Limited reuse for wax sealing kits

[Ostentatio 1,970]

From what I'm hearing, wax sealing kits are totally consumed on use and kind of a pain to make. If that's the case, I suggest, if possible, making them reusable a variable number of times depending on QL.

 

Proposal:

• When unsealing a container, you get the wax seal back, but with less QL than it was originally (say, 10QL loss).
• If the seal you get back would be negative QL, it gets destroyed instead of returned.

 

So, if you had a 25QL wax sealing kit, and 10QL loss each time, you could use it three times, and a 52QL wax sealing kit could be used six times.

 

No idea how difficult this would be to implement, but some way to reuse the things in a limited fashion would be nice.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Ostentatio

[Kadore 926]

Alternatives to wax would be nice, don't care if its tar, peat, sand, or whatever, we now have the ability to store things decay free, but it is locked behind a skill wall, my understanding is you a ) need wax and b ) need a decent level of papyrus skill.

 

Some variation would be welcome as there is always more than one way to skin a cat. 

[Stanlee 3,434]

I can't even make these things but a +1 from me. (I'm so much better off just ordering in loads of wine barrels and pegging them up)

[Fooligun 591]

+1 for making it easier to do, not sure if it should be a reusable item, or the seal is "fixed" to the sealed container and has a limited number of uses on that specific container. 

[Niki 2,278]

+1 Yeah this needs to be looked into, you need at least 40-50 papyrusmaking to make these without a struggle, most people don't have this skill.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

I like very much the reusable wax but i also would like to see ALTERNATIVES TO WAX.  Like, mason  jars and tin cans .  I know I know, But Are they medieval enough??   Ok if you are gunna be picky about time eras:

 

You may be thinking: “What does meat filled jell-o have to do with food preservation!?” Well, you’d be surprised to find out that gelatin has been used in food preservation dating back to at least 1375 with its publication in Le Viandier, a Medieval cookbook. Well, how is gelatin used for preserving food?

The proteins in gelatin form a protective gel at low to room temperatures that guards food from oxygen that allows spoilage bacteria to grow and flourish. Foods placed inside liquid gelatin before it cools will benefit from the protective gel, effectively preserving it for months at a time. The medieval population would have been able to store meats like this during the colder months, when keeping live animals was economically unreasonable. Now you may be thinking, where did all that gelatin come from? By clarifying animal stock, naturally high in gelatin contained in animal bones, a base for these dishes was made. This, essentially cooled meat broth, was known as aspic. Aspic dishes have remained popular in many countries around the world, but why do they work?  The weak bonds between the collagen proteins in gelatin are broken when added to hot water. The swirling chains remain in the solution until it cools. The cooling gelatin solidifies when the polypeptide chains start returning to their original formation under the cooling conditions and form what are known as junction zones, or places where three polypeptide chains have reformed into helical structures. At this point, if there is enough gelatin in the solution, a three dimensional matrix will form from these junction zones to make the wiggling gelatin structure everyone knows and loves. A more detailed description of the process of the thermal dependent breakdown and reformation of gelatin can be found here at Scientific American and the detailed biochemistry of gelatin can be found here. As mentioned, the structural properties of gelatin are dependent on temperature. When energy is added to the jello, the weak bonds keeping it together, such as hydrogen-bonds, are broken with the extra energy and the structure falls apart. However, as the temperature cools, the polypeptide chains in gelatin attract one another and reform the three dimensional matrix.

 

In other words: Boiled Calves Hooves For Sealants Plez

 

 

And dinna forget .. PINE SAP, a nice sealant that has many other uses.  If we want to keep thing "realistic for oldie times:  That's because pine needles are rich in vitamin C. Hundreds of years ago many people died of lack of vitamin C, not directly, but indirectly, from opportune infections that thrived because their immune system lacked critical vitamins. Pine needles still provide vitamin C to help us stay healthy in the cold season. They can be chewed, brewed into a tea, or, my favorite, prepared as a vinegar.

Also some plants can be used to produce waxes and gums:  Plants secrete waxes into and on the surface of their cuticles as a way to control evaporation, wettability and hydration.  The epicuticular waxes of plants are mixtures of substituted long-chain aliphatic hydrocarbons, containing alkanes, alkyl esters, fatty acids, primary and secondary alcohols, diols, ketones, aldehydes. From the commercial perspective, the most important plant wax is carnauba wax, a hard wax obtained from the Brazilian palm Copernicia prunifera. Containing the ester myricyl cerotate, it has many applications, such as confectionery and other food coatings, car and furniture polish, floss coating, surfboard wax and other uses. Other more specialized vegetable waxes include candelilla wax and ouricury wax.

SEE ALSO:  RESIN

Some of these would be great for sealing Amphora containers

 

 

 

 

So You Say You Want More Idears for preserving...

 

Vinegar is naturally obtained by sequential fermentation of sugar to alcohol and then to acetic acid. Cider vinegar is derived from apple juice while white vinegar is made from pure grain alcohol. For home food preservation purposes, use vinegars that are labeled as 5 percent acidity (50 grain) since they produce consistent results. White vinegar is usually preferred when light color is desirable, as is the case with fruits and cauliflower. Do not use homemade vinegar or vinegar of unknown acidity in pickling. Do not dilute the vinegar unless the recipe specifies this since you will be diluting the preservative effect. If a less sour product is preferred, add sugar rather than decrease the vinegar.

 

Lemon juice is another natural acidulent commonly used in home food preservation. T o assure safe acidity in whole, crushed, or juiced tomatoes, add 2 tablespoons of bottled lemon juice per quart of tomatoes or 1 tablespoon per pint. An alternative to lemon juice for acidifying tomatoes is citric acid (see below)

 

 

 

 

Also some way to make ROOT CELLARS. It's truly lamentable in a major terraforming game  we cannot make simple ROOT CELLARS. Make a brick/wood box, cover it in dirt, slap on a door, and voila.

 

  

 

it can even be built as a unit similar to a charcoal pile, takes lots of whole trees and dirt and rockshards and reinforcement beams, a 1x1 tile "sunken building" that is actually just a giant container (cannot enter, only add remove from its inventory). Like a larder without snowballs and takes digging/masonry instead of Fine carp skill, cannot be picked up or loaded:

 

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Brash_Endeavors

[Ostentatio 1,970]

Alternatives to beeswax would be nice. My only concern about them is that they'd likely be a lot easier to get than beeswax, rendering beeswax pointless. As long as that's avoided, alternatives are nice.

[Kadore 926]

Why is easier to get such a bad thing, we're talking about sealing a container not walking on the moon.

[Ecrir 887]

Making the seals reusable with some ql loss sounds like a great idea, I'm not sure whether 10ql is too steep a loss or not as I don't know how fast beeswax can currently be produced (I do not yet have bees), so I can't comment on that.

Direct alternatives to beeswax sound less interesting unless they aren't as good as beeswax and/or much harder to aquire, otherwise bees would be pointless as even honey can also be replaced with sugarbeets.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Having alternatives does not mean one single path is useless, it means players can explore multiple solutions that works for them. in a sandbox game, it means not using one single path to success. 

 

It might make beeswax useless only if it were too simple, too common, too easy -- for instance, making simple container seals out of clay.  Which, now that you mention it (ok, maybe i mentioned it) is actually a pretty sensible solution, ya know? Some more history on how people preserve food (interesting note -- not all of which involve using the wax of bees!!  Those conniving humans were really into alternative solutions to problems, i guess.)  An example of a useful alternative to wax seals, might be to let players make cork out of oak bark as that is a somewhat complex process (more complex at least than clay or wood peg).

 

Some players still will always choose wax because they choose to keep bees and hives for multiple reasons: honey, mead, wax, and game aesthetics.  The wax is a byproduct of bees and not the sole purpose of bees. Players not into bee keeping do not need to be penalized by giving them no alternative sealant method, especially when alternative sealants are extremely common throughout human history,

 

The concept of preserving foods by cooking them and then sealing them in a container is ancient. Olive oil, lard, wax, pitch, clay, and skin have all been used to seal vessels containing food, but are not very reliable. In the late eighteenth century, France offered a monetary award for a method that could be used to preserve food for soldiers. After years of experimentation, Nicholas Appert successfully used sealed glass jars, whose contents had been thoroughly cooked in a water bath, to create portable and potable food. He was awarded the prize in 1809 for his work and went on to publish his findings in "L'art de conserver pendant plusieurs années toutes les substances animales et vegetales" (The art of preserving all kinds of animal and vegetable substances for several years). In 1810, Englishman Peter Durand received a patent for the same process but included tin containers as well as glass

 

Ok so we decided (maybe?) that glass mason jars were out, still the zeer pot of arabia is yet another potential path players can follow,  I actually still like the idea very much of making POTTERY a more mainstream skill right up there with Tailoring, Fine Carpentry, Leatherworking etc. I love the idea of underloved skills getting a boost and the cookingupdate seems to do just that with a number of skills. It sounds like bee hives are yet-more-Fine-carpentry love, which is nice as I love fine carpentry,  but there are other skills that now need love even more.

 

A pot-in-pot refrigerator, clay pot cooler[1] or zeer (Arabic: زير‎‎) is an evaporative cooling refrigeration device which does not use electricity. It uses a porous outer earthenware pot, lined with wet sand, contains an inner pot (which can be glazed to prevent penetration by the liquid) within which the food is placed - the evaporation of the outer liquid draws heat from the inner pot. The device can be used to cool any substance. This simple technology requires only a flow of relatively dry air and a source of water. There is some evidence that evaporative cooling was used as early as the Old Kingdom of Egypt, around 2500 B.C. Frescos show slaves fanning water jars, which would increase air flow around the porous jars and aid evaporation, cooling the contents.[2] These jars exist even today and are called "zeer", hence the name of the pot cooler.

 

 

 

 

I think we all agree, an alternative should not be SO easy it makes wax stupid to use. 

Although my gut reaction on reading how hard wax is to acquire, is that maybe wax is stupid to use. 

 

I also think every "challenge" should provide potential solutions for new players as well as veterans, and for casual players as well as hardcore alpha players. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Brash_Endeavors

[Kadore 926]

4 hours ago, Ecrir said:

Making the seals reusable with some ql loss sounds like a great idea, I'm not sure whether 10ql is too steep a loss or not as I don't know how fast beeswax can currently be produced (I do not yet have bees), so I can't comment on that.

Direct alternatives to beeswax sound less interesting unless they aren't as good as beeswax and/or much harder to aquire, otherwise bees would be pointless as even honey can also be replaced with sugarbeets.

So wax needs to be the only way to seal to keep bee hives relavent?

 

Since everything else you need from a hive can already be done differently another of the things talked about to deal with on deed decay require papyrus making and the need to be a beekeeper

 

Not every single task in game needs to be such a challenge cooking already provides what you seek.

 

[Ostentatio 1,970]

3 hours ago, Kadore said:

So wax needs to be the only way to seal to keep bee hives relavent?

 

Since everything else you need from a hive can already be done differently another of the things talked about to deal with on deed decay require papyrus making and the need to be a beekeeper

 

Not every single task in game needs to be such a challenge cooking already provides what you seek.

 

 

Challenge is fine. Making beekeeping pointless in gameplay terms (such as by making other means to achieve the same ends significantly easier) might not be.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Except i would say, " Making beekeeping pointless  REQUIRED  in gameplay terms (such as by making other means to achieve the same ends significantly easier  IMPOSSIBLE) might not be   IS NOT fine"

 

Almost everything in Wurm has alternative paths:  

• You can make STEEL for plate armor, but some people still prefer to grown cotton for cloth armor, or hunt for leather to make studded. Plate is preferable in some ways but a lesser choice for others (more difficult, more time consuming, slower movement, spell penalties). 
• You can build a huge Caravel for sailing, but for many players a simple rowboat still does just fine. In some circumstances the caravel is preferable, and in some circumstances (poor winds)  the rowboat is actually a better choice.

 

In both examples, the supposedly "superior" option is not across the board superior. Nobody complains that cotton has made steel worthless, or that rowboats make caravels pointless, because they are much superior in certain specific ways (but also less good in other ways). So make wax and papyrus a much superior method of food preservation in some ways, but also make "easier paths" for different situations and benefits. Just don't make them identical to wax seals, there should be pros and cons to different ways. 

 

Some players can't find bees. Some players don't have sufficient fine carpentry skill to engage in LEET BEEHIVE WARS to see who can build the superior lure. Some players simply don't want the hassle of taking care of  daily bee care. Some players want to log on for weekends only without spending the entire time collecting food making meals because their previous work has now all rotted away.  Designing the Perfect Apiary Garden should be an exciting new element for players but never a required time sink just to achieve a simple yet  unrelated end. In human history, bees wax was not the only way people had to stop up jars and containers, and it may not even have been the best solution ... except for people who were keeping bees for other reasons as well. . 

 

What would make a wax seal superior in some ways to other methods, but not across the board superior, and absolutely not a required solution, is perhaps a better discussion. 

 

(also i am on WU and thus have not upgraded to patch, i saw that seals can use papyrus reeds/paper -or- paper from pulp wood scraps, is there anything that makes papyrus superior or does pulp wood actually make papyrus pointless for seals?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Brash_Endeavors

[Ostentatio 1,970]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying beekeeping should be the only way to seal things. Alternatives are fine. I just wouldn't want the alternatives to make beekeeping irrelevant by way of being incredibly easier.

[Ratheden 56]

+1 to the idea. I am partial to brash's idea's and posts most of all, Sorry Osten.

 

[Ostentatio 1,970]

I just recently became aware that you can seal wine barrel with a regular old peg in order to prevent decay of any liquids. This is roughly as useful as a wax ceiling kit, but:

• Wax sealing kit: Get cotton, spin cotton into several strings, weave some of it into cloth, cut a label, have/get a beehive, harvest wax from bees, and slap all the sealing kit parts together. Significant skill needed in papyrusmaking, which doesn't need to be high for any other action, so you'd be raising it mostly for this.
• Peg: You can cut 10 per shaft and anybody who owns a carving knife can do it.

Given the above, wax sealing kits ought to be easier, or better, or something. Just have them drop 5QL each time they're detached, like bowstrings do.

[Niki 2,278]

35 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

I just recently became aware that you can seal wine barrel with a regular old peg in order to prevent decay of any liquids. This is roughly as useful as a wax ceiling kit, but:

• Wax sealing kit: Get cotton, spin cotton into several strings, weave some of it into cloth, cut a label, have/get a beehive, harvest wax from bees, and slap all the sealing kit parts together. Significant skill needed in papyrusmaking, which doesn't need to be high for any other action, so you'd be raising it mostly for this.
• Peg: You can cut 10 per shaft and anybody who owns a carving knife can do it.

Given the above, wax sealing kits ought to be easier, or better, or something. Just have them drop 5QL each time they're detached, like bowstrings do.

They don't need to be nerfed skill wise, I am so happy papyrusmaking has a use now! They should let you reuse them though, most people can't make them I am kind of controlling the market for them atm because I am silly and skill everything nearly. I think I would sell more if they were reusable however. Not sure you can store milk and things in wine barrels, because they act as a positive decay item - I might be wrong but that sounds like a bug, otherwise why would anyone make a wax sealing kit?

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

2 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

I just recently became aware that you can seal wine barrel with a regular old peg in order to prevent decay of any liquids. This is roughly as useful as a wax ceiling kit, but:

• Wax sealing kit: Get cotton, spin cotton into several strings, weave some of it into cloth, cut a label, have/get a beehive, harvest wax from bees, and slap all the sealing kit parts together. Significant skill needed in papyrusmaking, which doesn't need to be high for any other action, so you'd be raising it mostly for this.
• Peg: You can cut 10 per shaft and anybody who owns a carving knife can do it.

Given the above, wax sealing kits ought to be easier, or better, or something. Just have them drop 5QL each time they're detached, like bowstrings do.

 

 

You can seal various liquids into a wine barrel with a peg however you cannot unseal it until fermentation is complete.  I checked into that because I too was initially excited about this as an alternative. Then, I read the fine print.  This makes a pegged wine barrel  useless for any liquid that does not involve direct production of alcohol. There may be fermented milk recipes but all other uses for milk are out the window if you use a peg in a wine barrel.

 

__________

 

 

edit:  hmm I am looking again and now i am not sure, I might be wrong as there are references to sealing with a wood scrap and references to sealing with a wood peg, and I might have jumbled the two together.

 

If i can store milk in a wine barrel with a peg at any time and unseal it (maybe needing a new peg each time) then i am happy,

 

I guess that makes wax mostly useful to: 1) people who already keep bees, 2) want the option of using a larger selection of containers and not have to make a big wine barrel anytime they want to store 3kg of oil or 7 kg of lemon juice , 3) don;t want to use up all that iron on iron ribbons

 

in which case I would think wax should be reuseable based on quality level. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Brash_Endeavors

[Odynn 2,248]

14 minutes ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

Wine barrels can be sealed to prevent decay of liquids in them <...> using a wooden peg.

 

Well, i have no issue to seal honey inside a wine barrel as far i can tell. Alternatives are nice, but it do seems to be the easy way so far.