difference from chopping veggies to make the investment in time to skill up ropemaking attractive it seems to me.  Granted, I haven't actually chopped any veggies so feel free to educate me.

 

As to the OP point re skill ticks, seemed to me that I was still getting lots re the above 1000 wemp test.  But I don't track skills, was just watching the ticks come in, seemed acceptable to me.  Was disappointed actually as I was hoping for more favor.

 

As to the point re upping the "get price", very easy to do that since all items have a "c" constant.  Cordage is 1, just change it to 1.25 or something like that.

 

 

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I haven't tested the chopped veggies either.  It does appear from the information given that it would be a much faster and better favor run than ropes now.  Still have about 50k wemp sitting in the bsb's though.

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10 hours ago, Fescue said:

Ropemaking is a gateway skill. It's great to have a high level, but ultimately you are going to grind it in order to make quality cordage more efficiently. And the cordage is for channel grind. This is the trade off. It may be a slower grind to get the ropemaking skill higher, but your threshold for creating decent cordage is way lower than it was before. You then get to start your channel grind sooner than you previously would.

 

I created bow strings all the way up to 70 before starting cordage. I would have gladly traded gains in ropemaking if I could get cordage around 45-50 using a good tool.

 

 

 

When I think of how many hundreds of thousands of cordage ropes I used to make with 3 97 ql supreme rope tools that I would wear down to 85ql before switching them out again under the old system to enchant stuff and the output cordage ql was so darn low..... Sounds better now.

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22 hours ago, Budda said:

It should be noted that there are 5 different ropes with a difficulty ranging from 1 to 70.

 

Out of interest, what rope is 70 difficulty?  Halter?

 

If there's a 70 difficulty rope, then it seems to me that this entire argument is pointless; even if you don't accept the argument that skilling on cordage isn't really any different now than it was before, there's still a high difficulty option if you really want it.  Although, that said, if it is halter ropes, then there's no tool, so nothing to CoC, I guess.

 

Personally, the reasoning presented above (including from people who actually look at the code and thus know exactly how everything works) convinced me, and much of the counter argument seems to be people who just want to find ways that they got personally disadvantaged by those nasty devs, who clearly hate them and are just out to make their lives harder.  There are enough actual problems that need attention that it seems pointless to waste energy on arguments that just aren't true.

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Wait what cordage ropes are easier to make right now? Wonderful! Once I'm done playing with all the new cooking thingies, I deffo will go back to getting my shipbuilding back on track!

 

(please don't kill me wurmgrumps)

(I'm just easy to please)

(even with having 3 priests myself)

Edited by Dame

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If it is the halter rope that is 70 diff, a priest can't make it because it is something that has to be continued.  If that is the skill required for it, it should definately be lowered.  Alot would love for that one to be easier to make.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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